Blue Beetle Match Up Discussion

[buyacushun]

Catwoman matchup probably has a lot to do with J.2, her good mobility, and her dashing slash. Whip his ass right out of the air. Might even get a bit better with it being angled more upwards. The nerfs to her armor and wakeup will hurt quite a bit though.

I still got to play more of the MU but I'm not prepared to say CW wins yet. Even slightly.

 

[beatlejuice]

I see a lot of people say BB beats Atros but I don't see it!

Would love to fight a competent BB to see for myself

Atai has a good blue beetle

 

[pfiidud3]

Regardless of accuracy (which I'm not a good judge of) this is already the best matchup chart for both being alphabetically ordered and color coded.

Curious about Darkseid vs Beetle. This is my pain point matchup with Beetle. As I can't do alot of my float bullshit, and who outzones who feels like whoever got the last knockdown.

At mid screen, I think you can shoot and trade projectiles decently.... However, a lot of darkseid matches I go into trait and just wait/react. He missed a laser? bf3 punish. He teleported? d2 him out of the air with dat trait range.

 

[Sesal Snow]

Updated for this current patch.
Please feel free to critic me.
Many thanks.

 

[TurboTaco]

Updated for this current patch.
Please feel free to critic me.
Many thanks.

your chart is bad and you should feel bad

 

[buyacushun]

Harley Quinn is 5/5 play worse people. I think catwoman might be 5/5. Need to play it more.

How do you play the GA MU?

 

[EntropicByDesign]

I'm seriously not trying to be rude but I read in so many MU threads where someone literally says 'i don't ever play this MU but this one time I did I won/lost so I don't see how the MU is winning/losing' etc. Seriously? I'm the worst player on this site and I know better than to call a MU number until I've ground the shit out of it.. and against more than one player. Everyone plays differently. I have PEOPLE I can't beat who play characters I can, and vice versa.

Sorry to derail. Super nice chart, very optimistic and we'll researched. Easy to read and make sense of.

Its extremely nice to see a character that's often not even on some people's radar (though I feel like he's noticed more now) having a MU chart worthy of a top 10 character. Indicative of the games balance right now imo.

 

[Sesal Snow]

Harley Quinn is 5/5 play worse people. I think catwoman might be 5/5. Need to play it more.

How do you play the GA MU?

your chart is bad and you should feel bad

Lol I hate you two.
This is going to be so out of context for those who are not in the Discord.

 

[DubiousShenron]

@Sesal Snow is da shiznet and so are his MUs charts.

 

[Zoidberg747]

I know it's kinda early but I don't see how Starfire doesn't beat beetle.

 

[Espio]

I know it's kinda early but I don't see how Starfire doesn't beat beetle.

Do you play Starfire? If so we can play and I can show you the match up.

It would be more advantageous if you gave reasons why it isn't 5-5. There's nothing to really counter argue. I play both characters so I will give my views.

Blue Beetle's ground zoning out damages hers, meaning most damage trades are in his favor. MB blast is extremely useful in this match up as well as it knocks her down and even if you happen to do trait, you have to hold the blast and get punished. Once you eat your 10-11% off that, we regain zoning advantage again. We also have a unique ability to get around her beams that many other characters do not possess at all and can force zoning hesitation. She has options to deal with flight, but you still force her to have to make a lot of additional reads to snipe you and he can bait her with empty jumps, flight cancelled into fall down etc.

Then there's the up close game. Her post blocked shield bash game isn't good at all. Forward 2 and standing 3, her two fast advancing buttons lose to down 1 shield bash or alternatively if he decides to launch for a full combo he can if you attempt those. She can just walk away and the down 1 whiffs, but then there's no challenge involved.

Her air dash is meh too and Beetle's projectile recovery is so fast that it can be very hard for her to navigate in on his zoning without simply walking in on a life lead.

Up close he does fine against her since he can chip her safely and he is very good at armor breaking her MB back 3/forward 3 and her hitbox is weird so sometimes he passes right through her making them both whiff so there's no risk in that exchange since she is in recovery frames too, he can recover to be safe.

