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Coronavirus (Covid-19) Discussion

I do think my country (U.S.A.) needs to start arresting people who are out that aren't essential. "But ma FREEDOM!" they scream. Yeah fun fact about law enforcement these idiots may not get, you endanger other people's safety cops are allowed to take your freedom away, it's kind of part of their job. Shocking I know! Who'd of thunk? And spreading this virus is endangering others.
 

DeftMonk

Noob
Lianghubbb ok ya that video kinda sucks but raise your hand if your from a country where there aren't videos of cops doin shitty shit to citizens even without this virus....I see china catching a lot of flack about this thing like zomg dont trust china or china better pay up!!! This shit is absurd. If trump is saying this "china virus" bull shit to go after china for something when this is over shit gonna get real ugly tho I can tell you now.

Like I am also well aware this virus is from China but if world leaders refer to it in that way it promotes a certain form of behavior to chinese living in USA atm by people who support him. He knows that and he doesn't care. I just feel its not really necessary.
 
Maryland just enacted a stay at home order, violating is a misdemeanor charge. It disallows traveling out of state. Virginia Gov is about to have a similar press conference and it's expected he'll do the same. In particular enforcement focusing the surrounding DMV area around the capital.

My SO and me live on the Maryland and Virginia border of DC respectively... I don't think we'll see each other for a long time...
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
But, who is to say it was spread by chinese people traveling or foreigners coming here to make money (like myself). Also china locked down waaaaay harder than USA. I bet if you guys go outside now you will still see people not wearing masks which is silly. I do however think that China probably fibbed about their numbers in wuhan. That isn't that great and may be one reason other countries didn't take it so seriously.
I was not referring to Chinese people. I was referring to the Chinese government likely downplaying cases and deaths in Wuhan as you suggest.

Trump needs to worry about his own response before he holds anyone else ‘accountable’. It would be laughably hypocritical when he did exactly the same thing.
I mention Trump because America is the most influential country in the world. Which other country would hold the Chinese government accountable?

By the way, interesting study by the Pew Research Center of "% of U.S. adults who say Donald Trump is doing an excellent job at responding to the coronavirus outbreak, by main source of political news."

Fox News: 63%
CBS: 24%
NBC: 15%
ABC: 14%
CNN: 7%
MSNBC: 2%
NPR: 2%
New York Times: 1%


:rolleyes:
 

Marlow

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
I'm still not sure how "holding China accountable" makes sense, but even if the goal is to hold them accountable for doing a poor job of reporting I'm not sure how the US would even hold them accountable. They could try some economic sanctions of some kind, but China would likely return in kind, and then it's just another pointless Trade War. Any type of unilateral move is going to be hard, it would likely take a number of countries working together to try and get China to change. Working together with other countries hasn't been something the current administration has been too fond of.
 
I'm still not sure how "holding China accountable" makes sense, but even if the goal is to hold them accountable for doing a poor job of reporting I'm not sure how the US would even hold them accountable. They could try some economic sanctions of some kind, but China would likely return in kind, and then it's just another pointless Trade War. Any type of unilateral move is going to be hard, it would likely take a number of countries working together to try and get China to change. Working together with other countries hasn't been something the current administration has been too fond of.
Tariffs are what first came to mind for me, but as you point out, it'd need to be more of a global effort doing this than just a single country.

Overall though, I'd say the world should focus on:

a) controlling the infections within their own respective borders
b) roll out a working vaccine (yes, I know this will take 12 to 18 months) and give it time to inoculate the various populations
c) then, once COVID-19 is no longer the major, global-stopping concern that it is now, start figuring out if it's warranted to assign blame and how to prosecute that if it is
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I mention Trump because America is the most influential country in the world. Which other country would hold the Chinese government accountable?
Maybe a country that didn’t call the virus a hoax and no big deal, and then state that everything was under control and the response was great while refusing to accept highly needed tests and letting the virus explode domestically.

Or maybe a country where people can actually reliably get tests 2 months into their epidemic.

Maybe a country that acted as a nation to shut things down and safeguard their citizens, rather than issuing “guidelines” while people hang out and continue to spread the virus and travel/fly to other places.

Maybe... Not the US. The hypocrisy would be real.
 

portent

Noob
refusing to accept highly needed tests
Much of what you posted was decent info, but this part, however, while true, is spun to make your point. Let's be honest though, the reason these were refused was because many of the tests developed in other countries (China in particular) were producing false positives.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/03/16/cdc-who-coronavirus-tests/

There is no disputing this.

