Blue Beetle Match Up Discussion

[pfiidud3]

Sesal is trying to say the same thing I am.... that gun shot is leaving a lot of dmg on the table.... unless you are out of meter.... in which case, frame trap away imo. (ill take 400+ dmg over 150 dmg and a 50/50)

 

[Sesal Snow]

Basically why not take the guaranteed damage from the combo then restand them rather than dropping a combo for a restand.

 

[AkioOf100]

Basically why not take the guaranteed damage from the combo then restand them rather than dropping a combo for a restand.

Because guaranteed pressure + meter build is better because than the neutral because when you're both 0, depending on the character, most of the time beetle is going to lose up close (unless ur a huge risk taker and start mashing random buttons, or your opponent is extremely respectful).

Sure the guaranteed damage is great if you're going against a character who you're barely going to be able to open up. But if you're going against someone in the corner, blue beetle is amazing and probably beats a lot of the cast just by being plus on that restand. They respect the plus frames most of the time (if not you can condition them to, because most of the time the high is going to jail on 13) and you will still win and loop it over again. They have to find their turn YET AGAIN. And when you start opening them up ENOUGH you can go for 450+ dmg (on superman) INTO a restand and loop it again, gain the meter, re-do it, resets, etc.

He doesn't just have these restands for no reason in my opinion. They're a key point of his gameplay and they make him a fucking menace in the corner. And you even start conditioning them with throws.. making them whiff throws tech attempts, and then you get another punish, into restands, into more conditioning, into more mixups. Plus frames, even though they're not actually spoken about enough, are everywhere on blue beetle's list.. and they're veeeryy important.

If you have 15 frames and all of your mix is 15 frames or less, that's clearly important. You get an overhead or a low into a full combo. You get an overhead or an overhead into a full combo. You get a raw low into a full combo. Or you get 13 flight cancel j2 pressure or you don't get pressure you just get the 1321+3 string and now they have to respect your pressure. You get 111 bf2, you're +15 again, they start disrespecting you? Fine. Any string into bounce cancel? There's 500 dmg for you, into a restand (more or less on diff characters). And you're back in the loop again.

 

[Sesal Snow]

Because guaranteed pressure + meter build is better because than the neutral because when you're both 0, depending on the character, most of the time beetle is going to lose up close (unless ur a huge risk taker and start mashing random buttons, or your opponent is extremely respectful).

Sure the guaranteed damage is great if you're going against a character who you're barely going to be able to open up. But if you're going against someone in the corner, blue beetle is amazing and probably beats a lot of the cast just by being plus on that restand. They respect the plus frames most of the time (if not you can condition them to, because most of the time the high is going to jail on 13) and you will still win and loop it over again. They have to find their turn YET AGAIN. And when you start opening them up ENOUGH you can go for 450+ dmg (on superman) INTO a restand and loop it again, gain the meter, re-do it, resets, etc.

He doesn't just have these restands for no reason in my opinion. They're a key point of his gameplay and they make him a fucking menace in the corner. And you even start conditioning them with throws.. making them whiff throws tech attempts, and then you get another punish, into restands, into more conditioning, into more mixups. Plus frames, even though they're not actually spoken about enough, are everywhere on blue beetle's list.. and they're veeeryy important.

If you have 15 frames and all of your mix is 15 frames or less, that's clearly important. You get an overhead or a low into a full combo. You get an overhead or an overhead into a full combo. You get a raw low into a full combo. Or you get 13 flight cancel j2 pressure or you don't get pressure you just get the 1321+3 string and now they have to respect your pressure. You get 111 bf2, you're +15 again, they start disrespecting you? Fine. Any string into bounce cancel? There's 500 dmg for you, into a restand (more or less on diff characters). And you're back in the loop again.

But you still get the frametraps with the full damage.

 

[AkioOf100]

But you still get the frametraps with the full damage.

I'm not understanding. If you're not doing a restand how are you getting frame traps

No disrespect or anything I'm just a bit confused. Are you agreeing with my statement? Because you can do a lotttt of damage while still frame trapping with 2 bars, after you do all of your cycling pressure and setups, while gaining a bar during the combo.

