Blue Beetle Match Up Discussion

[Sesal Snow]

Updated.

 

[Vex]

I really cannot wrap my head around Beetle vs Wowo being 5-5. Can you explain that a little?

 

[AkioOf100]

I really cannot wrap my head around Beetle vs Wowo being 5-5. Can you explain that a little?

Yeah it feels moreso in Wonder Woman's favor if you ask me. I don't know exactly how to play that matchup to my favor. Wonder Woman's bracelets are a great answer for BB's zoning, and a good WW will do them on reaction. Her up close can really lock beetle down, so you're gonna have to hope for some power blade action to connect. Her d2 gets rid of basically everything Beetle has as far as flight shenanigans. And her wakeups mitigate his setups.

 

[Sesal Snow]

I really cannot wrap my head around Beetle vs Wowo being 5-5. Can you explain that a little?

I don't understand why it would not be neither character has a big advantage against the other.
Beetle can keep Wonderwoman out pretty well with his zoning because of the quick recovery, if you read a shield toss you can jump in into a air dash from fc and punish. Trait help's a ton in this mu helps deal with her decent footsie's.
Her wake up is not that great she has to go for the charge option which is not a true wake up other wise you will whuff punish her uppercut with a d2 and start your oki game which is strong.
Damage wise she doe's a little more damage than you.
She can parry the projectiles however any smart Beetle will bait this out and stagger the projectiles making it extremely tough to parry on reaction.

 

[AkioOf100]

I don't understand why i t would not be neither character has a big advantage against the other.
Beetle can keep Wonderwoman out pretty well with his zoning because of the quick recovery, if you read a shield toss you can jump in into a air dash from fc and punish. Trait help's a ton in this mu helps deal with her decent footsie's.
Her wake up is not that great she has to go for the charge option which is not a true wake up other wise you will whuff punish her uppercut with a d2 and start your oki game which is strong.
Damage wise she doe's a little more damage than you.
She can parry the projectiles however any smart Beetle will bait this out and stagger the projectiles making it extremely tough to parry on reaction.

I can see this. I still think it's a bit of downplay though? Because you're depending on the WW making errors in almost all of these examples. Remember we're looking at this from the perspective of two extremely competent players. Staggering projectiles just means staggering parries. Punishing an uppercut means that the WW was doing d2 in the neutral without you being in the air, which clearly isn't that smart of a thing to do for a very good WW? Idk. Maybe it is 5-5. I just think it's really hard for Beetle to be dominant in any place at all in this matchup, while WW can literally keep BB locked in the corner with her ranged, anti-airing, plus-framed normals and very good footsies.

At the same time I think BB has a very good answer for shield toss with energy cannon and mandible strike. Outside of that, I think BB really struggles in the corner against WW, while WW's invincible wakeups (although punishable if read, like just about every wakeup in this game minus a few) do make it hard for BB to keep pressure going.

 

[Sesal Snow]

I can see this. I still think it's a bit of downplay though? Because you're depending on the WW making errors in almost all of these examples. Remember we're looking at this from the perspective of two extremely competent players. Staggering projectiles just means staggering parries. Punishing an uppercut means that the WW was doing d2 in the neutral without you being in the air, which clearly isn't that smart of a thing to do for a very good WW? Idk. Maybe it is 5-5. I just think it's really hard for Beetle to be dominant in any place at all in this matchup, while WW can literally keep BB locked in the corner with her ranged, anti-airing, plus-framed normals and very good footsies.

At the same time I think BB has a very good answer for shield toss with energy cannon and mandible strike. Outside of that, I think BB really struggles in the corner against WW, while WW's invincible wakeups (although punishable if read, like just about every wakeup in this game minus a few) do make it hard for BB to keep pressure going.

Ok stagger the projectiles is a viable option bec it means they have to respect the fact that you could fake it and go in for pressure so doing this is to keep them aware that you making them play how you want them to.
I did not say punish her d2 I said punish her with YOUR d2 its 6f's and is a clean punish for stuffing her wakeup which is very easily done.
Her + strings have gaps in that you can take advantage of by either choosing to escape or apply your pressure after dealing with the gap.
Her corner game is nice yes but one thing is once you block anything she has thrown at you its your turn. You can interactable/roll out of the corner or apply your pressure.
This mu is really not as difficult as some of you guys make it out to be.
It's quite tame but requires some patience from both players.
For the most part if Beetle has the life lead he can just play keep away and make her come in even if she's getting parry's she still has to come in.

 

[AkioOf100]

Ya I guess I can see that. I misread the d2 comment. I guess I'll have to lab stuffing WW's stuff.

I could be wrong. I don't think it's completely in WW's favor, I just think it's really tough for Beetle to deal with.

 

[Sesal Snow]

Ya I guess I can see that. I misread the d2 comment. I guess I'll have to lab stuffing WW's stuff.

I could be wrong. I don't think it's completely in WW's favor, I just think it's really tough for Beetle to deal with.

I understand this she's a good char and a lot of people struggle against her.
I believe I have put in enough time to be able to safely say that this is in nobody's favor.
At first I thought that it was in her favor I struggled but after grinding the MU a lot more I started to realize that she has to come to you to deal her damage and using this you can make her play your game.
Oki can be more tricky against her bec you have to decide which wake up to stuff similar to the Swampthing MU but I feel that that's not a huge issue.

