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Match-up Discussion Bane's living MU Chart (v1.06/v.1.07)

Mr. Mileena

Champion
I remember when you said the new Mb b.3 buffs helped Aquaman when, barring a 8% drop in trade damage, it was no different at all.
Also going back and forth in sets with one person doesn't make a MU, or so I heard *cough cough*.

The thing is not only did you lose to one Bane, you lost to a good Bane and a Bane whom has nothing but basics. Sorry, DarthArma. I love you but your tech knowledge is where Grrs was back then too. There were no surprises to be had, if you didn't sit down and hash out the Bane MU then that's your own fault. We have more techs than you'll likely ever see, but you'll still find yourself being tossed around by just the very bare minimum. Mb b.3? Works on half-screen charge, and literally nothing else. You can ask GGA 16 Bit if Mb b.3 is a universal answer, and with all the times Max has blown him out of it using d.1/d.2xxSpecials I'd be surprised if he says yes. (not to discredit 16 bit, he is a great player but its Mb b.3 on trial here, not him.) The game is half a year old and we're still using the same stuff we found in May. If you haven't gotten it by now, its not the "surprise bitch imma throw this shit out" factor, its the "If you don't know exactly what to do, you'll likely lose" factor. The same thing Doomsday runs off of, only you weren't saying you'd wreck any DD player. You'll get blown up for it, yeah, to no end will you hear "Tom says he'll beat any Bane - Immediately loses to 2".

If he threw out 9999999 MB venom uppercuts and you didn't manage to use your ultra Mb b.3 on ANY of them, then I question everything. Qwark even put a video up. I know what you are thinking, "who the fuck is Qwark", but by the sound of what you're saying he's figured it out more than you have.

No Bane ever blocks? My god the cooldowns must be tragic for us. And Man, it makes sense that we are coming into multiple top 4s and even taking 2/3 of the top 3 in that tourney by never blocking. I can't imagine how hard it must be to beat someone who never blocks. Ever. On that note, know who else we don't need to block against?

Everything from "5.5-4.5" onwards.

Go get your button fixed, let your back heal, try to find a nearby ocean in which you can dispense your salt, beat some Bane player once, and then tell us all to hold that while we watch them run it back from losers and take you down along the way. :p


But all that said, I do respect you as a player, more than you'll ever know. Still, no. Its at least Bane's favour. You don't lose to 2 Banes if its a 4-6 your advantage, and you don't lose to a basic Bane if its even. DarthArma has been playing Bane for like what... a month maybe? I don't see, on paper or in practice, how AM has an advantage in this one. If you'd like to explain, sure, but we aren't just beating your trait. We are beating your trait, wake-ups, footsies, air game, ground game, Mb b.3 game... and we don't even have to spend meter to do it.


I'm sorry, usually I'd be more conservative, but seriously, no. You deserve this blow up, you know nothing of strength. I may be just the forum warrior, everpresent in my form, but even I can't help but seriously question the logic behind your ideas of the Bane MU. You should try picking him up. Get to top 4 without blocking. If you play Bane like you think we do, people won't even need Mb b.3 to stop you dead in your tracks. Blah blah, etc etc, and its done. Come what may, but until its shown otherwise I have no reason to not have AM in our favour. Talk is one thing, but results speak more than works.
Your logic doesn't make sense. So, if Tom beats 2 Banes next time, it's now 6-4?

You have to remember it was just a first to 2.
Matchups don't work on a first to 2 set with one or two players.

You act as if Bane is the only character getting "hated on"

You should listen to some of the stuff they say about aquaman.
 

RYX

BIG PUSHER
Venom isn't getting you in on the 50% of the cast with multi-hitting projectiles. Venom isn't beating the flash for you. Venom isn't getting through Raven f.2. Good luck not blocking against Superman. I could go on.
The misinformation about Bane is so painful

We should have made a Bane Clarification thread
 

cR WoundCowboy

WoundCowbae <3
Venom isn't getting you in on the 50% of the cast with multi-hitting projectiles. Venom isn't beating the flash for you. Venom isn't getting through Raven f.2. Good luck not blocking against Superman. I could go on.
Well yea, there are MUs where he has to be more careful with it. My only point is that alot of characters have to think twice before they attack Bane with venom because of the armor properties. That's his gimmick.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Your logic doesn't make sense. So, if Tom beats 2 Banes next time, it's now 6-4?