 

[Sesal Snow]

I'm not understanding. If you're not doing a restand how are you getting frame traps

No disrespect or anything I'm just a bit confused. Are you agreeing with my statement? Because you can do a lotttt of damage while still frame trapping with 2 bars, after you do all of your cycling pressure and setups, while gaining a bar during the combo.

ok so ending in the b1 bf2 restand has very limited uses it does not work on alot of combo's or confirms.
The point that I was making is you can get a full 400+ damage combo end in a b1 thats high enough to still make it +10 or more.
A lot of the combos that end in b1 bf2 are cut short to make sure that the b1 puts them at the right height for the bf2 not to high otherwise you don't get the restand and not to low otherwise it whiffs.
There is absolutely a time to use this don't get me wrong but all I was saying I would try cash out on a 400+ combo into restand and pressure than the cut short b1 bf2 restands when possible.

 

[AkioOf100]

ok so ending in the b1 bf2 restand has very limited uses it does not work on alot of combo's or confirms.
The point that I was making is you can get a full 400+ damage combo end in a b1 thats high enough to still make it +10 or more.
A lot of the combos that end in b1 bf2 are cut short to make sure that the b1 puts them at the right height for the bf2 not to high otherwise you don't get the restand and not to low otherwise it whiffs.
There is absolutely a time to use this don't get me wrong but all I was saying I would try cash out on a 400+ combo into restand and pressure than the cut short b1 bf2 restands when possible.

Oh yeah sure. I mean it's all up to how you want to do it so long as you're keeping the pressure rolling.
I must have misread. I don't always do b1 bf2. I tend to only do it on meterless combos because you gain meter from guaranteed pressure + from the combo itself.

 

[Sesal Snow]

Oh yeah sure. I mean it's all up to how you want to do it so long as you're keeping the pressure rolling.
I must have misread. I don't always do b1 bf2. I tend to only do it on meterless combos because you gain meter from guaranteed pressure + from the combo itself.

That's fair enough then
Just wanted to make sure you was not missing out on what could be big damage and potentially the game winning scenario.

 

[AkioOf100]

That's fair enough then
Just wanted to make sure you was not missing out on what could be big damage and potentially the game winning scenario.

Yeaaaaahhhhhh. Beetle's broke.
My mindset is if ur not plus u need to zone / corner carry xD

 

[AkioOf100]

Okay this is just a list that I've put together after thoroughly playing just about each matchup. Some of them I have mediocre experience / representation on but I tried to put an explanation next to each character just so it's not random.

Aquaman: 5-5 (FTD is useless against beetle for the mostpart, aquaman has to get in bc beetle is usually airborne, and they're basically even up close, Aquaman has no answer to setups)

Sub-Zero: 5-5 (6-4 if its my beetle in beetle's favor)

Swamp Thing: 6-4 (Beetle zones the living hell out of swamp thing, has fast enough recovery to ignore the gank buddy and still be safe, can open swamp thing up and has faster ranged moves up close w/ trait)

Cyborg: 5-5 (depends on who gets the life and meter lead first)

Catwoman: 4-6 (low profiles mids and overheads, whip can air to air very well as well as j1, gd answers to shield bash on block)

Flash: 5.5-4.5 (both have good answers to one another on kd, slightly in beetle's favor due to zoning and flash's poor wakeup game)

Green Lantern: 5-5 (Green Lantern's footsies beat out beetle's and can weirdly anti-air because of weird hitbox on lantern's b1? (pls fix NRS) Beetle can zone equally to him and he has little answer to BB's pressure, but lantern can anti-air him v well w/ d2)

Harley Quinn: 5-5 (both have to start guessing games with zoning and beetle just beats harley up close)

Batman: 6-4 (beetle mitigates his zoning with guessing game and can easily rid of bats with zoning, making his up close poor, beetle also removes his air batarang when above his head, so his kd game is poor against beetle) 5-5 with bats.