I fully support not accepting potentially flawed tests, regardless of where they come from, be it internationally or domestically.
 

portent

Noob
Anything a Nation would do to hold China accountable would most likely involve Sanctions that only fuck over the common people. Shit is nightmarish & not the kind of Garbage we need & “holding China accountable” should be one of the last things on anyone’s mind.
I agree wholeheartedly. No need to play the blame game. They're the country with the MOST experience right now. We should be harnessing that, instead of driving them away by blaming them.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Much of what you posted was decent info, but this part, however, while true, is spun to make your point. Let's be honest though, the reason these were refused was because many of the tests developed in other countries (China in particular) were producing false positives.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/03/16/cdc-who-coronavirus-tests/

There is no disputing this.

I fully support not accepting potentially flawed tests, regardless of where they come from, be it internationally or domestically.
The WHO’s tests were based on the German design, not the Chinese ‘instant test’ that is giving the false positives. They were perfectly fine and accepting them would have saved time and lives.

It was our CDC tests that were also flawed, not the WHO’s. Read your article again.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Maybe a country that didn’t call the virus a hoax and no big deal, and then state that everything was under control and the response was great while refusing to accept highly needed tests and letting the virus explode domestically.

Or maybe a country where people can actually reliably get tests 2 months into their epidemic.

Maybe a country that acted as a nation to shut things down and safeguard their citizens, rather than issuing “guidelines” while people hang out and continue to spread the virus and travel/fly to other places.

Maybe... Not the US. The hypocrisy would be real.
I am not defending Trump, merely listing facts. I believe Trump's rhetoric (as always) could have been much, much better, but you had much rather criticize Trump instead of the Chinese government because, I assume, you dislike the person and his politics. He has just signed the largest stimulus bill in U.S. history. He also implied in yesterday's briefing that he would consider signing another bill to assist Americans.

In order to safeguard citizens, Trump suggested quarantining New York as some presidents of European countries have done, but people on the left fought this agenda for political reasons.

Because infections and deaths vary by state, responsibilities lie within the governor of each state. Governor DeWine has protected Ohioans. He was one of the first ones in the country to close all public places, including schools. In fact, he has announced to continue the closure until the first of May.

Trump, just like any other president, cannot do everything and not everything is his fault.
 

portent

Noob
The WHO’s tests were based on the German design, not the Chinese ‘instant test’ that is giving the false positives. They were perfectly fine and accepting them would have saved time and lives.

It was our CDC tests that were also flawed, not the WHO’s. Read your article again.
I did read the article. Read my response. I said I fully support not accepting flawed tests regardless of their origin. I know that flawed tests came from multiple locations, including domestically.
 
There should absolutely be conditional sanctions on China if their wildlife market which caused this continues to be unregulated (which it is despite China's current "response").

In China you can still buy some pangolin that's been sitting in a stack of cages while getting shit and pissed on by sloths, bats and raccoons. We can hold Trump accountable for his awful lack of leadership and still hold China accountable at the same time.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I am not defending Trump, merely listing facts. I believe Trump's rhetoric (as always) could have been much, much better, but you had much rather criticize Trump instead of the Chinese government because, I assume, you dislike the person and his politics. He has just signed the largest stimulus bill in U.S. history. He also implied in yesterday's briefing that he would consider signing another bill to assist Americans.

In order to safeguard citizens, Trump suggested quarantining New York as some presidents of European countries have done, but people on the left fought this agenda for political reasons.

Because infections and deaths vary by state, responsibilities lie within the governor of each state. Governor DeWine has protected Ohioans. He was one of the first ones in the country to close all public places, including schools. In fact, he has announced to continue the closure until the first of May.

Trump, just like any other president, cannot do everything and not everything is his fault.
Yeah, this type of piecemeal approach does not work in an epidemic like this, and it’s why every other country that’s serious about this (including ones as big as India) has issued a national order for a coordinated response.

The issue is threefold: one, the spread of this virus is exponential, not linear. This means that by the time an individual state or region of the country goes from “Oh, we don’t have so many cases” to “Hmm, this might be a problem” it’s far too late. You absolutely cannot wait — the models that we have which are successful worldwide at preventing a flood of cases nationwide are ones where the federal government responded aggressively and immediately to all cases. This is not in dispute.

The second major issue is testing. We actually don’t know how many cases are in each area, because we haven’t been testing nearly as many people per capita as we should be. In NY, for example, we’re on the record as having 60k cases. But I haven’t been able to get a test. Neither has anyone I know. Thus the official count, which is mostly from hospitalized people, does not accurately reflect the situation. This is likewise true in states which believe they only have several hundred cases, but mathematically are likely to have several thousand already.

The third issue is that we have no controls on travel between states or borders, which means that it’s hard for us to track the movement of people who might be sick. So even if your state shuts down, if the state next door doesn’t shut down, there are people flowing back and forth, which makes it a lost cause. If say, NYC is closed but Connecticut is open and people are flowing back and forth, the response is a mess and that’s exactly the kind of situation that’s playing out across the nation right now.