The only reason why she doesn't outright lose is because of her great damage, she has some air options to keep him honest and a pretty good set of anti-airs, otherwise this would be 6-4 for sure.

 

[AK Harold]

Pretty solid chart. I really do feel BB is one of the best characters in the game still from a MU perspective. I'd maybe move a few of the swing match ups closer to 5-5.

I really think batman is even as well.
BB can zone against batman fairly well gaining meter.
You have a solid answer to his j2 with instant air to air + cancel or d2.
On knockdown you can destroy batman pretty badly as your jump arc avoids his up batarang shenanigangs
His slide is god awful on wake up.
Really he can contest up close and make beetle block for a long time. But as long as you are solid and are at a 40ms or less connection you shouldn't get opened up by too much damage.
You should be able to control neutral to a point where it is oppressive.
If you opt for blade you get free jumps on batman pretty much and you can heavily contest mid range options.
Also he can't just mb and dash in for free meter anymore due to his nerfs.
But he IS batman so you gotta hold it at a 5-5.
I still lose to batman cuz of the player though.

Dead shot I think you can blade stance for the most part on him once you get a knockdown.
He cannot contest air superiority except with errant air to airs which he has to predict not react if you got blades.
He will out meter you which feels awkward as a BB player when you start the match.
This swings the other way once you get in assuming the Deadshot player blocks.
Your 50/50 loops on him. whereas his just forces you to play around the bullet hell.

 

[Sesal Snow]

Pretty solid chart. I really do feel BB is one of the best characters in the game still from a MU perspective. I'd maybe move a few of the swing match ups closer to 5-5.

I really think batman is even as well.
BB can zone against batman fairly well gaining meter.
You have a solid answer to his j2 with instant air to air + cancel or d2.
On knockdown you can destroy batman pretty badly as your jump arc avoids his up batarang shenanigangs
His slide is god awful on wake up.
Really he can contest up close and make beetle block for a long time. But as long as you are solid and are at a 40ms or less connection you shouldn't get opened up by too much damage.
You should be able to control neutral to a point where it is oppressive.
If you opt for blade you get free jumps on batman pretty much and you can heavily contest mid range options.
Also he can't just mb and dash in for free meter anymore due to his nerfs.
But he IS batman so you gotta hold it at a 5-5.
I still lose to batman cuz of the player though.

Dead shot I think you can blade stance for the most part on him once you get a knockdown.
He cannot contest air superiority except with errant air to airs which he has to predict not react if you got blades.
He will out meter you which feels awkward as a BB player when you start the match.
This swings the other way once you get in assuming the Deadshot player blocks.
Your 50/50 loops on him. whereas his just forces you to play around the bullet hell.

Yeah I totally agree with both your points.I am kind of at the same dilemma with Batman as Supe's I don't quite know where to put him at. From my experience I put it as a loss just because every Batman I have faced has been able to deal with all the tool's that I have. Most Batman's I face will get in take the life lead then stay back with 1 bat out whilst waiting and ducking my projectiles. You are totally right though and as I have said this is from my long ass grinding at each match up from my own experience so far and it is defiantly subject to change as time goes on.

 

[AkioOf100]

I think his inconsistent hitboxes change a lot of these numbers.

Not to knock him down or anything like if his hitboxes are working properly then he's definitely amazing, but if you're going against a female character that has low profiling attacks then you lose. His overheads even whiff on them.

 

[ForeverKing]

Ok so this is where I get blown up.
Just from my experience with each MU.
Obviously subject to change with each balance patch.

.My Blue Beetle Match up Chart.

Aquaman 5/5
Atrocitus 6/4
Bane 6/4
Batman 4/6
Black Adam 5/5
Black Canary 6/4
Blue Beetle 5/5
Brainiac 6/4
Captain Cold 6/4
Catwoman 4/6
Cheetah 6/4
Cyborg 4/6
Darkseid 5/5
Deadshot 4/6
Dr Fate 6/4
Firestorm 6/4
Flash 5/5
Gorilla Grodd 6/4
Green Arrow 5/5
Green Lantern 5/5
Harley Quinn 4/6
Joker 6/4
Ivy 6/4
Red Hood 5/5
Robin 6/4
Scarecrow 5/5
SubZero 6/4
Supergirl 5/5
Superman 5/5
Swampthing 6/4
Wonderwoman 5/5



14 Winning MU's
12 Even MU's
5 Loosing MU's

Please discuss.

