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Blue Beetle Match Up Discussion

Espio

Espio

Kokomo
Feeling saucy today at work:

Black Canary: 6-4
Atrocitus: 6-4
Sub-Zero: 6-4
Gorilla Grodd: 6-4
Joker: 6-4
Captain Cold: 6-4
Poison Ivy: 6-4
Starfire: 6-4
Bane: 6-4

Swamp Thing: 5-5
Black Adam: 5-5
Cheetah: 5-5
Red Hood: 5-5
Hellboy: 5-5
Brainiac: 5-5
Robin: 5-5
Dr. Fate: 5-5
Aquaman: 5-5
Wonder Woman: 5-5
Batman: 5-5
Raiden: 5-5
Catwoman: 5-5
Green Lantern: 5-5
Deadshot: 5-5
Harley Quinn: 5-5
Flash: 5-5
Black Manta: 5-5
Cyborg: 5-5
Supergirl: 5-5

Scarecrow: 4-6
Darkseid: 4-6
Green Arrow: 4-6
Superman: 4-6
Firestorm: 4-6
 
jcbowie

jcbowie

...more deadly than the dawn.
How is Firestorm vs. Beetle not a 5-5? Beetle can contend with FS' zoning, outfootsies FS, and has at least as good if not better mobility. All FS has is better damage and reset potential. FS' trait is nasty, but BB can kinda use his air mobility to prevent FS from getting openings while traited up.
 
Espio

Espio

Kokomo
jcbowie said:
Also, why do you figure he doesn't absolutely demolish Deadshot now? At least 6-4?
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Because I don't subscribe to the idea that Deadshot automatically loses to everyone he previously decisively beat prepatch.

6-4 isn't demolished and it sure isn't 7-3. If you have a case you'd like to make, please do make it. I'm all ears.

jcbowie said:
How is Firestorm vs. Beetle not a 5-5? Beetle can contend with FS' zoning, outfootsies FS, and has at least as good if not better mobility. All FS has is better damage and reset potential. FS' trait is nasty, but BB can kinda use his air mobility to prevent FS from getting openings while traited up.
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Maybe it is, but I'm not currently convinced since it was 5-5 prepatch and Firestorm got significantly stronger with his trait which impacts life leads, set play and damage in addition to a better air to air.

Firestorm has always had answers to his mobility and honestly, it's not as if I have it as 7-3 or something. 6-4's are very winnable and it is all subject to change. I just don't see how the match up has changed zero when Firestorm has changed in very relevant ways to the match up.
 
jcbowie

jcbowie

...more deadly than the dawn.
Espio said:
Because I don't subscribe to the idea that Deadshot automatically loses to everyone he previously decisively beat prepatch.

6-4 isn't demolished and it sure isn't 7-3. If you have a case you'd like to make, please do make it. I'm all ears.

Maybe it is, but I'm not currently convinced since it was 5-5 prepatch and Firestorm got significantly stronger with his trait which impacts life leads, set play and damage in addition to a better air to air.

Firestorm has always had answers to his mobility and honestly, it's not as if I have it as 7-3 or something. 6-4's are very winnable and it is all subject to change. I just don't see how the match up has changed zero when Firestorm has changed in very relevant ways to the match up.
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You seem defensive about the nature of these matchups. I didn't mean to sound accusatory, Just questioning.

It seems like BB beats Deadshot in every way now. Strong zoning in the face of nerfed WS, better 50/50's, better mobility, better combo damage, better footsies... really almost better everything, for real. I do feel like BB is a very strong character now and Deadshot fairly weak. Maybe demolished is bad phrasing? But it could be 7-3, I dunno, and that would be demolished.

Both FS and BB's buffs look like they've put them at about the same level. Giving BB damage buffs on a lot of conversions across the board gives him a comparable advantage to making FS' trait more easily accessible. FS' j1 change doesn't really contribute much to his contending with BB. A real AA is the best way to deal with BB's air mobility so unless you make a good read it's still hard to deal with as FS since he has no AA, especially with the great air projectile. BB wins neutral if FS is out of trait, but deals less damage, and FS wins neutral with trait out, and it seems like momentum will carry one or the other to the w.

I didn't say anything about 6-4's being intensely unbalanced, I'm just saying these two matchups seem to give BB more advantage than what's noted.
 
Sesal Snow

Sesal Snow

Exorcist, Demonologist and Master of the Dark Arts
I would have to agree with @Espio on those two mu's.
Deadshot pre patch was a tough fight for Beetle it was about a 6-4 mu only bec Deadshots meter build and recovery on his straight shot where slightly better than Beetle's. They both have 50/50's and very good zoning options so Deadshot pre patch just played the same game as Beetle but better. Now that he has been nerfed the mu has not changed stupendously Deadshot can still react to and flight cancel's he can still zone well not as good as before he definitely has to play a lot smarter but I feel that the slight advantage that he had is now gone and they both play on a pretty level playing field. Beetle want's to get in he zone's and does fc's to build meter allowing him to get his big damage into oki once he gets in. Deadshot can still stop this from happening his zoning is still there its just not brain dead pew pew pew anymore.