Red Hood: 5-5 (both have guessing games w/ projectiles, each have good wakeup game, there is no favor for either character)

Superman: 5-5 (great air mobility can rid of lasers but high risk when in closer ranges, superman can beat blue beetle outside of trait but w/ trait he beats sups up close)

Joker: 6-4 (beetle wins everywhere: zoning, air-to-air, up close, he just wins)

Atrocitus: 5-5 (trait and good d2 keeps beetle in check but beetle starts guessing games w/ zoning, can avoid puddle easily and punish it well with lunge w/ trait)

Grodd: 6-4 (beetle's air to air wins out on grodd's, he can zone grodd out, when grodd has trait the match is 5-5, grodd has no answer to beetle's flight pressure)

Cheetah: 4-6 (cheetah's air to air beats out beetle's, she can disrupt his zoning and force him to respect her frame traps and mix with high damage while low profiling his answers post shield bash)

Deadshot: 4.5-5.5 (beetle forces a mind game with deadshot and this allows him to get in while simultaneously doing more damage than him w/ zoning, up close is basically even bc deadshot is broken)

Poison Ivy: 7-3 (ivy has no answers for beetle at all)

Starfire: 5-5 (Beetle can force a mind game with starfire's zoning and get in, but when up close the two are basically even)

Black Manta: 5-5(?) (Black Manta can answer all of blue beetle's zoning w/ teleport, harpoon, and anti-air his flight with air shark attack, forcing the fight to be up close, where it's basically even)

Supergirl: 5-5 (Beetle can't be as risky with zoning with supergirl, can't safely do setups as her wakeups do counter them, they both do pretty well up close.)

Green Arrow: 4-6 (Beetle cannot win this matchup easily, green arrow's zoning is impeccable with very little recovery and anti-airs very well, Beetle can sometimes check this with a mid projectile but there are only 4 bars of meter that you will be gaining from getting hit with fire arrows for the most of the match. Arrow's up close is not the best but his wakeups are very good and can get him out of a lot of situations that blue beetle can put him in, allowing him to resume zoning)

Doctor Fate: 5-5 (b2 checks beetle's flight + his very good air-to-airs, but beetle's air projectiles check fate's MB orb and general zoning. Beetle wins up close)

Firestorm: 5-5 (firestorm checks beetle's flight with jbf3, checks his zoning with his faster projectile, but beetle disallows molten trap MB with his extremely plus projectile at mid-full screen, firestorm can anti-air very well with his blast thingy, but it's not invincible on wakeup. His invincible wakeup is punishable, making up for the fact that beetle cannot setup on him.)

Black Canary: 0-10 (black canary low profiles everything so it doesnt matter) but on a serious note 6-4 in beetle's favor IF everything is working out and she's not able to get through his zoning and low profile mids (which she is and his terrible hitbox registration is not helpful) she gets around his zoning pretty easily and up close can force her into her mix, but due to how unsafe it is, blue beetle can answer with similar vortex-esque pressure)

Stompseid: 5-5 (Beetle can pressure him very well, anti-air him very well, check his teleport, and delay his "zoning" some. But with trait, beetle must respect darkseid's trait and deal with his mixup. Flight goes over ground lasers.)

Wonder Woman: 5-5 (She locks beetle down v well and he locks her down v well. If he can zone her out he wins, if she can lock him in the corner she wins.)

Black Adam: 5-5 (Somewhat in beetle's favor, he can avoid dive kick relatively easily and zone black adam pretty well compared to a majority of the cast. He has very little answers to BB's setups but can standing 1 out of any of his pressure (or d1) though some conditioning can mitigate this in theory)

Captain Cold: 5-5 (Somewhat in cold's favor, d2 hits the stratosphere, wall disables most approaches (keyword: most), slow zone and level 3 trait is a huge threat to beetle making him an easier anti air for full combo into setups, etc. cold's fully invincible wakeup is a threat to beetle's setups but beetle is capable of changing cold's controls with some setups, relatively even up close)

Robin: 6-4 (Beetle can zone the life and death out of Robin. Robin can anti-air and out-up-close him very well. But by the time Robin gets in he has very low health and is susceptible to Beetle's pressure. He has good wakeup game but beetle can punish all of them relatively easily with his 7 frame jab)

Scarecrow: 6-4 (Scarecrow has some high reaching normals and some low-profiling attacks that can get beetle out of the air and can get rid of his pressure. Scarecrow is, however, highly susceptible to BB's zoning, and his teleport is always going to be full combo punished by Beetle.)