Patch 1.07 (Current patch)



Aquaman 5/5
Atrocitus 6/4
Bane 6/4
Batman 4/6 - 5/5 (DEBATABLE)
Black Adam 5/5
Black Canary 6/4
Blue Beetle 5/5
Brainiac 5/5
Captain Cold 5/5
Catwoman 5/5
Cheetah 6/4
Cyborg 5/5
Darkseid 5/5
Deadshot 4/6
Dr Fate 5/5
Firestorm 6/4
Flash 5/5
Gorilla Grodd 6/4
Green Arrow 5/5
Green Lantern 5/5
Harley Quinn 5/5
Joker 6/4
Ivy 6/4
Red Hood 5/5
Robin 6/4
Scarecrow 5/5
Starfirw 5/5
SubZero 6/4
Supergiril 5/5
Superman (In my opinion) 5/5 - I can see why people say it's a loss however) 4/6 (DEBATABLE)
Swampthing 6/4
Wonderwoman 5/5



11 Winning MU's
19 Even MU's
2 Loosing MU's

Please discuss your thought's for this patch thanks.

If the top matchup chart was true he'd probably be top 10 in the game. If the bottom matchup chart was true he'd be top 5

 

[AkioOf100]

If the top matchup chart was true he'd probably be top 10 in the game. If the bottom matchup chart was true he'd be top 5

He actually might be tbh. He doesn't lose a lot of matchups at all. He just has small fixes he needs (not really buffs, FIXES). I main BB and he does completely fine against a lot of characters. He has a lot of tech that is not on the internet aside from setups. He's great

 

[pfiidud3]

He actually might be tbh. He doesn't lose a lot of matchups at all. He just has small fixes he needs (not really buffs, FIXES). I main BB and he does completely fine against a lot of characters. He has a lot of tech that is not on the internet aside from setups. He's great

Missing tech? like? LIKE?!?!

 

[Espio]

If the top matchup chart was true he'd probably be top 10 in the game. If the bottom matchup chart was true he'd be top 5

Yeah, I don't think he loses so few match ups or beats all those characters but I think he's still pretty solid overall, mostly losing to characters who do it better and he doesn't have any super hard counters, but also doesn't destroy any character himself.

Gorilla Grodd: 6-4
Poison Ivy: 6-4
Joker: 6-4
Atrocitus: 6-4
Starfire: 6-4
Bane: 6-4
Black Canary: 6-4
Swamp Thing: 6-4
Sub-Zero: 6-4


Black Manta: 5-5
Cheetah: 5-5
Firestorm: 5-5
Cyborg: 5-5
Wonder Woman: 5-5
Supergirl: 5-5
Dr. Fate: 5-5
Robin: 5-5
Flash: 5-5
Black Adam: 5-5
Raiden: 5-5
Harley Quinn: 5-5
Catwoman: 5-5
Aquaman: 5-5
Red Hood: 5-5
Brainiac: 5-5
Green Lantern: 5-5
Captain Cold: 5-5


Batman: 4-6
Darkseid: 4-6
Green Arrow: 4-6
Deadshot: 4-6
Superman: 4-6
Scarecrow: 4-6

 

[Sesal Snow]

Yeah, I don't think he loses so few match ups or beats all those characters but I think he's still pretty solid overall, mostly losing to characters who do it better and he doesn't have any super hard counters, but also doesn't destroy any character himself.