You have to remember it was just a first to 2.
Matchups don't work on a first to 2 set with one or two players.

You act as if Bane is the only character getting "hated on"

You should listen to some of the stuff they say about aquaman.
I'm not saying "Tom lost to 2 banes, its automatically a bad MU"
I'm saying "If the MU was SOOOOO easy that Tom can just Mb b.3 his way to victory, then he shouldn't have lost to a good Bane and a basic Bane." If Tom beats the next 2 Banes of decent merit, I'll be impressed and say the placement would be pending again.

If, in a set to 2, Tom knew the MU as extensively as he claims and his answers were so full-proof, then he wouldn't have lost to both Banes.
If you claimed "I'll wreck any ____, just Mb b.3" and then you lose to two of them, obviously your knowledge on the Mu isn't as solid as you thought.

Also everyone has hated Aquaman, its not a matter of hate. Its a matter of misinformation. If he hated Bane, I'd leave it at "so salty" and that's all. But instead, he tried to put us on blast when he didn't know what he was talking about, got blown up, and still claims the same thing. If he claims its 6-4 his favour, then it should be no trouble to prove it. No proof, no reason to suspect otherwise. If he loses to May tech and claims its new tech, then its a matter of learning. He learns, he grows, the MU changes.

At the moment, no growth has happened. Like Maxintensity25 said about GGA 16 Bit "The catwoman Mu is in our favour for now, but he is looking for more and more tech about the MU, and I can't say for sure it'll always be the way it is.".
 
Reactions: RYX

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Well yea, there are MUs where he has to be more careful with it. My only point is that alot of characters have to think twice before they attack Bane with venom because of the armor properties. That's his gimmick.
Yes, pretty much everyone from our 5.5-4.5 down has to be careful. Everyone even or above doesn't have to be.
 

Tom Brady

Champion
I remember when you said the new Mb b.3 buffs helped Aquaman when, barring a 8% drop in trade damage, it was no different at all.
Also going back and forth in sets with one person doesn't make a MU, or so I heard *cough cough*.

The thing is not only did you lose to one Bane, you lost to a good Bane and a Bane whom has nothing but basics. Sorry, DarthArma. I love you but your tech knowledge is where Grrs was back then too. There were no surprises to be had, if you didn't sit down and hash out the Bane MU then that's your own fault. We have more techs than you'll likely ever see, but you'll still find yourself being tossed around by just the very bare minimum. Mb b.3? Works on half-screen charge, and literally nothing else. You can ask GGA 16 Bit if Mb b.3 is a universal answer, and with all the times Max has blown him out of it using d.1/d.2xxSpecials I'd be surprised if he says yes. (not to discredit 16 bit, he is a great player but its Mb b.3 on trial here, not him.) The game is half a year old and we're still using the same stuff we found in May. If you haven't gotten it by now, its not the "surprise bitch imma throw this shit out" factor, its the "If you don't know exactly what to do, you'll likely lose" factor. The same thing Doomsday runs off of, only you weren't saying you'd wreck any DD player. You'll get blown up for it, yeah, to no end will you hear "Tom says he'll beat any Bane - Immediately loses to 2".

If he threw out 9999999 MB venom uppercuts and you didn't manage to use your ultra Mb b.3 on ANY of them, then I question everything. Qwark even put a video up. I know what you are thinking, "who the fuck is Qwark", but by the sound of what you're saying he's figured it out more than you have.

No Bane ever blocks? My god the cooldowns must be tragic for us. And Man, it makes sense that we are coming into multiple top 4s and even taking 2/3 of the top 3 in that tourney by never blocking. I can't imagine how hard it must be to beat someone who never blocks. Ever. On that note, know who else we don't need to block against?

Everything from "5.5-4.5" onwards.

Go get your button fixed, let your back heal, try to find a nearby ocean in which you can dispense your salt, beat some Bane player once, and then tell us all to hold that while we watch them run it back from losers and take you down along the way. :p


But all that said, I do respect you as a player, more than you'll ever know. Still, no. Its at least Bane's favour. You don't lose to 2 Banes if its a 4-6 your advantage, and you don't lose to a basic Bane if its even. DarthArma has been playing Bane for like what... a month maybe? I don't see, on paper or in practice, how AM has an advantage in this one. If you'd like to explain, sure, but we aren't just beating your trait. We are beating your trait, wake-ups, footsies, air game, ground game, Mb b.3 game... and we don't even have to spend meter to do it.


