Black Canary General Discussion 2.0

[ShaolinGunFu]

This is pretty false imo, her midscreen game is just ridiculous. She kills you in the same amount of hits whether it's midscreen or corner, her mixup game midscreen is actually slightly better than it is in the corner, and she gets punished A LOT less for getting blocked midscreen compared to getting blocked and immediately put in the corner.

in the corner i get two 2u3s before 33 trait, midscreen i only get one...? and what about the zoning part... dont you wanna trap them instead of trying to duckwalk against dr fate?

 

[Speculosity]

I'm sure zoners are an obvious exception.

 

[Take$$$]

in the corner i get two 2u3s before 33 trait, midscreen i only get one...? and what about the zoning part... dont you wanna trap them instead of trying to duckwalk against dr fate?

Why are you doing 2u3 33 trait?

As for zoners, if they block your mix midscreen then they get away and you have to get back in, yes, but if they blocked your mix in the corner they were going to do more damage to you and get away anyway(plus you might be forced to hold their oki or mix in neutral if you cant back up). She's not a character that can keep someone in the corner for a long time with + frames, she goes for a mix and if it gets blocked she gets punished or it's their turn. Thankfully we have a midscreen game that's better than most corner games, so why not take advantage of it? I feel like most people want to go to the corner because they don't know how deep and ridiculous her midscreen game is.

 

[Speculosity]

Guess they aren't.

 

[ShaolinGunFu]

i dont mean im doing that on block im saying if i go for 2u1/23 bf2 and land then ill do 2u3 2u3 33 3rd lvl 4, then go for another mix

not saying she doesnt have midscreen i just think her weakness is she only has one long distance move and its super obvious

 

[Take$$$]

i dont mean im doing that on block im saying if i go for 2u1/23 bf2 and land then ill do 2u3 2u3 33 3rd lvl 4, then go for another mix

not saying she doesnt have midscreen i just think her weakness is she only has one long distance move and its super obvious

Yeah I know, but I'm asking why do you even go for that?

And that's why I'm saying I don't think you quite understand her midscreen game, she has god tier oki and against some chars essentially has a vortex on their knockdown. Her range isn't an issue because on hit all this stuff loops back into itself until you hit them a 2nd time and they explode.

 

[jokey77]

I see where you are coming from, @Take$$$ .

i still think that 31-db2 is better at the corner. bf2 does not provide damagescaling that is nearly as good, so i prefer to begin my combos with db2.

besides the 21-db2-reset becomes pretty counterable with MU experience. I wouldn't even see it as a real 50/50. Thus you sacrifice her better safe 50/50 (23/21) for an unsafe reactable follow-up. at the corner db2 is guaranteed at least. I prefer that.

now much seem to depend on what kind of oki you do after 112 1+3. I still don't like unsafe 50/50s and it seems like this was what you were suggesting by doing db2? besides I still think that wakeup backdash and lying on the floor for as long as possible dodges plenty of db2 gimmicks.

i usually follow-up with j2, 21 / 23 mixup. however i'd appreciate if you would ellaborate other safe options.

generally I think that one has to use various mixups, because every single one will become reactable/counterable over time. i know plenty at the corner while i lack ideas after 112 1+3.

edit: I also went through your video-thread, @Take$$$ . I still haven't found anything to reliablity do after 112 1+3, but said j2, 2 into string. Delayed getting up messes with plenty of your setups.

 

[Take$$$]

I see where you are coming from, @Take$$$ .

i still think that 31-db2 is better at the corner. bf2 does not provide damagescaling that is nearly as good, so i prefer to begin my combos with db2.

besides the 21-db2-reset becomes pretty counterable with MU experience. I wouldn't even see it as a real 50/50. Thus you sacrifice her better safe 50/50 (23/21) for an unsafe reactable follow-up. at the corner db2 is guaranteed at least. I prefer that.

now much seem to depend on what kind of oki you do after 112 1+3. I still don't like unsafe 50/50s and it seems like this was what you were suggesting by doing db2? besides I still think that wakeup backdash and lying on the floor for as long as possible dodges plenty of db2 gimmicks.

i usually follow-up with j2, 21 / 23 mixup. however i'd appreciate if you would ellaborate other safe options.

generally I think that one has to use various mixups, because every single one will become reactable/counterable over time. i know plenty at the corner while i lack ideas after 112 1+3.

edit: I also went through your video-thread, @Take$$$ . I still haven't found anything to reliablity do after 112 1+3, but said j2, 2 into string. Delayed getting up messes with plenty of your setups.