Gorilla Grodd: 6-4
Poison Ivy: 6-4
Joker: 6-4
Atrocitus: 6-4
Starfire: 6-4
Bane: 6-4
Black Canary: 6-4
Swamp Thing: 6-4
Sub-Zero: 6-4


Black Manta: 5-5
Cheetah: 5-5
Firestorm: 5-5
Cyborg: 5-5
Wonder Woman: 5-5
Supergirl: 5-5
Dr. Fate: 5-5
Robin: 5-5
Flash: 5-5
Black Adam: 5-5
Raiden: 5-5
Harley Quinn: 5-5
Catwoman: 5-5
Aquaman: 5-5
Red Hood: 5-5
Brainiac: 5-5
Green Lantern: 5-5
Captain Cold: 5-5


Batman: 4-6
Darkseid: 4-6
Green Arrow: 4-6
Deadshot: 4-6
Superman: 4-6
Scarecrow: 4-6

I have not been playing as much lately but if I was to update this chart I would pretty much agree with espio's above minus the 4-6 mu to Scarecrow and Darkseid.

 

[pfiidud3]

I disagree with Darkseid as well, but I don't think I'm confident enough to chime in on MU charts most of the time.

 

[AkioOf100]

Missing tech? like? LIKE?!?!

Outside of crossup setups, a lot of his flight cancels are plus on block, like inside of his pressure (save his j1, which is neutral on block). Which guarantees a d1, d2 (dnt do this..), standing 3, probably other moves i havent listed.

His 13 flight cancel diagforward j2 is a 50/50 depending on when you do the j2 (left or right) and both get you a full combo into a setup or just max dmg.

The 33 crossup setup on a kd is 0 on block.
For optimal damage off of an air to air you can (after the air to air), f23 f3 into whatever ender you want.

After any string into blue cheerio (his projectile xD) you're +15, jailing into his b2 (overhead which is 15 frames) or df1 (low which is 9 frames). Both are punishable but its a guaranteed jailing 50/50 in the corner. In midscreen, it jails into his 14 frame f2, which you can cancel into shield bash if they block, or if you're feeling risky, cancel it into df1 for the full combo, or f23.

He has a lot of frame traps and stuff that I don't really get to see on videos or even in high level matches.
Makes it really fun to play him and difficult for other characters to deal with. Top 15 imo.

 

[pfiidud3]

13fcj2 - I know this says 'cross up' in training, but you make this sound more consistent than it actually is imo. (various back stepping speeds and various sized hitboxes make this vary quite a lot)

33 on block is punishable. and on hit, it (idealy) it combos, So can you explain this further?

Your spot on with the Cherio frame trap. This is good stuff. However, I only find myself doing this when I'm mid screen and out of meter. If I have meter, I tend to go for guaranteed damage (as you build it back fast). If you find yourself doing this in the corner, I would recommend going into 21 d1 shield bash. This gives them plenty of opportunities to be impatient, and guarantees you quite a bit of shave damage even if they block.

(also, you can end combos in b1 bf2mb for advantage, though its only +2)

 

[AkioOf100]

13fcj2 - I know this says 'cross up' in training, but you make this sound more consistent than it actually is imo. (various back stepping speeds and various sized hitboxes make this vary quite a lot)

33 on block is punishable. and on hit, it (idealy) it combos, So can you explain this further?

Your spot on with the Cherio frame trap. This is good stuff. However, I only find myself doing this when I'm mid screen and out of meter. If I have meter, I tend to go for guaranteed damage (as you build it back fast). If you find yourself doing this in the corner, I would recommend going into 21 d1 shield bash. This gives them plenty of opportunities to be impatient, and guarantees you quite a bit of shave damage even if they block.

(also, you can end combos in b1 bf2mb for advantage, though its only +2)

I'm sorry I should have elaborated. The 33 crossup setup on block is 0 because you're forcing them to block the last active frame, which also gives you cancel advantage, allowing you to force a jailed df1 (on the other side). If they block that, this is unsafe. But if you've conditioned them to block the df1 you can begin throwing out the b2 (overhead) because you're 0 on block and they're looking for the 9 frame low (which was previously much quicker than 9 frames i believe).

I would do 21 d1 shieldbash, but I found it too inconsistent with the hitboxes. Sometimes the first or second hit will whiff, leaving me negative OR plus depending on which one hit first. But I do throw it in there sometimes.