Bane: 6-4 (Beetle zones the living hell out of bane, bane has very little answer to beetle's corner pressure, and to shield on block. Bane outdamages him but beetle will be in the air for the most of the fight, de-optimizing(?) all his damage if he manages to get any)

Brainiac: 4-6 (Beetle gets out-ranged and out-damaged. He can somewhat play around Brainiac's trait and mobility by switching through his traits and air-to-airing, but the ease is in Brainiac's favor and he can capitalize very well on it.)

Raiden: no MU experience

 

[Sesal Snow]

Okay this is just a list that I've put together after thoroughly playing just about each matchup. Some of them I have mediocre experience / representation on but I tried to put an explanation next to each character just so it's not random.

Aquaman: 5-5 (FTD is useless against beetle for the mostpart, aquaman has to get in bc beetle is usually airborne, and they're basically even up close, Aquaman has no answer to setups)

Sub-Zero: 5-5 (6-4 if its my beetle in beetle's favor)

Swamp Thing: 6-4 (Beetle zones the living hell out of swamp thing, has fast enough recovery to ignore the gank buddy and still be safe, can open swamp thing up and has faster ranged moves up close w/ trait)

Cyborg: 5-5 (depends on who gets the life and meter lead first)

Catwoman: 4-6 (low profiles mids and overheads, whip can air to air very well as well as j1, gd answers to shield bash on block)

Flash: 5.5-4.5 (both have good answers to one another on kd, slightly in beetle's favor due to zoning and flash's poor wakeup game)

Green Lantern: 5-5 (Green Lantern's footsies beat out beetle's and can weirdly anti-air because of weird hitbox on lantern's b1? (pls fix NRS) Beetle can zone equally to him and he has little answer to BB's pressure, but lantern can anti-air him v well w/ d2)

Harley Quinn: 5-5 (both have to start guessing games with zoning and beetle just beats harley up close)

Batman: 6-4 (beetle mitigates his zoning with guessing game and can easily rid of bats with zoning, making his up close poor, beetle also removes his air batarang when above his head, so his kd game is poor against beetle) 5-5 with bats.

Red Hood: 5-5 (both have guessing games w/ projectiles, each have good wakeup game, there is no favor for either character)

Superman: 5-5 (great air mobility can rid of lasers but high risk when in closer ranges, superman can beat blue beetle outside of trait but w/ trait he beats sups up close)

Joker: 6-4 (beetle wins everywhere: zoning, air-to-air, up close, he just wins)

Atrocitus: 5-5 (trait and good d2 keeps beetle in check but beetle starts guessing games w/ zoning, can avoid puddle easily and punish it well with lunge w/ trait)

Grodd: 6-4 (beetle's air to air wins out on grodd's, he can zone grodd out, when grodd has trait the match is 5-5, grodd has no answer to beetle's flight pressure)

Cheetah: 4-6 (cheetah's air to air beats out beetle's, she can disrupt his zoning and force him to respect her frame traps and mix with high damage while low profiling his answers post shield bash)

Deadshot: 4.5-5.5 (beetle forces a mind game with deadshot and this allows him to get in while simultaneously doing more damage than him w/ zoning, up close is basically even bc deadshot is broken)

Poison Ivy: 7-3 (ivy has no answers for beetle at all)

Starfire: 5-5 (Beetle can force a mind game with starfire's zoning and get in, but when up close the two are basically even)

Black Manta: 5-5(?) (Black Manta can answer all of blue beetle's zoning w/ teleport, harpoon, and anti-air his flight with air shark attack, forcing the fight to be up close, where it's basically even)

Supergirl: 5-5 (Beetle can't be as risky with zoning with supergirl, can't safely do setups as her wakeups do counter them, they both do pretty well up close.)