I don't see how you're opposed to using unsafe mixups when 21 is unsafe af, and 23 has a very hittable gap if you delay it to make it un-fuzzyable, but there's a lot wrong with your post so I'll only address some of it. 21 db2 is legit unless you do it on block, in which case you should've hit confirmed and tried to cartwheel or something. Raw db2 catches almost every single backdash in the game off of 112 1+3 and d3, and if you instant air db2 off 112 1+3 you should be able to contest long delayed wakeup better than if you did it grounded. It's never unsafe though and you can always block or mash d3 if they long delay. You also obviously didn't watch nearly enough videos because dash up, tap forward, 2 after 112 1+3 blows up a ton of wakeups right into a mix and you can hold it to catch delay wakeup.

 

[jokey77]

i think that 21-trait and 23-trait are somewhat safe. it is easy to hitconfirm and release 4 on hit. on block cancelling 4 feels kinda safe. - safer than a blocked/missed db2 for sure.

dashing forward after 112 1+3 is like asking for a wake-up. i highly doubt that you reliably beat invul wake-ups. maybe some of those semi-invul ones.

and having to jump to catch delayed stand-ups is my point exactly. it takes one correct read too much... besides i even think that you have to jump forward if you want a real 50/50 out of the situation.

 

[Take$$$]

i think that 21-trait and 23-trait are somewhat safe. it is easy to hitconfirm and release 4 on hit. on block cancelling 4 feels kinda safe. - safer than a blocked/missed db2 for sure.

dashing forward after 112 1+3 is like asking for a wake-up. i highly doubt that you reliably beat invul wake-ups. maybe some of those semi-invul ones.

and having to jump to catch delayed stand-ups is my point exactly. it takes one correct read too much... besides i even think that you have to jump forward if you want a real 50/50 out of the situation.

Again, wrong.

Just a quick example:

^I'm like 99% sure that wakeup isn't fully invincible btw but people keep telling me it is so...
^Edit: Alright sweet I actually had an idea and pretty much proved that it's only a frame or two off from being fully invincible, so it's not and I feel vindicated. Point still stands more or less though, that beats every semi invincible wakeup and backdash, and at that range db2 alone beats (almost)every fully invincible wakeup like Firestorm's(which I have a video of), Superman 's, etc.

But what is your point exactly? Because dash forward beats delayed wakeup too, you don't HAVE to jump it's just one of the many mixups you can go for. Jump 2 off of 112 1+3 beats a ton of wakeups on its own, instant air/jump db2 beats even more, so it's not nearly as read based as you think which is why it can feel like a kind of pseudo vortex, but that's not even a real weakness because correct reads in this game are SUPPOSED to give the player an upper hand. It happens if you try to keep someone in the corner too, one dash forward on a good read and you're screwed for example. I'm really not sure what you're trying to prove here. And no, you don't have to jump forward to get a 50/50 off of the db2 because it'll cross up or stay in front depending on where they are in their getup animation. You really shouldn't try to disprove anything if you don't know what you're talking about in the first place.

 

[Tiger Wong]

Deadshots wake up ain't fully invincible.

Wonder Woman's upward shield bash is.

 

[Take$$$]

Deadshots wake up ain't fully invincible.

Wonder Woman's upward shield bash is.

pls tell me you're 100% confident in that

 

[Tiger Wong]

I've swept it with the god normal. Didn't you post a video on it.

 

[Take$$$]

I've swept it with the god normal. Didn't you post a video on it.

No I just have vids of me blowing it up. Buuuuuutttttt thanks to you backing me up, I went to YT and went frame by frame of a cpl vids of ppl blowing it up and he gets hit out like 1 or 2 frames before the first hitbox of his move comes out every time, then I remembered the thread where people said you have 1 frame to hit him out of it because its 10 frames of invincibility and his wakeup is 11 frames. So I'm happy.

 

[Tiger Wong]

Also, someone posted a tech where you do b1~DF1 to an opponent on wakeup and the b1 will whiff but the reversal will come out and catch the wakeup. I think Deadshots knee is one of those that it catches. I'll try to confirm. I know that tech doesn't catch some moves (Robin's Assassin Strike is one of them)

 

[jokey77]

I highly appreciate your findings, @Take$$$ . It is beyond me, why you act so upfront, but whatever.

My opinion on 21 / 23 being the safer 50/50 remains unchanged. Yet it is no 'either/or'-thing. Whatever works...