I won't say his 13fcj2 (slightly forward version) isn't inconsistent, but it works a lot of the time on unsuspecting opponents. When you've conditioned them to begin blocking the crossup (or if they begin neutral ducking it). You can start throwing out the 13fcj2 (instant down cancel) for the overhead and for the pressure. Then, if they begin getting out of that pressure (by using a 6 or 7 frame normal), you can start finishing the 1321+3 string to make them start respecting it again.

It's another mindgame on top of the hundreds that he already has. He has looping pressure into +15 restands into 50/50s into more pressure into high damage into more pressure into 50/50s into +15 restands, etc. It's not just an "on paper" thing either, it's very doable once you practice it.

 

[Sesal Snow]

I'm sorry I should have elaborated. The 33 crossup setup on block is 0 because you're forcing them to block the last active frame, which also gives you cancel advantage, allowing you to force a jailed df1 (on the other side). If they block that, this is unsafe. But if you've conditioned them to block the df1 you can begin throwing out the b2 (overhead) because you're 0 on block and they're looking for the 9 frame low (which was previously much quicker than 9 frames i believe).

I would do 21 d1 shieldbash, but I found it too inconsistent with the hitboxes. Sometimes the first or second hit will whiff, leaving me negative OR plus depending on which one hit first. But I do throw it in there sometimes.

I won't say his 13fcj2 (slightly forward version) isn't inconsistent, but it works a lot of the time on unsuspecting opponents. When you've conditioned them to begin blocking the crossup (or if they begin neutral ducking it). You can start throwing out the 13fcj2 (instant down cancel) for the overhead and for the pressure. Then, if they begin getting out of that pressure (by using a 6 or 7 frame normal), you can start finishing the 1321+3 string to make them start respecting it again.

It's another mindgame on top of the hundreds that he already has. He has looping pressure into +15 restands into 50/50s into more pressure into high damage into more pressure into 50/50s into +15 restands, etc. It's not just an "on paper" thing either, it's very doable once you practice it.

This is all nice however the 13 fc can be d2'ed if you choose to follow up with a doff the fc and the d1 I believe off of this is -1-0 I dont think its neutral all the time.
Another thing to add is I do like the +15 restand with the bf2 ender but I feel its not worth the damage drop off you can get more into a combo and still end in a high b1 which is still more than + for a follow up you can make it +11 I believe at max height.
I do agree though beetle has a ton of tools that people just don't utilise I have said from day one that he is a very good char high mid or even low high tier.

 

[AkioOf100]

This is all nice however the 13 fc can be d2'ed if you choose to follow up with a doff the fc and the d1 I believe off of this is -1-0 I dont think its neutral all the time.
Another thing to add is I do like the +15 restand with the bf2 ender but I feel its not worth the damage drop off you can get more into a combo and still end in a high b1 which is still more than + for a follow up you can make it +11 I believe at max height.
I do agree though beetle has a ton of tools that people just don't utilise I have said from day one that he is a very good char high mid or even low high tier.

Only certain characters can d2 out of 13fc pressure other characters have to either jab or d1 depending on their frame data and hit boxes. The frame gap is 7 frames with a j2 off of flight cancel and 6 frames with a j1 off of flight cancel (with an extra gap if you choose to follow up with a high afterward, it resets the neutral, 0 on block).

(What is a doff? Sorry kinda new to some of this terminology)

Yes it is very plus at max height and jails into his high if done optimally off of his most high damaging restand.
The damage kinda doesn't matter imo because if you're plus 15 you get guaranteed pressure into 50/50s (b2 or df1) which both get you a combo OR another setup OR both. Blue Beetle isn't meant to be high damaging (in my opinion), you're supposed to pressure them for the meter build + to open them up and then expend all that meter on damage if you want to, but if not you can just restand for plus frames and more pressure into more mix.

I don't think it's as "overrated" as people say, I think his mix is truly genuine and an actual mind game.
Some hitboxes do change my results though, so I can't say everything I say is 100% set in stone.

I think he's low high tier imo. Top 15 or 10.