Green Arrow: 4-6 (Beetle cannot win this matchup easily, green arrow's zoning is impeccable with very little recovery and anti-airs very well, Beetle can sometimes check this with a mid projectile but there are only 4 bars of meter that you will be gaining from getting hit with fire arrows for the most of the match. Arrow's up close is not the best but his wakeups are very good and can get him out of a lot of situations that blue beetle can put him in, allowing him to resume zoning)

Doctor Fate: 5-5 (b2 checks beetle's flight + his very good air-to-airs, but beetle's air projectiles check fate's MB orb and general zoning. Beetle wins up close)

Firestorm: 5-5 (firestorm checks beetle's flight with jbf3, checks his zoning with his faster projectile, but beetle disallows molten trap MB with his extremely plus projectile at mid-full screen, firestorm can anti-air very well with his blast thingy, but it's not invincible on wakeup. His invincible wakeup is punishable, making up for the fact that beetle cannot setup on him.)

Black Canary: 0-10 (black canary low profiles everything so it doesnt matter) but on a serious note 6-4 in beetle's favor IF everything is working out and she's not able to get through his zoning and low profile mids (which she is and his terrible hitbox registration is not helpful) she gets around his zoning pretty easily and up close can force her into her mix, but due to how unsafe it is, blue beetle can answer with similar vortex-esque pressure)

Stompseid: 5-5 (Beetle can pressure him very well, anti-air him very well, check his teleport, and delay his "zoning" some. But with trait, beetle must respect darkseid's trait and deal with his mixup. Flight goes over ground lasers.)

Wonder Woman: 5-5 (She locks beetle down v well and he locks her down v well. If he can zone her out he wins, if she can lock him in the corner she wins.)

Black Adam: 5-5 (Somewhat in beetle's favor, he can avoid dive kick relatively easily and zone black adam pretty well compared to a majority of the cast. He has very little answers to BB's setups but can standing 1 out of any of his pressure (or d1) though some conditioning can mitigate this in theory)

Captain Cold: 5-5 (Somewhat in cold's favor, d2 hits the stratosphere, wall disables most approaches (keyword: most), slow zone and level 3 trait is a huge threat to beetle making him an easier anti air for full combo into setups, etc. cold's fully invincible wakeup is a threat to beetle's setups but beetle is capable of changing cold's controls with some setups, relatively even up close)

Robin: 6-4 (Beetle can zone the life and death out of Robin. Robin can anti-air and out-up-close him very well. But by the time Robin gets in he has very low health and is susceptible to Beetle's pressure. He has good wakeup game but beetle can punish all of them relatively easily with his 7 frame jab)

Scarecrow: 6-4 (Scarecrow has some high reaching normals and some low-profiling attacks that can get beetle out of the air and can get rid of his pressure. Scarecrow is, however, highly susceptible to BB's zoning, and his teleport is always going to be full combo punished by Beetle.)

Bane: 6-4 (Beetle zones the living hell out of bane, bane has very little answer to beetle's corner pressure, and to shield on block. Bane outdamages him but beetle will be in the air for the most of the fight, de-optimizing(?) all his damage if he manages to get any)

Brainiac: 4-6 (Beetle gets out-ranged and out-damaged. He can somewhat play around Brainiac's trait and mobility by switching through his traits and air-to-airing, but the ease is in Brainiac's favor and he can capitalize very well on it.)

Raiden: no MU experience

I disagree heavily on the Brainiac mu Beetles blade stance destroys brainiac in every situation he can dive kick bec d2 beats it clean if he does land a divekick on block you can clean d2 between the meterburn.
If brainiac tries to stagger trait on block strings like 3 4 then beetle can poke out for free with trait on.
Beetles zoning is also amazing for keeping out brainiac you can zone him until he floats or divekicks and because of the quick recovery you got enough time to d2 him.

Another thing I disagree with is the Deadshot mu. One of the things that makes Beetle such a good char is the fact that he builds meter insanely quick and always has it ready. Now in the Deadshot mu this is not the case because Deadshot does this better than Beetle. As for the mind game of when to air dash in etc Deadshot can air to air on reaction with his instant j1 which comes out in 5f's. Another thing to note is that Deadshot can actually get similar damage on a combo to Beetle when he wants but most players just got for the easy pushback combos so they can get trait and zone again. Deadshot has to many options and has to much of an easy time dealing with Beetle to make this an even Mu. Despite this I don't think its that bad if a 4-6 for Beetle it is of course very do able and that mid range spacing with projectiles or blade stance is great.

