Balance Change Council

[xInfra Deadx]

stuff

That must have took all day to write down lol

 

[Big Pampering]

No one ever said it's not full combo punishable on block. Wtf are you even talking about lol?

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe Kung Lao's pressure isn't designed to be continuous in the style that you want it to be? His strings don't even lend themselves to continuous pressure whatsoever. 8f spin is still really good. Again, full body hitbox that beats ANY normal in the game. Hell, it even bypasses P1 advantage.

Look at what KL's strings do:

1121 - PUSHBACK at neutral
2 - Does not land on crouch block on most characters
24 - -1 point blank...most characters will outspeed KL while avoiding 2
241+2 - Too negative to continue anything
21 - Affected by 2 heavily
b33 - Doesn't really do much other than is KL's fastest non-spin option to hit a crouching opponent while leading to something

Does this shit look like it's meant for continuous pressure? Not really.

Dude that info is so wrong lol:

1121 leaves you at point blank
2 lands on crouch block on all characters but mileena and sektor
24 is -1 which makes his spin 7 frames and standing 2 8 frames, speed isnt the problem here because only a few characters have a normal faster than 8 frames. they get out by poking or armor
2412, is when you actually attempt to hit the oppponent with overhead, when this gets blocked the OPPONENT has to guess what to do because it has good pushback and they will have to pressure you with a fast string and if that string is not mid, kung lao can interrupt you with his pokes.

the whole idea is to make them respect your spin if you want to continue your offense, so the follow ups are never guaranteed and you have to guess what the opponent is going to do.

Who even attempts to continue pressure with the threat of a spin? Absolutely no one. That shit stopped ages ago when KL's spin got nerfed in the first place.

the only reason people keep blocking after 1121/21 on block is because of the threat of a spin. and how was this even related to prepatch spin, it was only harder to punish. and for your information I actually started to play kung lao when everybody dropped him after the last patch which was 1,5 year ago, so I never had the mindset of a prepatch kung lao player.

 

[THTB]

Dude that info is so wrong lol:

1121 leaves you at point blank
2 lands on crouch block on all characters but mileena and sektor
24 is -1 which makes his spin 7 frames and standing 2 8 frames, speed isnt the problem here because only a few characters have a normal faster than 8 frames. they get out by poking or armor
2412, is when you actually attempt to hit the oppponent with overhead, when this gets blocked the OPPONENT has to guess what to do because it has good pushback and they will have to pressure you with a fast string and if that string is not mid, kung lao can interrupt you with his pokes.

1121 does NOT leave you point blank. The fuck?

At -1, a majority of characters in the game can already d1 you out of spin at that point.

241+2 doesn't continue pressure, am I correct?

I am wrong about 2, sorry. But it still whiffs on neutral crouch. If the opponent blocks 24, they are already crouch blocking. 2 won't really do shit in this instance.

 

[Big Pampering]

1121 does NOT leave you point blank. The fuck?

At -1, a majority of characters in the game can already d1 you out of spin at that point.

241+2 doesn't continue pressure, am I correct?

I am wrong about 2, sorry. But it still whiffs on neutral crouch. If the opponent blocks 24, they are already crouch blocking. 2 won't really do shit in this instance.

1121 doesnt have any pushback at all what are you talking about? if you mean on hit, then you were wrong on the being neutral part because it is +6 I believe on hit but that is iirelevant because it should be canceled into spin on hit anyway.

at -1 or not doesnt make the difference of lao getting d1's at all. kung lao can be at + 10 or even more and he could still get d'1 out of his 7 frame standing 1. the true reason why it doesnt grant offense is because standing 2 isnt mid.

