Buff thread only for Captain Cold

[Mikemetroid]

Well I think that Swamp Thing should have moves tha-

oh...

 

[Nexallus]

I would seriously trade the Overhead hitting Iceberg to be a mid Iceberg if it meant that f233 (I think) could be a cancellable hard knockdown.

It would be great to have some type of midscreen block pressure to build meter for some of his cool stuff, no pun intended.

 

[Tanno]

I think you misunderstood my post.

-I'm not talking about doing combos, I mean if you're jumping with, say, jump 1 and you want to land a blockstring, it can be difficult to avoid getting pointed out with that minimal frame advantage. This change would solve that
-I meant Frost Field, which is df3. The mb one does freeze the opponent if they are in it too long, I just want the regular one to slow the opponent if they are in it
-I mean Frosted Tips, which is the first level of his character power. The bf1 would become more powerful with this charge because he could have a average damaging projectile while having less damage done to him from other projectiles, so he'd win trades

Thanks for clarifying it.

Now that makes sense about the B232.

IMO, the Frosted Tips (B4) is fine. It was meant for against the CQC chars. I didn't include the rest, because they seemed fine as they are.

And I should have read my OP again to understand what you meant about the DF3. Sorry. No, this only freeze the opponent, if stayed long (4secs max).

Well I think that Swamp Thing should have moves tha-

oh...

lol.

It's to avoid this mess, and I respect @CrimsonShadow 's decision to lock the general buff/nerf threads. He asked that we open the buff/nerf threads only for an individual fighter at the proper thread area.

 

[kevkopdx]

I will be careful on this, but the other characters already have 50/50, like Firestorm. It's just in case some very good CQC players get close to him. :/

firestorm? lol his 50/50 needs to be done point blank, needs to be meterburned to combo and the overhead does nothing, just block low

 

[RoboCop]

@Tanno thanks for having the balls to make this thread. People are going to shit on it, but whatever, I would just ignore them. A forum is for discussion; if anyone disagrees with these changes, instead of just shitting on it, how about you discuss what you do and don't agree with? There is nothing inherently wrong will a reasonable nerf/buff thread.

That said, I agree that Cold's strings could use some tweaks, particularly his all-high string. I get that it's useful in combos, but so is Superman's f23... I don't know if he needs a low-hitting string, but maybe his non-meter-burned low shot could be made less unsafe.

I wish his Death-Cicles worked like every other top-down block-advantage projectile in NRS games (Tremor's rocks, Sektor's Missiles, Shang's Skulls, etc). Make them faster and make them relative to the opponent (neutral calls it right on top of them, or you can hold a direction to call in front or behind). That would eliminate the insane spacing requirements and full-screen "safety zone".

His ice wall (db2) is nice, but yeah it's definitely inconsistent in what it protects him from. Honestly, maybe they should just rework it. If they want it to actually act as a defensive "shield", maybe they should just give him actual invincibility frames while it's out. That could end up being overkill, but at least then it would actually do its job against Adam's Lightning, Cyborg's Roomba, and other weird and unique attacks.

Right now I think his biggest problem is dealing with characters who don't have to respect his ice puddle. It is incredibly powerful against characters that do have to respect it, but it's a total non-issue in many matchups. In these matchups, Cold has extremely limited options while his opponent can just kind of do whatever they want. I'm talking Firestorm, Adam, Aquaman, Superman, Batman; anyone with a strong ranged presence. He needs some way to contend with these characters because once puddle is a non-issue, his other tools just aren't picking up enough slack.

Does anyone use his Blue Sphere move (sorry, don't know the actual names of any of his specials...)? The recovery is ass compared to the payoff. Whereas Atro can hit you with four DoT plasma shots in one combo and take a painful chunk of health, Cold throws one sphere on the screen with all the grace of a drunken quadriplegic and the opponent is just like "ok..." and walks backwards. You'd think it would be useful in corner setups, but it's way too easy for it to end up outside the bounds of the stage. It should automatically not be allowed to go further than the corner. It should also maybe do a bit more damage. Yeah, they stack, but getting the opponent to sit in one sphere is bad enough, much less trying to get out multiple spheres without the opponent just moving away or punishing the insane recovery. They should either remove the ability to stack and increase the overall damage/utility, or they should make it easier to get effective stacks on the screen.

One more idea about the spheres is if they made them just little mini versions of his level 2 trait, except the standard sphere couldn't freeze the opponent. So standard sphere would still have that "slow" effect and deal DoT, while mb.sphere would do those as well as freeze the opponent.

Let's talk trait. Hoo boy. Cold's trait can do some pretty cool things (no pun intended), but compare it to other "charge" traits like Batman, Superman, Harley, and Canary, none of which have to manually charge or recharge their traits, and you see how lackluster it is. To get it going, he's got to give up all of his other setups and put himself at great risk, all to hopefully land a single hard-to-blockable setup before having to charge it again. Why does he have to manually recharge it when the arguably better traits charge automatically?