Of course at the end of the day correct reads win matches. However I still think, that you should minimize the amount of opportunities for an opponent to get out of your pressure/vortex. Getting up fast or late is ONE way to get out of oki pressure, being able to guess the actual 50/50 right adds ANOTHER. - I think that "ji2, then 2" covers more options than e.g. a db2 by itself.

However I will definitly have to look into what your video shows. It is interesting how 2 deals with wake-ups. This is a general issue that you bring up (wakeups not being totally invulnerable ever). Dashing and pressing 2 might indeed be another great option, if it works as well as you claim it would. Especially because people might mash their wake-up by instinct (like I would have done) once they see you rushing in.

Good stuff. And congratulations on feeling vindicated too.

--

Besides I'd like to add another thing (and risk getting blown up by @Take$$$ once again). It is possible to link a special to a whiffed (!) jump-attack. It has been like this ever since Mortal Kombat.

I have used this with Cyborg lately: You can jump backwards, press 2 or 3 immediatly (to cover follow-up jumps) and then shoot a projectile even after whiffing the normal.

However I think Canary might be able to make even better use of this. E.g. it is possible to do a neutral jump 2, then - on the way down - cancel into db2. This makes it kinda hard to punish said whiffed j2, because the opponent always risks getting hit by an aerial 50/50. - I wonder, if this can be used to cover even more oki-options.

 

[Take$$$]

I highly appreciate your findings, @Take$$$ . It is beyond me, why you act so upfront, but whatever.

My opinion on 21 / 23 being the safer 50/50 remains unchanged. Yet it is no 'either/or'-thing. Whatever works...

Of course at the end of the day correct reads win matches. However I still think, that you should minimize the amount of opportunities for an opponent to get out of your pressure/vortex. Getting up fast or late is ONE way to get out of oki pressure, being able to guess the actual 50/50 right adds ANOTHER. - I think that "ji2, then 2" covers more options than e.g. a db2 by itself.

However I will definitly have to look into what your video shows. It is interesting how 2 deals with wake-ups. This is a general issue that you bring up (wakeups not being totally invulnerable ever). Dashing and pressing 2 might indeed be another great option, if it works as well as you claim it would. Especially because people might mash their wake-up by instinct (like I would have done) once they see you rushing in.

Good stuff. And congratulations on feeling vindicated too.

--

Besides I'd like to add another thing (and risk getting blown up by @Take$$$ once again). It is possible to link a special to a whiffed (!) jump-attack. It has been like this ever since Mortal Kombat.

I have used this with Cyborg lately: You can jump backwards, press 2 or 3 immediatly (to cover follow-up jumps) and then shoot a projectile even after whiffing the normal.

However I think Canary might be able to make even better use of this. E.g. it is possible to do a neutral jump 2, then - on the way down - cancel into db2. This makes it kinda hard to punish said whiffed j2, because the opponent always risks getting hit by an aerial 50/50. - I wonder, if this can be used to cover even more oki-options.

(another book inc):

It's a text issue, for some reason lately I type things as I think them without adding any emotional subtext or anything. Probably because there's wayyy too much going on compared to normal and brain overloads. I really don't want you to read that stuff as me being mean, if anything it's more emotionless since it's just thoughts-to-post but if this was done over voice I'd sound a lot more cheerful. You can reallllllly tell when I'm trying to be a dick. But yeah that's what I was trying to get across to you in my more recent post. That you can do your 21 mixups off of 112 1+3 and blow up every wakeup that isn't fully invincible at the same time, and even beat all the delayed wakeup timings. The dash tap forward method works so reliably because of the + frames and static distance more than anything I think. Here's a video I made that shows what I'm trying to say:

The j2 2 option definitely covers the delay timings better than raw db2, but like you said it's important to change up how you decide to mix them. I'm not saying to go for the raw db2 mix every time you knock them down, I definitely don't, but there are tons of positives to doing them and they should be part of every Canary's kit. My argument has never been for db2, I was just explaining some of the stuff it can do.

My argument is for keeping things midscreen because 112 1+3 is so good that it basically makes the midscreen your own personal corner, since if you're in the corner, unsafe mix or not you're going to be the one in the corner if they block you because nothing you're going to do is +(aside from lvl 1, which is skeptical usage at this point in time, and mb flip is a gimmick I dont count). I just see no reason to keep anyone in the corner with this character, and it's not like this gameplan for a character is new to fighting games or anything.