I'm sorry, usually I'd be more conservative, but seriously, no. You deserve this blow up, you know nothing of strength. I may be just the forum warrior, everpresent in my form, but even I can't help but seriously question the logic behind your ideas of the Bane MU. You should try picking him up. Get to top 4 without blocking. If you play Bane like you think we do, people won't even need Mb b.3 to stop you dead in your tracks. Blah blah, etc etc, and its done. Come what may, but until its shown otherwise I have no reason to not have AM in our favour. Talk is one thing, but results speak more than works.


If I don't know how to fight Bane then max must suck to trade sets with someone who doesn't even know how to fight the character (according to you) in a mu that the character i play loses (according to you)..

Grr and I also played a set which I won. Me making a few bad guesses in tourney doesn't = I don't know the mu nor does it mean AM loses. I dropped 99999 combos vs Arama and got hit a lot out of B3 because I couldn't MB B3 half the time because the fucking button broke 1st round of the tourney. Vs Grr.. I hit him with god knows how many wu scoops and only finished w/F2 rather then 22~MB FTD, F2 because my fucking MB button was stuck half the time. There are plenty of things that I could point to in those 2 sets. I do just fine vs every Bane, you are taking waaaaaaay too much away from just 2 sets.

I shook hands and said GGS to Grr and Arma and have no issue saying they out played me. Just know that there was a lot more going on the AM losing or "tom doesn't know the mu". Maybe I was out played? Maybe I made bad reads? Maybe my fucking MB button was fucked? Maybe its all of the above?

It is ridiculous for you to even pretend to act as if I don;t know shit here. If thats true, then a lot of good Bane's must suck because they lose games to players like me who "don't know"...

And the no blocking comment was meant for when Venom is active.. Which is what bane does. he certainly doesn't activate Venom to run away... Activate Venom and come in and go to town. Space out your armor specials so that the opponent CANNOT get 2 hits out before you connect. If the start to block rather then try to counter attack, then command throw them. If they start jumping back, then Venom Uppercut or Raging Charge. If they use MB B3 then come in with a poke into a special move. I know almost all of Bane's set ups as I have been put in those situations a lot in my sets with Max. I lost 2 sets, big fucking deal.. I assure you that Neither I nor Max come in the Bane or AM forum after winning a FT10 on each other and tell each other to "Hold that salt".
 

Tom Brady

Champion
and I have never said bane was free or that I own all Bane's. I said it was even or possibly 6-4 AM but that there is no adv for Bane. I have also said that I wouldn't argue even. I clearly said that I fight FT10 sets with the best known Bane player and we alternate who comes out on top.

MB B3 is VERY effective vs bane but I never claimed that it was all thats needed. However, going for a MB B3 but only getting B3 gets you hit, knocked down, and in trouble. That was one of my points.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
If I don't know how to fight Bane then max must suck to trade sets with someone who doesn't even know how to fight the character (according to you) in a mu that the character i play loses (according to you)..

Grr and I also played a set which I won. Me making a few bad guesses in tourney doesn't = I don't know the mu nor does it mean AM loses. I dropped 99999 combos vs Arama and got hit a lot out of B3 because I couldn't MB B3 half the time because the fucking button broke 1st round of the tourney. Vs Grr.. I hit him with god knows how many wu scoops and only finished w/F2 rather then 22~MB FTD, F2 because my fucking MB button was stuck half the time. There are plenty of things that I could point to in those 2 sets. I do just fine vs every Bane, you are taking waaaaaaay too much away from just 2 sets.

I shook hands and said GGS to Grr and Arma and have no issue saying they out played me. Just know that there was a lot more going on the AM losing or "tom doesn't know the mu". Maybe I was out played? Maybe I made bad reads? Maybe my fucking MB button was fucked? Maybe its all of the above?

It is ridiculous for you to even pretend to act as if I don;t know shit here. If thats true, then a lot of good Bane's must suck because they lose games to players like me who "don't know"...
Beating people doesn't require an intimate knowledge of the Mu, AM is a strong character and you are a strong player.
That doesn't mean you know the Bane MU, however. You claimed to have fought new techs but I watched the entire tourney and saw basics upon basics. Max loses, yeah, everyone loses. You could lose to me, even, and it wouldn't make you any less of a good player.