His trait is also a bit of a catch-22: He honestly doesn't need it against the characters who have to respect puddle, and he can't get it out in the matchups where it would be useful. When fighting the Banes, Cheetahs, and Canaries of I2, I would much rather keep them locked down with puddle, death-cicles, and ice shots, all while building decent meter, than stand there like an idiot tinkering with my gun, gaining no meter and letting these rushdown machines get in on me.

For Frosted Tips, this could actually be the best opportunity to balance him against the heavy zoners that give him the most trouble. While something like full projectile immunity would be overkill, maybe it gives him armor against projectiles. So he still takes the damage, but without hitstun he can continue to get out attacks and setups that trade well. Could still end up being overkill, but it would definitely help his current bad matchups without making his good matchups any more lopsided.

 

[JDF9799]

Dont need a 50/50 to be good. Black atom, aquaman super man and batman all dont have true 50/50's and their fine. Be careful asking for safe 50/50's and better projectiles #ihatedeadshot

I haven't really played Superman and Aquaman, but I have played a lot of the other 2.

Black Adam doesn't have any combo starting 50/50's but he does a little more damage than Captain Cold and isn't meter reliant. Also, what is the frame data difference between Adam's F1,2 and Cold's F2, 3 (their main combo starters)? That could also make a difference.


Batmans only low/overhead starter is B1, 1, but his jump 2 is godlike. Enough said. XD But seriously, his jump 2 is amazing. That alone is a great mixup tool. Which side is it gonna hit on? Is it gonna cross you up?

 

[South]

How about this..
1) make his air float a base move set ? Allowing him mobility...
2) make his 12, combo into specials...
3) make his all high hitting string (high, mid, mid) and +1 on block ?...
4) make his trait charge ..15% faster?

 

[omooba]

cold does not need overhead low 50/50's like there's no character who just needs to have that. i don't play the character so i don't really know but he seems fine. only thing i'd change is make the cold air thing more useful in the corner

 

[Nexallus]

Does anyone use his Blue Sphere move (sorry, don't know the actual names of any of his specials...)? The recovery is ass compared to the payoff.

They should either remove the ability to stack and increase the overall damage/utility, or they should make it easier to get effective stacks on the screen.

They honestly feel like such a useless ability. Perhaps someone better than me has found a good use for them, but I would rather have them replaced with the air hover.

I like the idea of most of your suggested changes, but I think all of them combined could be a bit overkill (I could be wrong though).

 

[Marinjuana]

I like your guys suggested buffs but I think he should have more 50/50s and his level 2 trait should be absolutely bananas levels of broken, while we're at it make all his plus strings start mid. Then maybe with air platform and shoulder of cold he'll be alright.

 

[Hiyomoto]

I don't get why people say, "why would I charge to 3?" CB may be ass but the start up on cold blast isn't. I don't think 12 puddle should link. 213 0 on block. I also disagree with the icicle buff, it's plus 50 (forgot exact number)Dropping it directly on someone is over the top. It's meant to be dropped where you think your opponent will walk to, that's why you can drop two so quickly.

 

[BigMacMcLovin]

Everyone wants a 50/50.

As if that same 50/50 dependency wasn't the worst thing about MKX

 

[Tanno]

They honestly feel like such a useless ability. Perhaps someone better than me has found a good use for them, but I would rather have them replaced with the air hover.

The DF3 would be useful, if it had distance control, like the icicles do. It's very rarely used, as it's too risky, and everyone will know instantly what it is and will avoid it. Would be an amazing OKI along with the Glacier Grenade (trait level 2 - F4) to force them to get frozen in the corner. :/

 

[RoboCop]

I also disagree with the icicle buff, it's plus 50 (forgot exact number)Dropping it directly on someone is over the top. It's meant to be dropped where you think your opponent will walk to, that's why you can drop two so quickly.

The actual block-advantage of the Death-Cicles is a bit like Batman's trait; It's only +50 in that Cold recovers 50 frames before the opponent would recover once hit by the attack; If you set the opponent to block and jump, you can see that they jump almost immediately after being struck; there is almost zero actual block advantage. This means it is not nearly as useful as an actual +50-on-block attack, as it can't be used to setup any real additional damage. The only way to get damage from it is to try to set up an overhead/low hard-to-blockable, in which case any block advantage is moot.

As far as dropping them right on top, yes, in theory Cold should need to predict how the opponent should move and drop the cicles accordingly. However, the gaps between the possible ranges are so extreme that the opponent doesn't actually have to guess; anytime they see Cold use a death-cicle, they can just move into a range where they know it is impossible for them to be hit (or they can just stand full-screen). They can do this on reaction 100% of the time.

The relational drop would still work how you describe the current cicles; in fact, it would work in your preferred way better than the current cicles. Just like with Tremor, Sektor, and others, you would have to guess whether your opponent would stand still, move forward, or move backward. However, now they too must guess which distance you chose, rather than having mile-long gaps that make them immune to all options.