Just for the sake of saying it for j2 off of 112 1+3, you hit them on regular wakeup timing as well as short delay wakeup, and if they long delay you get your 21/23 mixup because they have to block which is why I made these 2 videos for it(short delay is turned on for one vid and long for the other):

I did have the same idea where you do the whiff j2 then Canary Drop, but it has some issues... but you just gave me an idea for a timing that might remedy that issue for whiff j2 db2 off 112 1+3. I do need to make a video putting all of this stuff together explaining what works and the stuff the different setups are strong/weak to, because this string is simply amazing and deep. Like, it even gives you more damage than pretty much every other ender on top of all this for some reason.

Edit: also, thank you for the compliment!

 

[jokey77]

I appreciate your effort, including all these videos!

Besides 112 1+3 is important, because 11-db2(mb) is her best combo starter once her scream hits fullscreen and ideally you end you combos that way (e.g. 11 db2 [mb], b3, j2, j2, 112 1+3). As you said, it leads to a lot of (easy) damage.

When throwing out an (armored) b3, you can also follow-up with j3, 113. j3 has to be done as early as possible. I think, this could very well lead to optimized meterless damage. However i usually go for j2, d2-df3, (11), 112 1+3, because it offers more time to hitconfirm. It is pretty similar with f3, even though j3 is damn hard to do on some hurtboxes. - No matter what, you always end with 112 1+3.

I am also going to further look into possbile follow-ups!

 

[Take$$$]

I appreciate your effort, including all these videos!

Besides 112 1+3 is important, because 11-db2(mb) is her best combo starter once her scream hits fullscreen and ideally you end you combos that way (e.g. 11 db2 [mb], b3, j2, j2, 112 1+3). As you said, it leads to a lot of (easy) damage.

When throwing out an (armored) b3, you can also follow-up with j3, 113. j3 has to be done as early as possible. I think, this could very well lead to optimized meterless damage. However i usually go for j2, d2-df3, (11), 112 1+3, because it offers more time to hitconfirm. It is pretty similar with f3, even though j3 is damn hard to do on some hurtboxes. - No matter what, you always end with 112 1+3.

I am also going to further look into possbile follow-ups!

Thank you! This conversation has been good for helping people understand more of my tech and stuff on a deeper level which is nice. Off of raw b3 my usual combo is j2 j1 112 1+3, the j1 is easier to hit than another j2 off of raw b3 and the j1 even catches up air escape(might even be worth tossing j1 into my bnb instead of j2 j2 so I can catch air escape).

I'm glad you're also on board(or getting there?) with the midscreen plan too. It's not new but it's definitely not the norm, so it takes days or weeks to convince people sometimes. I never really explored f3 combos much(definitely gonna do that later), but for that I usually do 1 j1 112 1+3. Cant lab to compare the damage right now, but maybe someone will get to it soon and let us know. Also let me know what else you find!

 

[Made Capo]

Do you guys want to set up a room sometime to practice? I'm more of visual learner, so I appreciate the vids. I play on PSN (khayri). I don't mind being the training dummy as long as I'm learning.

 

[jokey77]

Thank you! This conversation has been good for helping people understand more of my tech and stuff on a deeper level which is nice. Off of raw b3 my usual combo is j2 j1 112 1+3, the j1 is easier to hit than another j2 off of raw b3 and the j1 even catches up air escape(might even be worth tossing j1 into my bnb instead of j2 j2 so I can catch air escape).

I'm glad you're also on board(or getting there?) with the midscreen plan too. It's not new but it's definitely not the norm, so it takes days or weeks to convince people sometimes. I never really explored f3 combos much(definitely gonna do that later), but for that I usually do 1 j1 112 1+3. Cant lab to compare the damage right now, but maybe someone will get to it soon and let us know. Also let me know what else you find!

I have checked the damage. My combos seem to hurt slightly more indeed. And damn, this "1 j1 112 1+3" combo is hard to pull off! I took me like 20 tries.

Besides I have looked into 112 1+3 a bit more. However I gave up when I put Superman on "wakeup backdash". There was literally nothing practical I could hit him with. This felt like the answer for pretty much everything (dash, b1 did work, but this ain't practical at all). - Do you have any ideas?

I also played some matches against a Robin-player and tried to apply your tech: dashing, then 2. His wake-ups caught me time and time again, but this might very well be me mistiming it.

 

[Take$$$]

I have checked the damage. My combos seem to hurt slightly more indeed. And damn, this "1 j1 112 1+3" combo is hard to pull off! I took me like 20 tries.

Besides I have looked into 112 1+3 a bit more. However I gave up when I put Superman on "wakeup backdash". There was literally nothing practical I could hit him with. This felt like the answer for pretty much everything (dash, b1 did work, but this ain't practical at all). - Do you have any ideas?