 

[Espio]

Nobody has a dominant position in a match up in 5-5's. You have entirely too many ways to mix up your jump in for her to be reliably anti-airing you. Not to mention Beetle on air to airs and anti-airs definitely keeps her honest. Up close is super even. Sweep wrecks parry. Beetle can check her after MB shield on block due to the pushback. Wonder Woman is a pure footsies match up, you're over thinking it. If her wake ups are unsafe that's relevant. I beat Wonder Woman players just using projectile stance so if you're using blades too you should handle her fine. It's momentum and lifelead based. I feel wowo has a harder time chasing when down than Beetle especially since his back walk speed helps him walk out of range of some of her shield based attacks. The razzle dazzle Beetle everyone wants to play isn't for this match up, save the free styling for Brainiac or someone else that is also extra lol.

 

[Tony at Home]

If the Beetle vs Batman matchup is "6-4 but 5-5 when he has bats" wouldn't it just be a 5-5?

Not like Batman suffers from his trait being difficult to get out.

(Edit, cant find who i was replying to)

 

[AkioOf100]

WW players think they beat us tho. Like if they feel strong in the matchup and we feel it's 5-5 but definitely difficult doesn't that say something...

 

[Tony at Home]

Is there an optimal stance per each match? I generally have one in my head I like to go to for each match- like Canon for Robin, Blades for Wonderbread- and Blades in the corner no matter who.

I'd be interested to see a breakdown of that per character alongside matchup numbers

 

[Sesal Snow]

Is there an optimal stance per each match? I generally have one in my head I like to go to for each match- like Canon for Robin, Blades for Wonderbread- and Blades in the corner no matter who.

I'd be interested to see a breakdown of that per character alongside matchup numbers

You should always use both stances in every mu.
This keeps the options open and your opponent has to deal with both kinds of play style.
The blade stance has extremely strong oki game great footsies and range.
The fist stance has the zoning and shield pressure you need to utilise both of these stances in pretty much all mu's

 

[Espio]

WW players think they beat us tho. Like if they feel strong in the matchup and we feel it's 5-5 but definitely difficult doesn't that say something...

The Wonder Woman players I've played think it's 5-5 so what does that prove? Nothing. I'd rather not speak in generalities as that doesn't help anyone. You don't gotta agree, but maybe you should at least consider what people are telling you that play good Wonder Woman players and got the match up down. I have zero issues with her for a reason.

I know a lot of people don't wanna think about the idea that maybe, just maybe they don't got it down and are playing a match up sub optimally. It's an uncomfortable thought, but it should at least be considered.

I've been incorrect about match ups before because I did not play them right, but I was self aware enough to either: adapt my style of play or listen to people who were doing better than I was in said match up.

Everyone is so convinced that they're playing every match up to the best of their ability or to the best of Blue Beetle's abilities.

 

[AkioOf100]

I swear to you I am not insinuating at all that I or the wonder woman is the best wonder woman or blue beetle. Nor did I even put that in any of my comments.. I'm just asking that we look at it from both perspectives. And maybe for tips to play it better.

 

[Espio]

I swear to you I am not insinuating at all that I or the wonder woman is the best wonder woman or blue beetle. Nor did I even put that in any of my comments.. I'm just asking that we look at it from both perspectives. And maybe for tips to play it better.

It's not about being the best with the character, you can be right about match ups without being the best, you didn't read what I wrote clearly. That is not the point of the post/topic, stating people agree with you is not compelling or a new perspective that needs to be analyzed.

 

[Vex]

I think it'll be best if I could view some match footage of the wowo matchup. Honestly, I really cannot get behind the 5-5, but who knows maybe I'm playing the mu wrong

 

[Espio]

I think it'll be best if I could view some match footage of the wowo matchup. Honestly, I really cannot get behind the 5-5, but who knows maybe I'm playing the mu wrong

I have footage on my YouTube channel in the Injustice 2 playlist because it means more to see it in practice than in theory. You could be totally right, nobody has to agree on every mu. 4-6 and 5-5 are both extremely winnable so it's not like it makes or breaks anything.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Why does Blue Beetle beat Doctor Fate? None of us Fate players see it as a losing MU.

 

[Sesal Snow]

Why does Blue Beetle beat Doctor Fate? None of us Fate players see it as a losing MU.

Because we can counter zone very well, we also get around Fate's zoning very easily with our mobility. The damage difference is not a lot between them and Beetle can stuff Fate's wake up easy with his oki game.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Because we can counter zone very well, we also get around Fate's zoning very easily with our mobility. The damage difference is not a lot between them and Beetle can stuff Fate's wake up easy with his oki game.

Fate definitely wins the zoning battle, BB is very mobile but he won’t wanna fly too close because Fate’s B2 and J1 anti airs.

 

[Sesal Snow]

Fate definitely wins the zoning battle, BB is very mobile but he won’t wanna fly too close because Fate’s B2 and J1 anti airs.

Beetle can mb projectile and orb with an air dash. Beetle can definitely counter zone well because of the air shot
and he can bait b2 very easily with the jump foward flight cancel into air shot its used to bait all anti air moves.

 

[Vex]

Fate definitely wins the zoning battle, BB is very mobile but he won’t wanna fly too close because Fate’s B2 and J1 anti airs.

At full screen Beetle definitely zones out Fate. Our projectile recovers fast whereas yours doesn't. Therefore, when we both shoot at relatively same time, you get hit, we get to block

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Fate shouldn’t be getting hit or even trading full screen, and if he is trading it’s in his favor, more so if he’s in trait. Amon Ra Blast has good recovery and hits a mid. From full screen he can definitely duck BB’s projectile and you have to take chip from his because it’s a mid. Especially in trait. Even so he will be getting in Ankh calls, BB won’t want to stay full screen.

BB can counter zone enough to not get shredded but not enough to win from alone. If Fate doesn’t win, it’s even imo.

 

[Sesal Snow]

The aim is not to trade at all it's to counter zone between. The air shot allow's for more meter build and chip against fate to. Beetle can hover over all of fates projectiles on reaction at full screen so he does not have to block them as often.