I cannot state this clearly enough — we need a coordinated and uniform response here, and that needs to be led by the federal government, just like it has everywhere else. For every day that goes by with a piecemeal shutdowns, and “Oh maybe we’ll close this part of the country down eventually, when it gets bad”, we exacerbate the problem, waste time, and ultimately waste lives.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
I cannot state this clearly enough — we need a coordinated and uniform response here, and that needs to be led by the federal government, just like it has everywhere else.
"Everywhere else" does not have a population of 330 million. Before you mention China and India, one is a communist country with no checks and balances. And in the other, police whack people in the streets with sticks. How do you think Americans would respond if Trump ordered police departments to assault citizens who are seen walking or jogging publicly?

Speaking of police departments, police officers are most likely to get infected after medical staff. Dermot Shea, the New York Police Commissioner, postulates that "900 NYPD members will be positive for coronavirus by Monday [today]" (source). So who is going to enforce your "coordinated and uniform response" if local police departments are understaffed? Will Trump have to involve the U.S. Armed Forces? If so, what will be the public reaction?

You offer simplified solutions to a complicated crisis in a country that has 330 million people. A small European country like Serbia only has 7 million residents so they can control people and the virus much, much easier than the U.S. can.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
There should absolutely be conditional sanctions on China if their wildlife market which caused this continues to be unregulated (which it is despite China's current "response").

In China you can still buy some pangolin that's been sitting in a stack of cages while getting shit and pissed on by sloths, bats and raccoons. We can hold Trump accountable for his awful lack of leadership and still hold China accountable at the same time.
That is exactly it. It blows my mind that the Chinese government isn't solely being blamed for the spread of the virus to other countries when they allow markets in which bats, snakes, sloths, raccoons, mice, and weird ass animals like that, which are covered in blood, shit, piss, and other wonderful fluids, to be killed, butchered, and sold ALL AT THE SAME PLACE to exist. Blame Trump for doing a bad job in America, sure, I can absolutely get behind this. Buuuuuuuuut this virus didn't just come out of nowhere, no I don't think terms like "Chinese virus" are helpful, but come the fuck on. I hate to break it to you guys but racist pricks were gonna be racist even if these terms weren't being used. Isn't it a little fucking ridiculous that we rely on other places for stuff like masks? That nobody in the white house since H1N1 thought we should have supplies in case of another epidemic?

I think people (Americans in particular) are getting away from the fact that the coronavirus a) exists because of the DISGUSTING wet markets and b) is as bad as it is in America because of YEARS of poor preparation AND the president's poor decision making.
 
E

Eldriken

Guest
“Don’t talk about politics.”

Proceeds to let M2Dave and Crimson talk about politics.
If you had read the rest of the thread, you'd have found more discussion about this as it was already brought up. I addressed it, Juggs addressed it and Crimson addressed it. A certain degree of politics is unavoidable when discussing this because of what it pertains to. But when it starts heading in another direction that has nothing to do with this overall, that's where we draw the line because people are even uglier when discussing that than they are over this.

Perhaps this clarification was missing from the initial post that stated no discussion of politics, but I believe M2Dave himself called it into question and then received a response clearing it up. It's a slippery slope because we don't want to make people feel necessarily censored, but we also don't want people going feral because of certain political views/beliefs.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
At this juncture of where we’re at with COVID-19, I personally don’t see how focusing so much on who to blame is really helpful. To be honest, there’s plenty of blame to go around. As far as I’m aware, not a single country was necessarily prepared for this. And certainly not prepared for a pandemic of this magnitude.

It’s very reminiscent of the 9/11 effect in a way. Where we were not at all prepared for something like that to happen. But since then, many different measures and precautions have been taken to decrease the likelihood of it happening again.

I personally feel that our main focus at this time as really the entire human species should be on slowing the curve of spreading, working on medicine to alleviate symptoms, and ultimately working towards having a reliable vaccine (cure).

Which means we need to determine the best course of action to help prevent the spreading and exponential growth of COVID-19. I realize some of the best measures we could have taken are now too late. But that’s pointless to me to even discuss. That part of the solution is no longer an option. Also, it’s very difficult to track this virus. Not only is COVID-19 spreading rapidly, we simply can’t have 100% reliable accurate numbers on this. We need proper logistics, which may not even be possible at this point.

As someone who is nowhere close to an expert on the matter, I feel like we have constantly been playing catch up since the first case was confirmed in America. Again, we can play the blame game all day, but what good does it really do at accomplishing our goals at the moment?

All I can really ask at this time is to continue taking the proper precautions. Stay at home unless you absolutely need to leave the house. Wash your hands diligently and consistently. Wear N95 masks out in public, as well as using gloves if you have access to either. Stay 6ft away from people and practice social distancing. Cover your face with your arm when you sneeze and/or cough. When soap and water are not available, use hand sanitizer as often as needed. Do not travel unless it’s an emergency!