Trading sets with someone who won a few majors and consistently places with a character like AM is an achievement, even for someone with a winning Mu. We have our best MU against Grundy and GA, but that doesn't mean I'm going to beat Chris G and Tyrant every time. Is Max the best Bane? Grr or Arma? Mustard or Bipolar? Who knows, Banes don't play alike. I can say, however, that Max isn't a perfect Bane. I can trade sets with all the Banes, but that doesn't put me on your level.

But this isn't about trading sets, this is about knowing the MU. You claim you murder any other Bane aside from Max, but you've failed to do so. Your Mb button not working? That's a shame, but you shouldn't need MB b.3 to beat any Bane player. Its a crutch we make a sport out of destroying. You dropping combos against Arma is user error. Still doesn't mean you know the MU, and Arma's Bane is, as I've said, a very basic Bane.

You say things that are obviously incorrect about the character, the play styles, and the general flow of things. If you know Bane that in-depth, you shouldn't need Mb b.3 to blow him up. Likewise, if Grr knows AM as in-depth as he could he would know we can 113 your wake-ups every time and not have to worry about scoop. Two people, not knowing all the factors, went into a match and one prevailed. If you want to talk AM, I'll listen, but don't try to tell Bane players, me especially, how our character works and where we fall short. I can promise you, we've all investigated thoroughly how our character has trouble against Mb b.3. Theres a reason why we still have over half our list as disadvantages.

Players can be strong, and not have strong characters. However, if you are going to go out of your way to claim something, then you should make sure to deliver. You failed to, and you reap the blow-ups and the losses that come with it. Its simple. If you are going to murder other Banes, then murder Banes. Don't try to bullshit us about our character, though, it doesn't work.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Basically, you don't know Bane. Bane vs AM? You may know a little, I could probably show you some new tricks, but you can't claim that tactics that didn't work will work, or that things we've dealt with since the beginning of the game are suddenly still issues we've yet to work around.

As I've said a few times already, its not about losing, or who lost to who. Yes, you lost to 2 Banes. Obviously, your idea of what were solid tactics may not be as solid. Likewise, there are things Bane can do that would literally blow your mind into fish gibblets. That's the point though, your idea of whats a solid counter to Bane isn't actually as solid or as much of a counter as you think.

You're facing Banes on a higher level, and as far as results go I can't fathom how its 6-4 AM's favour. All the stuff you've said so far as been nothing short of tipped iceberg knowledge. Literally anything someone can tell you without taking even a slightly deeper look.

Do we lose to Mb b.3? If we are reckless, yes. Is Mb b.3 making all of our MUs bad ones or even though? The answer is no, in fact for the most part Mb b.3 plays a very VERY minor role in the matches when it comes to us. Our methods vary, but we've universally achieved an answer for avoiding MB b.3, its the other moves in their arsenals that determine our MUs. Otherwise, we'd have nothing but 0-10s barring like... Grundy and Arrow.

If you want to talk numbers, don't get antsy when people point out that while you have the right idea of what you can possibly do, you lack a full idea of what we can do on the other end.

Its like me telling you "Its 6-4 Bane because we can Mb b.3 everything Aquaman does". Do I feel its 6-4 Bane? No, I feel its 5.5-4.5 Bane, maybe 6-4 on a favorable stage. However, I don't go out of my way to tell you how your character works. I tell you, on paper, the tools my character has to work with and why they can overcome yours.
 

Tom Brady

Champion
Beating people doesn't require an intimate knowledge of the Mu, AM is a strong character and you are a strong player.
That doesn't mean you know the Bane MU, however. You claimed to have fought new techs but I watched the entire tourney and saw basics upon basics. Max loses, yeah, everyone loses. You could lose to me, even, and it wouldn't make you any less of a good player.

Trading sets with someone who won a few majors and consistently places with a character like AM is an achievement, even for someone with a winning Mu. We have our best MU against Grundy and GA, but that doesn't mean I'm going to beat Chris G and Tyrant every time. Is Max the best Bane? Grr or Arma? Mustard or Bipolar? Who knows, Banes don't play alike. I can say, however, that Max isn't a perfect Bane. I can trade sets with all the Banes, but that doesn't put me on your level.