As for Firestorm before the patch as Espio mentioned it was a 5-5 but it was a tough 5-5. Now with the new buffs its a little more tricky still. Firestorm can react to a flight cancel with an instant air torpedo and now that he has trait a lot more often anytime Beetle gets hit its going to hurt a lot more. One of the great things about Beetle is his meter build as I mentioned with Deadshot so before pusblocking or mb rolling combos was great in this mu. Now your having to do this a lot more against Firestorms pressure from his traited combos that come out more often. As Espio also mentioned the life lead is a huge factor in this mu and now with the buffs to trait he can sit on a life lead a lot more comfortably.

All in all The buffs that got given to Beetle are great but they did not change the way the character played they just gave him better scaling on a lot of his conversion. Both of these mu's are played the same the reason that people feel the mu number has changed is bec the buffs or nerfs that were given the opposing chars force them (Deadshot) or allow them to play a different way with good success still.

(sorry if my typing makes no sense in anyways it has only occurred to me that I have had 3 hours sleep in 2 and a half days. I will try to elaborate later on)
 
Espio

Espio

Kokomo
jcbowie said:
You seem defensive about the nature of these matchups. I didn't mean to sound accusatory, Just questioning.

It seems like BB beats Deadshot in every way now. Strong zoning in the face of nerfed WS, better 50/50's, better mobility, better combo damage, better footsies... really almost better everything, for real. I do feel like BB is a very strong character now and Deadshot fairly weak. Maybe demolished is bad phrasing? But it could be 7-3, I dunno, and that would be demolished.

Both FS and BB's buffs look like they've put them at about the same level. Giving BB damage buffs on a lot of conversions across the board gives him a comparable advantage to making FS' trait more easily accessible. FS' j1 change doesn't really contribute much to his contending with BB. A real AA is the best way to deal with BB's air mobility so unless you make a good read it's still hard to deal with as FS since he has no AA, especially with the great air projectile. BB wins neutral if FS is out of trait, but deals less damage, and FS wins neutral with trait out, and it seems like momentum will carry one or the other to the w.

I didn't say anything about 6-4's being intensely unbalanced, I'm just saying these two matchups seem to give BB more advantage than what's noted.
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I mean you haven't presented anything that is compelling so there would be no need for me to be defensive. Blue Beetle has been a strong character, this patch didn't make him strong, people just listen to what everyone else tells them instead of being critical thinkers or being rational about characters/match ups. 2% and reduced whiff recovery on shield bash didn't make him jump. Deadshot can keep up just fine in a footsie battle and has good, fast air normals. Beetle has characters like Black Canary that he actually beats at all ranges that he doesn't 7-3, Deadshot has more than wrist cannon for projectiles. He has projectiles that cover multiple approach trajectories. There's no reason for it to be 7-3 in my opinion, if you think it is that's your right to feel that way.


Beetle does 2% more damage on some combos, which is not comparable to Firestorm getting trait a minimum of 2 times as much as he used to. Firestorm has always had torpedo and starfish to check his aerial game and Firestorm is one of the few characters that can punish whiffed shield bash from pretty much anywhere on the screen since molten trap is 17 frames and he gets a full combo as a result. The match up is not the same as it was. Beetle didn't get buffs that actively hinder Firestorm's game. Then there's the reset/restand scenarios that allow him to negate wake up too. I have Beetle losing few match ups and am very quick to say a match up isn't losing. If something changes my mind, I will quickly reevaluate my stance.

Nothing is set in stone as the patch hasn't been out that long so it's not like these won't or don't have potential to evolve.
 
AkioOf100

AkioOf100

I play Raph
I think beetle does okay in both mu’s. Both 5-5 at the highest level. Maybe slightly in beetle’s favor in regards to deadshot.

Firestorm does have gr8 options to our mobility but a beetle that plays the lame game can do very well with claws up close. He does out damage us tho. Slightly in his favor but ion see it being that much harder for us than it is for him.
 
Sesal Snow

Sesal Snow

Exorcist, Demonologist and Master of the Dark Arts
AkioOf100 said:
I think beetle does okay in both mu’s. Both 5-5 at the highest level. Maybe slightly in beetle’s favor in regards to deadshot.

Firestorm does have gr8 options to our mobility but a beetle that plays the lame game can do very well with claws up close. He does out damage us tho. Slightly in his favor but ion see it being that much harder for us than it is for him.
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IrishMantis

IrishMantis

Most humble shit talker ever!!!
Espio said:
Feeling saucy today at work:

Black Canary: 6-4
Atrocitus: 6-4
Sub-Zero: 6-4
Gorilla Grodd: 6-4
Joker: 6-4
Captain Cold: 6-4
Poison Ivy: 6-4
Starfire: 6-4
Bane: 6-4

Swamp Thing: 5-5
Black Adam: 5-5
Cheetah: 5-5
Red Hood: 5-5
Hellboy: 5-5
Brainiac: 5-5
Robin: 5-5
Dr. Fate: 5-5
Aquaman: 5-5
Wonder Woman: 5-5
Batman: 5-5
Raiden: 5-5
Catwoman: 5-5
Green Lantern: 5-5
Deadshot: 5-5
Harley Quinn: 5-5
Flash: 5-5
Black Manta: 5-5
Cyborg: 5-5
Supergirl: 5-5