I would also disagree on the Catwoman mu number you have.
I agree with the whiffing issues but this is not consistent for the Catwoman player enough to be a big deal.
I have tested it my self and there is no way of punishing with her other than a read on a standing 1 etc and doing a b3.
Her whip is godlike at anti airing but this is another mu I feel trait plays a huge part you can d2 her j2 for free in trait so the best way to play a CW player is to zone her out until she gets mid range then switch out to trait.
As for the answers she has to shield I mean after the bash it is her turn but end of the day she is not going to punish it unless you pressing buttons which most of the time Beetles are. I strongly believe that this is a 5-5 mu.

As for the Raiden mu I know its still early but it feels like a 6-4 to Beetle at the moment. Raidens neutral kind of sucks and blade stance dominates him you can d2 punish everything he has. The only thing to really look out for is a mb teleport if you zoning him or if he gets in his standing 3 50/50 with mb teleport

 

[AkioOf100]

I disagree heavily on the Brainiac mu Beetles blade stance destroys brainiac in every situation he can dive kick bec d2 beats it clean if he does land a divekick on block you can clean d2 between the meterburn.
If brainiac tries to stagger trait on block strings like 3 4 then beetle can poke out for free with trait on.
Beetles zoning is also amazing for keeping out brainiac you can zone him until he floats or divekicks and because of the quick recovery you got enough time to d2 him.

Another thing I disagree with is the Deadshot mu. One of the things that makes Beetle such a good char is the fact that he builds meter insanely quick and always has it ready. Now in the Deadshot mu this is not the case because Deadshot does this better than Beetle. As for the mind game of when to air dash in etc Deadshot can air to air on reaction with his instant j1 which comes out in 5f's. Another thing to note is that Deadshot can actually get similar damage on a combo to Beetle when he wants but most players just got for the easy pushback combos so they can get trait and zone again. Deadshot has to many options and has to much of an easy time dealing with Beetle to make this an even Mu. Despite this I don't think its that bad if a 4-6 for Beetle it is of course very do able and that mid range spacing with projectiles or blade stance is great.

I would also disagree on the Catwoman mu number you have.
I agree with the whiffing issues but this is not consistent for the Catwoman player enough to be a big deal.
I have tested it my self and there is no way of punishing with her other than a read on a standing 1 etc and doing a b3.
Her whip is godlike at anti airing but this is another mu I feel trait plays a huge part you can d2 her j2 for free in trait so the best way to play a CW player is to zone her out until she gets mid range then switch out to trait.
As for the answers she has to shield I mean after the bash it is her turn but end of the day she is not going to punish it unless you pressing buttons which most of the time Beetles are. I strongly believe that this is a 5-5 mu.

As for the Raiden mu I know its still early but it feels like a 6-4 to Beetle at the moment. Raidens neutral kind of sucks and blade stance dominates him you can d2 punish everything he has. The only thing to really look out for is a mb teleport if you zoning him or if he gets in his standing 3 50/50 with mb teleport

Brainiac's dive kick active frames stretch much farther than j1 with trait but i suppose a well timed d2 can get rid of that. I'll have to Lab it. I've played several games with a very talented brainiac just to sorta get the feel for the matchup. But the ease definitely feels like it's in brainiac's favor. Maybe I wasnt playing it right?

I may have mistaken the cat woman matchup as well. Now that I look back it does look more 5-5 than anything (disregarding hitbox issues).

Idk much about Raiden at all but it doesn't seem too hard for beetle yet. I just can't drop a hypothesis yet. xD

Deadshot is definitely 4-6 imo just because of how he can whiff one read attempt with an air gun shot and follow up with one on the ground because of his extremely low recovery. Blades can keep deadshot at bay up close if the beetle is wary of his wakeup game and they can punish it very well. But knowing deadshot, the majority of the match will not be up close. I've played this matchup quite a bit and actually did come out on the winning side until I played a much more talented and adaptive deadshot. Then it definitely seemed like the way in on deadshot was a lot longer than the amount of time beetle stayed in.

 

[EntropicByDesign]

I know this isnt the combo thread, but all this talk about big damage +15 corner restand combos..

Notations?