But this isn't about trading sets, this is about knowing the MU. You claim you murder any other Bane aside from Max, but you've failed to do so. Your Mb button not working? That's a shame, but you shouldn't need MB b.3 to beat any Bane player. Its a crutch we make a sport out of destroying. You dropping combos against Arma is user error. Still doesn't mean you know the MU, and Arma's Bane is, as I've said, a very basic Bane.

You say things that are obviously incorrect about the character, the play styles, and the general flow of things. If you know Bane that in-depth, you shouldn't need Mb b.3 to blow him up. Likewise, if Grr knows AM as in-depth as he could he would know we can 113 your wake-ups every time and not have to worry about scoop. Two people, not knowing all the factors, went into a match and one prevailed. If you want to talk AM, I'll listen, but don't try to tell Bane players, me especially, how our character works and where we fall short. I can promise you, we've all investigated thoroughly how our character has trouble against Mb b.3. Theres a reason why we still have over half our list as disadvantages.

Players can be strong, and not have strong characters. However, if you are going to go out of your way to claim something, then you should make sure to deliver. You failed to, and you reap the blow-ups and the losses that come with it. Its simple. If you are going to murder other Banes, then murder Banes. Don't try to bullshit us about our character, though, it doesn't work.


Dude... you are not understanding here. I CLEARLY said to use many days ago "Not all players play alike and I can always learn from different play styles". There are many characters where I have fought god knows how many styles, Bane is not one of them. I didn't say I WOULD murder every other Bane besides Max, I said that I have done so to this point because IMO he is the only good one I have come across so far.

I didn't say I SHOULD need MB B3, I said making a read and going for it but not getting it doesn't help. There were plenty of times I would jump back and blow Bane up with jump 2 into full combo. For whatever reason you took me for some guy who came into the Bane forum and claimed Bane a free mu. You obviously didnt understand what I said. Maybe your Bane pride figured "another guy shitting on Bane" but you are wrong. In fact, I was THE FIRST up player of Bane ever since I fought Max for the first time...
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Maybe your Bane pride figured "other guy shitting on Bane" but you are wrong. In fact, I was THE FIRST up player of Bane....
Trust me, I know tom. I've followed your work since the early days of MK9, and when I heard you hyping Bane I couldn't stop myself from wanting to main him since the early "Ban the Testers" days. As far as "Bane pride", it has nothing to do with that. You give misinformation about our character, and that's the sum of it. I've said plenty of times now that you winning or losing was irrelevant, though point to be made your losses and what you said afterwards confirmed what I'm saying: You talk about Bane but you haven't looked into him enough to have an idea of whats truly a solid counter.

Its that, and that alone. You could go 20-0 against PND_Mustard for all I care, but being wrong is wrong. My character suffers from more misinformation being spread than any other, and I don't like the prospect of people being turned away on people saying "Just Mb b.3 to beat Bane" (Which, recall or not, you have said before). Even in the last stream you said "I'd just wait for the Mb b.3" but mb b.3 isn't even a solid answer. Yes, on a read it sucks when you can't get it, but saying that we use Mb VU to overcome it? We don't, in fact MB VU is just a metered excuse to get Mb b.3'd.

It comes down to this: You say things about Bane that, flatly, don't apply. As for 6-4 AM, not a chance. I could argue 5-5 on a bad stage for Bane, but there is literally nothing about AM I see that stops us. When we asked you, you told us how OUR character falls short, instead of how yours overcomes. I could care less, even or above isn't worth a fight since a winnable fight is a winnable fight (as I've said in the raven forums and a few others), but I don't like people who insist on harping on wrong info. I'd blow up anyone, anywhere, saying that Mb b.3 against Bane makes it their advantage. Its not just you, and I want to blow you up for it less than ANYONE else and I can't stress it enough but sit down and look into the character more. That's all I'll leave it at. I put AM on pending status, he has been there since I trolled RYX because while I want to, with all my heart, say Bane wins the MU I can't. Only, and only, because we've yet to hear your side of it for your character.

You're welcome to start any time you feel like, and we will give you the respect a player and community leader of your status deserves. This is a discussion, and we welcome people bringing in their perspectives, their sides of the story. We don't like people telling us our side, though, as we'd prefer to handle that ourselves.
 