Scarecrow: 4-6
Darkseid: 4-6
Green Arrow: 4-6
Superman: 4-6
Firestorm: 4-6
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Nice list but I disagree with Atros it's 5-5 imo
 
jcbowie

jcbowie

...more deadly than the dawn.
Espio said:
I mean you haven't presented anything that is compelling so there would be no need for me to be defensive. Blue Beetle has been a strong character, this patch didn't make him strong, people just listen to what everyone else tells them instead of being critical thinkers or being rational about characters/match ups. 2% and reduced whiff recovery on shield bash didn't make him jump. Deadshot can keep up just fine in a footsie battle and has good, fast air normals. Beetle has characters like Black Canary that he actually beats at all ranges that he doesn't 7-3, Deadshot has more than wrist cannon for projectiles. He has projectiles that cover multiple approach trajectories. There's no reason for it to be 7-3 in my opinion, if you think it is that's your right to feel that way.


Beetle does 2% more damage on some combos, which is not comparable to Firestorm getting trait a minimum of 2 times as much as he used to. Firestorm has always had torpedo and starfish to check his aerial game and Firestorm is one of the few characters that can punish whiffed shield bash from pretty much anywhere on the screen since molten trap is 17 frames and he gets a full combo as a result. The match up is not the same as it was. Beetle didn't get buffs that actively hinder Firestorm's game. Then there's the reset/restand scenarios that allow him to negate wake up too. I have Beetle losing few match ups and am very quick to say a match up isn't losing. If something changes my mind, I will quickly reevaluate my stance.

Nothing is set in stone as the patch hasn't been out that long so it's not like these won't or don't have potential to evolve.
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I agree that this patch isn't what made BB strong, he was already solid, but it absolutely knocked DS down a ton. There's different reasons for BB's Black Canary matchup being what it is and DS' new matchups being much worse due to the core of his playstyle being altered. I didn't say I necessarily thought it was a 7-3 at all, I would say it's certainly in BB's favor after the DS nerfs and with BB's neutral being what it is now with additional damage, even if it's in small increments.

Incidentally, I don't think 2% added damage on bnb's for a character with the neutral strength, setup potential, and mix of BB is a small difference at all. He already gets in very efficiently, and now those quick little conversions do more damage? That's something to consider now, playing risky against BB just got more dangerous. If we'd gotten to keep 2% more on our Cyrax bnb's in MKX it would have affected some matchups I think.

Same reasoning behind FS basically, not that FS and BB is somehow particularly affected as a matchup, but the added strength of BB's damage relative to his already strong neutral and zoning make him generally more threatening. A lot of the reason the pre-patch matchup between the two was what it was came from the way FS' damage balanced out with BB's neutral strength. Now that FS' neutral has gotten improvements (an additional trait activation per match) and BB's damage and safety have gotten a boost, they are in comparable states. I think that's pretty fair.

Also yeah, I agree it's early for these ideas to be set in stone, just presenting reasons why those matchups might be better for BB.
 
AkioOf100

AkioOf100

I play Raph
Tbh FS controls neutral v well and can check tf out of beetle for anything. We also have sorta similar up close. Now I can see why, in practice, Firestorm actually beats beetle.
 
jcbowie

jcbowie

...more deadly than the dawn.
AkioOf100 said:
Tbh FS controls neutral v well and can check tf out of beetle for anything. We also have sorta similar up close. Now I can see why, in practice, Firestorm actually beats beetle.
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FS' footsies aren't nearly as good as BB and his lesser mobility and startup times hurt him in neutral versus BB. All BB has to do is use air mobility effectively and zone while FS has trait and you've nullified his mix potential, but if BB gets caught it's trademark FS big damage.

I don't see how BB's superior mobility, superior mix, and quickness of startup don't give him at least an even matchup with FS.
 
AkioOf100

AkioOf100

I play Raph
jcbowie said:
FS' footsies aren't nearly as good as BB and his lesser mobility and startup times hurt him in neutral versus BB. All BB has to do is use air mobility effectively and zone while FS has trait and you've nullified his mix potential, but if BB gets caught it's trademark FS big damage.

I don't see how BB's superior mobility, superior mix, and quickness of startup don't give him at least an even matchup with FS.
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Starfish n neutral control check him alot. Firestorm outdamages him. Firestorm's normals aren't really why he controls the match, it's all specials imo.
 
AkioOf100

AkioOf100

I play Raph
jcbowie said:
FS' footsies aren't nearly as good as BB and his lesser mobility and startup times hurt him in neutral versus BB. All BB has to do is use air mobility effectively and zone while FS has trait and you've nullified his mix potential, but if BB gets caught it's trademark FS big damage.

I don't see how BB's superior mobility, superior mix, and quickness of startup don't give him at least an even matchup with FS.
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Starfish n neutral control check him alot. Firestorm outdamages him. Firestorm's normals aren't really why he controls the match, it's all specials.

I think they're pretty even up close tho. Beetle can check Firestorm's staggers but firestorm gets higher reward off of a hit.
 
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