 

[Hiyomoto]

The actual block-advantage of the Death-Cicles is a bit like Batman's trait; It's only +50 in that Cold recovers 50 frames before the opponent would recover once hit by the attack; If you set the opponent to block and jump, you can see that they jump almost immediately after being struck; there is almost zero actual block advantage. This means it is not nearly as useful as an actual +50-on-block attack, as it can't be used to setup any real additional damage. The only way to get damage from it is to try to set up an overhead/low hard-to-blockable, in which case any block advantage is moot.

As far as dropping them right on top, yes, in theory Cold should need to predict how the opponent should move and drop the cicles accordingly. However, the gaps between the possible ranges are so extreme that the opponent doesn't actually have to guess; anytime they see Cold use a death-cicle, they can just move into a range where they know it is impossible for them to be hit (or they can just stand full-screen). They can do this on reaction 100% of the time.

The relational drop would still work how you describe the current cicles; in fact, it would work in your preferred way better than the current cicles. Just like with Tremor, Sektor, and others, you would have to guess whether your opponent would stand still, move forward, or move backward. However, now they too must guess which distance you chose, rather than having mile-long gaps that made them immune to all options.

When you end a combo in the corner with the two icicle set up, won't it be plus 50 if they wake up block it?

 

[RoboCop]

When you end a combo in the corner with the two icicle set up, won't it be plus 50 if they wake up block it?

No, because it's based on the time that Cold recovers. So while the in-game frame-data is correct in that if an opponent blocks it, Cold will have recovered 50 frames earlier than them, he had recovered before it actually appeared at the top of the screen, so basically he's already using up those 50 frames of advantage waiting for the cicle to connect. By the time it connects, all that advantage is gone and the opponent is free to react.

 

[RiBBz22]

I don't get why people say, "why would I charge to 3?" CB may be ass but the start up on cold blast isn't. I don't think 12 puddle should link. 213 0 on block. I also disagree with the icicle buff, it's plus 50 (forgot exact number)Dropping it directly on someone is over the top. It's meant to be dropped where you think your opponent will walk to, that's why you can drop two so quickly.

Do you seriously believe the frame data in this game without doing any sort of testing yourself? Do you seriously respect the icicle on hit for nearly a full second? You should answer No regardless of what you really do.

 

[Rooks]

People blocking low non-stop are subject to getting thrown a ton by Cold. His staggers into throw are pretty good overall, so you need to make your opponent respect that first.

My number one FIX is d+1. The hitbox needs to be larger as it whiffs on Green Lantern, Black Adam, and the other floaters. I get their animations have them in weird positions but with this whiffing pressure becomes a joke. If needed make a completely new animation that lets opponents see its true range.

Faster charge wouldn't hurt as we could spend more time setting up icicle pressure and other setups, more than 25% seems over kill.

-Frost Field now slows the opponent while they are in its area of effect (I can't remember if it does this now, but it should, seeing as how it's like a mini cold grenade field. Slowing down a melee character, even for a second, can be really good)
-Frosted Tips now does a damage reduction in addition to DOT damage to opponent (Gives FT more general use, but most importantly, gives him the edge to win zoning wars by out-damaging other projectiles with his own)

I think those are good enough to accentuate his strengths to tough out some of his weaknesses. He's then be able to Tip up and win projectile wars by attrition and go for riskier things like trait charge without fear of a huge loss of life

Both of these seem fair. I especially like the armor to off set the trait charge risk. Damage reducation solely on projectiles seems the best way to go.

Honestly feel like most of my loses come from either lack of MU knowledge or bad choices, aside from losing zoning wars. I don't think we need 50/50's but would def be for a low starter string and another mid; not sure that would change too much tbh. This is coming from some one who plays online only and does not care about win ratio just having fun.

 

[TarkatanDentist]

I still remember being dismayed when I realised that you can't jump on top of his MB ice block. If they were able to change that, that would be amazing.

That b232 also needs at least one mid in it - having a string which is three highs in succession just feels ridiculous in a game like Injustice lol.

 

[_xFriction]

12~puddle mb works
no gap in f23
trait starts at lvl 2, slight increase in charge rate

and if i can be greedy for a moment... puddle can be placed at various distances

 

[RoboCop]

12~puddle mb works
no gap in f23
trait starts at lvl 2, slight increase in charge rate

and if i can be greedy for a moment... puddle can be placed at various distances

Ooh, puddle at various distances would be dirty. It'd really help against characters like Aquaman that are just able to completely keep him out of puddle range.

 

[Tanno]

12~puddle mb works
no gap in f23
trait starts at lvl 2, slight increase in charge rate

and if i can be greedy for a moment... puddle can be placed at various distances

12xxPuddle doesn't work. They block it. Try this with the AI being in auto-block. :/

 

[_xFriction]

12xxPuddle doesn't work. They block it. Try this with the AI being in auto-block. :/

yes, those are the buffs i'd like.

 

[RoboCop]

12xxPuddle doesn't work. They block it. Try this with the AI being in auto-block. :/

Ha, I thought the same thing when I started reading, but he's saying that it should work that way, not that it does work that way.

 

[Tanno]

yes, those are the buffs i'd like.

Ha, I thought the same thing when I started reading, but he's saying that it should work that way, not that it does work that way.

This is why I suggested more cancel frames to make it work, gentlemen.