I also played some matches against a Robin-player and tried to apply your tech: dashing, then 2. His wake-ups caught me time and time again, but this might very well be me mistiming it.

It took me a while to get used to the proper timing for the dash up 2 stuff, since for some wakeups your dash has to be near perfect and other wakeups sloppy timing is fine, but yeah remember that it doesn't really work on fully invincible wakeups. If you're tapping forward after you dash you should be catching the majority of backdashes.

Superman and Supergirl are like the only two characters that kind of fuck with your oki hard, but for Supergirl at least you can do dash up walk back slightly and hit her with a b3 if she wakes up(worth doing on block too tbh since you're like +4 off of a b3 on block). Probably works for Superman too but I keep forgetting to check.

As for a general catch all solution to these issues, I present:

This tech is overall superior to dash up 2 imo now that there's proof of it beating these things(we all did j2 off 112 1+3 before, but this takes it a step further), because this should cover every single option(including delay) and j2/j3 jail into 2 on block so you get to do the same thing but it's 100x easier to do and covers more options overall. J3 catches the fully invincible wakeups/wakeups that give you trouble that you cant beat with j2, so it deals with Grodd/Firestorm/Blue Beetle/Robin/etc perfectly, and j2 beats the rest. You should be catching every backdash with j2/j3 off of 112 1+3 too. Superman and Supergirl are like the only two characters that have an option to get out.

This more or less gives her a legit midscreen vortex off of 112 1+3 as long as she has a bar to loop(or 3/4 of a bar since you might build enough to get the rest of the meter) on every character except for Superman and Supergirl(and maayyyybe 1 or 2 others).

 

[Tiger Wong]

Besides I have looked into 112 1+3 a bit more. However I gave up when I put Superman on "wakeup backdash". There was literally nothing practical I could hit him with. This felt like the answer for pretty much everything (dash, b1 did work, but this ain't practical at all). - Do you have any ideas?

Backdashes are caught by b1, b2 or raw scream. Backdashes get you out of most of Canary's stuff. But once you hit them with a raw lvl2/3 scream and finish it with a combo, they rethink that strategy. The thing about Canary is, if she hits you and you finish your plate, it REALLY HURTS and they immediately change their tactic. I have wondered if BF2 will catch them. It's so unsafe though.

also played some matches against a Robin-player and tried to apply your tech: dashing, then 2. His wake-ups caught me time and time again, but this might very well be me mistiming it.

Robin's Assassin Strike may not be "fully invincible" but it's a pain in the ass. It's punishable but it seems to be range dependent. And it eats up all your standing normals on wakeup. You can DF1 it but for some reason, I can't b1~DF1 it on wakeup.

 

[Compbros]

Uploading a set between me and playing to win (Deadshot) some time tomorrow. Here's a set of me vs. DJT (Black Adam). Pardon the early drops, had to get used to the online.

 

[EntropicByDesign]

Ok, I have a question for some of you guys who know the character so well..

So, Ive been reading up on Canary... I've been interested in her since day 1, but only now sitting down to try and understand her a little more and the issue I'm coming across isnt the same issue with a lot of characters.. and that's lack of info.. For Canary, there an overload of it. Reading through some of this stuff is bonkers and for someone wanting to kinda try her out, its kind of hard to know where to start.

@Take$$$ has postulated this 'cornerless' idea for her, and I LOVE the idea of that. I like to boil things down and keep them as condensed as possible and I despise having to learn corner games on top of everything else you usually have to keep track of.. The idea of keeping people out on purpose has pretty much sold me on checking her out in a serious way.

So, my question is, if anyone is willing to answer.. What is a condensed list of what I need to learn/lab with her to get started? I see the guides breakdown of strings and normals and such, and after reading through here it looks like everything should always end with 112 1+3, and you're primary oki followups off of this are.. j2 into 2(etc) and dash up, tap forward, 2(etc)? Ive looked through the combo thread, but what combos am I going to find myself using the absolute most? Like I said, Id like to condense this into as few combos as possible that are significantly different than one another.. And finally, I know about the delayed, blocked j2 into Canary drop crossup, but what other shenanigans like that are central to her gameplan? I guess Im asking for a basic Black Canary Toolkit. Dont need the specialty stuff yet, that'll come with time, just the most used stuff.

I realize what Im asking is a tall order, but the more I read up on her, the less I know where to begin. I know that in a perfect world I just go grind a million matches and figure it out, but my game time is limited and I have to make what use of it I can.

Thanks guys.