Tom Brady

Champion
Trust me, I know tom. I've followed your work since the early days of MK9, and when I heard you hyping Bane I couldn't stop myself from wanting to main him since the early "Ban the Testers" days. As far as "Bane pride", it has nothing to do with that. You give misinformation about our character, and that's the sum of it. I've said plenty of times now that you winning or losing was irrelevant, though point to be made your losses and what you said afterwards confirmed what I'm saying: You talk about Bane but you haven't looked into him enough to have an idea of whats truly a solid counter.

Its that, and that alone. You could go 20-0 against PND_Mustard for all I care, but being wrong is wrong. My character suffers from more misinformation being spread than any other, and I don't like the prospect of people being turned away on people saying "Just Mb b.3 to beat Bane" (Which, recall or not, you have said before). Even in the last stream you said "I'd just wait for the Mb b.3" but mb b.3 isn't even a solid answer. Yes, on a read it sucks when you can't get it, but saying that we use Mb VU to overcome it? We don't, in fact MB VU is just a metered excuse to get Mb b.3'd.

It comes down to this: You say things about Bane that, flatly, don't apply. As for 6-4 AM, not a chance. I could argue 5-5 on a bad stage for Bane, but there is literally nothing about AM I see that stops us. When we asked you, you told us how OUR character falls short, instead of how yours overcomes. I could care less, even or above isn't worth a fight since a winnable fight is a winnable fight (as I've said in the raven forums and a few others), but I don't like people who insist on harping on wrong info. I'd blow up anyone, anywhere, saying that Mb b.3 against Bane makes it their advantage. Its not just you, and I want to blow you up for it less than ANYONE else and I can't stress it enough but sit down and look into the character more. That's all I'll leave it at. I put AM on pending status, he has been there since I trolled RYX because while I want to, with all my heart, say Bane wins the MU I can't. Only, and only, because we've yet to hear your side of it for your character.

You're welcome to start any time you feel like, and we will give you the respect a player and community leader of your status deserves. This is a discussion, and we welcome people bringing in their perspectives, their sides of the story. We don't like people telling us our side, though, as we'd prefer to handle that ourselves.

And trust me.. I am breaking down Bane to a science as we speak which is usually bad news lol. I already have found some pretty good anti Bane just today. Very anxious to test it. That being said, I have done very well vs this character overall at high levels of play WITHOUT ever taking him into the lab... Now, its time..
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
And trust me.. I am breaking down Bane to a science as we speak which is usually bad news lol. I already have found some pretty good anti Bane just today. Very anxious to test it.
Not to give the enemy any extra ammo, but if you want to see some of our techs I was talking about...
http://www.youtube.com/user/kingofcombos/videos

I have a lot of them listed there, and I tend to update with anything new I find. I've done some anti-AM work, myself, and I'm just editing the video before it goes live.

If you're looking to test your mettle, I'm always up for a match as long as its on PSN.

As a little preview of things to come:
 

YOMI DJT

LIn Kuei Champion
I can agree on it being an even matchup. I don't even like using numbers anymore just doesn't make sense to me.
GL keeps bane out he wins
Bane gets in GL gets massacred.

I think the start of this mu means a lot.
I feel that whoever gets started early wins this match from my experience.
 
Reactions: RYX

YOMI DJT

LIn Kuei Champion
GL's trait comes back pretty fast for lots of gatling gun zoning and air rockets recover faster
Personally I feel GL wins it. I feel at the highest lvl bane is not getting in very often.
Seems like a frustrating matchup for bane players but I have never took the time to break down bane matchup.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
GL's trait comes back pretty fast for lots of gatling gun zoning and air rockets recover faster
Personally I feel GL wins it. I feel at the highest lvl bane is not getting in very often.
Seems like a frustrating matchup for bane players but I have never took the time to break down bane matchup.
The thing is, once your trait is down, its a matter of one baited gatling gun.
We only need to get in once, as you probably know. The odds of you keeping us out indefinitely are much smaller than our odds of getting in.
 
You can also command throw him out of scoop too.

I've been doing this to my friend who seconds aquaman since week 2; nullifies his WU game WITH proper timing.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
You can do anything that's 20 frames or less and it'll stuff it all.
Anything more than 20 frames won't.

Command grab has to be just-framed, but it'll beat everything that isn't a jump.