 

[AkioOf100]

I know this isnt the combo thread, but all this talk about big damage +15 corner restand combos..

Notations?

These obv aren't all of them but here are some:

Meterless:
13 fc j2 13 fc j2 f23 f3 j2 b1 bf2 (around 315 on sups)
13 fc j2 13 fc j2 111 bf2 (less dmg but around 300 on sups)

1 bar:
(side switch into corner) 111 df1 MB 13 fc j2 b1 bf2 (348 on sups)
(side switch into corner) 111 df1 MB f23 d2 b1 (323 on sups) not exactly +15 but around +10-+12 bc depending on height (thats why the d2 is in the combo)

2 bars:
111 f3bounce cancel bf2 3 bf2 d2 bf2 b1 (should be around 470+ on superman, tight timing but for more ease ignore the last bf2 and just go straight to b1 after d2)
111 f3bounce cancel j2 f23 d2 b1 bf2 (423 on superman, unoptimal damage but easy to pull off and leaves you very plus, jailing a standing 1 or b2 guaranteed and allowing pressure/meter build)
111 f3bounce cancel j3 fc j3 b1 (a lot of dmg into restand)

Swaggy/Sneaky reset:
13 fc j2 13 fc j2 f23 f3 j2 b1 f3bounce cancel (into whatevr next combo u wanna do)

Also, if anyone has some actually OPTIMAL restand combos for me, please send them my way? I have the same issue.

 

[EntropicByDesign]

These obv aren't all of them but here are some:

Meterless:
13 fc j2 13 fc j2 f23 f3 j2 b1 bf2 (around 315 on sups)
13 fc j2 13 fc j2 111 bf2 (less dmg but around 300 on sups)

1 bar:
(side switch into corner) 111 df1 MB 13 fc j2 b1 bf2 (348 on sups)
(side switch into corner) 111 df1 MB f23 d2 b1 (323 on sups) not exactly +15 but around +10-+12 bc depending on height (thats why the d2 is in the combo)

2 bars:
111 f3bounce cancel bf2 3 bf2 d2 bf2 b1 (should be around 470+ on superman, tight timing but for more ease ignore the last bf2 and just go straight to b1 after d2)
111 f2 bounce cancel j2 f23 d2 b1 bf2 (423 on superman, unoptimal damage but easy to pull off and leaves you very plus, jailing a standing 1 or b2 guaranteed and allowing pressure/meter build)

Swaggy/Sneaky reset:
13 fc j2 13 fc j2 f23 f3 j2 b1 f3bounce cancel (into whatevr next combo u wanna do)

Also, if anyone has some actually OPTIMAL restand combos for me, please send them my way? I have the same issue.

<3

Don't mean to derail the thread, but after some of the stuff you and Espio have gone over with me on Beetle, I've found myself getting corner advantage quite a bit more often than before - like enough that I see huge opportunities I cant capitalize on due to lack of knowledge (My entire corner game is 13fc - which I have learned KNOW ONE seems to know is + and I loves it, though I'm getting spoiled) so I needs to work on my corner options.

 

[AkioOf100]

<3

Don't mean to derail the thread, but after some of the stuff you and Espio have gone over with me on Beetle, I've found myself getting corner advantage quite a bit more often than before - like enough that I see huge opportunities I cant capitalize on due to lack of knowledge (My entire corner game is 13fc - which I have learned KNOW ONE seems to know is + and I loves it, though I'm getting spoiled) so I needs to work on my corner options.

Yeah! Start using your 21 string because it's +2 and then standing 3 is 8 frames so it becomes 6 frames, which you can hit confirm with df1 if they disresepct it. Or you can d1 check them to continue pressure. If you get a d1 on block you can cancel it into MB db2 which is also +2 and continue the cycle, while building meter to recycle it.

 

[pfiidud3]

Yeah! Start using your 21 string because it's +2 and then standing 3 is 8 frames so it becomes 6 frames, which you can hit confirm with df1 if they disresepct it. Or you can d1 check them to continue pressure. If you get a d1 on block you can cancel it into MB db2 which is also +2 and continue the cycle, while building meter to recycle it.

Yiu mean bf2.

As far as aquaman not having answers ti set ups... thats laughable. He has the most wake ups in the game.

 

[EntropicByDesign]

Advice on the Aquaman MU? I see most saying its even/Beetle advantage, but I feel helpless in that MU. One FTD landed and I lose any zoning momentum, and he hits HARD with those, so even if I really battled for the zoning advantage he seemed to be winning in the life department, on top of just ignoring my zoning entirely with that water shield move he has.

I was way too impatient, I know that, but even on knockdown it felt like he had all the advantage. If I took to the air, hed use the water shield thing to just hit me up, 360deg, and if I stood in front, of course, I ate tridents to the face, and if I delayed the jump to try to get him to commit to Rush, Rush still seemed to tag me out of the air.

I feel like maybe my problem was looking at things to on dimensionally and either 3/4 full screen zoning, or point blank normals.. Like I should have played the match closer, but not point blank. Somewhere around right outside his b3's range maybe? That would make a blocked FTD something very dangerous, and my super fast projectile something to worry about. Even if he water shielded there, I havent labbed yet, but I assume that move has a lot of recovery - it cant be that good, I never see it used - perhaps I could punish, or catch him in some way.

Anyway, just thinking outloud. Id love to hear your-alls insight.

 

[pfiidud3]

Advice on the Aquaman MU? I see most saying its even/Beetle advantage, but I feel helpless in that MU. One FTD landed and I lose any zoning momentum, and he hits HARD with those, so even if I really battled for the zoning advantage he seemed to be winning in the life department, on top of just ignoring my zoning entirely with that water shield move he has.

I was way too impatient, I know that, but even on knockdown it felt like he had all the advantage. If I took to the air, hed use the water shield thing to just hit me up, 360deg, and if I stood in front, of course, I ate tridents to the face, and if I delayed the jump to try to get him to commit to Rush, Rush still seemed to tag me out of the air.

I feel like maybe my problem was looking at things to on dimensionally and either 3/4 full screen zoning, or point blank normals.. Like I should have played the match closer, but not point blank. Somewhere around right outside his b3's range maybe? That would make a blocked FTD something very dangerous, and my super fast projectile something to worry about. Even if he water shielded there, I havent labbed yet, but I assume that move has a lot of recovery - it cant be that good, I never see it used - perhaps I could punish, or catch him in some way.

Anyway, just thinking outloud. Id love to hear your-alls insight.

Its hard imo. hes got good range (your trait can contest it though) his d2 gets you outa the air. he has the wake up options. and his trait nullifies your db1 mb.

Stay in trait, be ready to punish a blocked ftd w bf3. And fly high in the air at full screen, he can't touch you. that water shield is super good, i don't know why I don't see it more. especially late game.

 

[EntropicByDesign]

Its hard imo. hes got good range (your trait can contest it though) his d2 gets you outa the air. he has the wake up options. and his trait nullifies your db1 mb.

Stay in trait, be ready to punish a blocked ftd w bf3. And fly high in the air at full screen, he can't touch you. that water shield is super good, i don't know why I don't see it more. especially late game.

I appreciate the advice. I forgot to mention d2 as well, yeah, that just tore me up.

Im glad to know I wasn't just purely stupid, and some of what was happening to me was legit and not just me being terrible, lol.

And that water shield is nasty..

 

[AkioOf100]

What wakeup options am I not remembering? Trident Rush only has an active hitbox on the ground as far as I know, and crossup setups reverse those controls + beetle is usually above Aquaman in those setups so his wakeups basically do nothing. Or am I wrong?

 

[Sesal Snow]

What wakeup options am I not remembering? Trident Rush only has an active hitbox on the ground as far as I know, and crossup setups reverse those controls + beetle is usually above Aquaman in those setups so his wakeups basically do nothing. Or am I wrong?

That's true but if your going for fc setups be careful that the Aquaman player may catch on and wake up with the shield which is fast enough to stop "most" of the fc cross up setups etc.

 

[AkioOf100]

Ah ok ya. Gr8 tips guys I literally am playin a lot better when I take you guys' advice.

 

[pfiidud3]

He has rush, scoop, and water of life

 

[pfiidud3]

Most caharcters only get 0-1
(Looking at you cyborg)