24+12 doesnt continue pressure ofcourse look at my other post at the purpose of this string on block. on hit het gets heavy knockdown. and his low hat and f2 can otg which is great for this situation.

if speed was all you need and not something that actually hits mid, kung lao would be op, look at the frame data on hit:

21 =+6, so another standing 2 comes out at 1 frame actually, but a 12 frame d4 still beats it because the move doesnt hit mid.
24=+4
1121"= +6

 

[OutworldKeith]

STB Espio The reason why U3 is so important, at least for my particular play style, is because it allows jade to have a threat midscreen. Currently, the cast simply neutral ducks all of her good tools away. 4 has a stellar hitbox, and if that linked to staff slam you would have a 12 frame full combo punish tool, which with Jade's current skill set, I think is more than fair. If the opponents have to respect that combo starter, they will be forced to at least constantly be blocking which paves the way for more pressure games. This would be particularly effective midscreen where shadow kicks and u3 would be an effective mind game. She could travel in against characters like cage, sonya etc with a lot less risk than now due to them having to guess between the u3 and the shadow kick (if they are blocking low, the shadow kick is safe).

Never thought of that. Probably because she still had the best range out of any of the characters I use.

 

[THTB]

1121 doesnt have any pushback at all what are you talking about? if you mean on hit, then you were wrong on the being neutral part because it is +6 I believe on hit but that is iirelevant because it should be canceled into spin on hit anyway.

at -1 or not doesnt make the difference of lao getting d1's at all. kung lao can be at + 10 or even more and he could still get d'1 out of his 7 frame standing 1.

24+12 doesnt continue pressure ofcourse look at my other post at the purpose of this string on block. on hit het gets heavy knockdown. and his low hat and f2 can otg which is great for this situation.

1121 does have pushback that you aren't noticing. It puts you out of range of another 1 for sure. I forget what else is also out of range.

At -1, Kung Lao can't even spin you. It will be stuffed.

 

[OutworldKeith]

HE NEEDS IT

So, no.

Yeah Subz needs that 8f d4. Besides it's only +8. Cyrax is like +16 on his d4

 

[Big Pampering]

1121 does have pushback that you aren't noticing. It puts you out of range of another 1 for sure. I forget what else is also out of range.

At -1, Kung Lao can't even spin you. It will be stuffed.

after 1121 you should use 21/24 if you decide to pressure. Im pretty sure you can do another 1121, because after 1121 you can do b33 which has horrible range. even if there was a small pushback it would be irrelevant because if the opponent thinks youre gonna spin they are going to block and you can do a 1121 with a small dash if there is a pushback

with 24 on block being only at-1 means almost nothing. nobody mashes d1 after 24 because they are afraid of the overhead followup that might combo. the disadvantage will be long gone by then

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

just reading this..... while all the "what ifs" are cool

man some of you have GOT to get offline sometime. Just experience the game where you can poke and backdash.... where you don't have to anticipate moves....but react to them

my goodness.

 

[Konqrr]

Why are you assuming I want lao pressure to be like cage pressure? It is very insulting to accuse someone to not know how to play the character after I mained him for a year and a half. 8 frame doesnt beat any normal in the game, sonya and sektor have a 7 frame jab that can beat it. your character has a 6 frame dash that beats it. anyone can poke the spin if they want if it is 8 frames. the last sentence you wrote there only applies to 6 frame spin, 1 frame slower takes all that stuff away.

all you say is 6 frame spin with best priority in the game. kung laos offense is not continuoes even with 6 frame spin. after any 21/1121 on block the pressure is over. if he actually wants to continue his offense he has to spin to beat the opponents pokes. once they respect the spin you can start another spring because they respect you. so he has to guess for another block string or back away, if you take away the spin, he will have to be on the defence after any of his strings that are on neutral, which is not how he is designed to be played.

It's called risk/reward.

My f21 is 18f. My other mid is 33 which is 12f and I have to be humping your leg to get it to not whiff and to get a combo off of it I have to use meter.

just reading this..... while all the "what ifs" are cool

man some of you have GOT to get offline sometime. Just experience the game where you can poke and backdash.... where you don't have to anticipate moves....but react to them

my goodness.

Fucking AMEN

 

[Big Pampering]

It's called risk/reward.

My f21 is 18f. My other mid is 33 which is 12f and I have to be humping your leg to get it to not whiff and to get a combo off of it I have to use meter.


Fucking AMEN

your character isnt as rushdown oriented as lao at all. your rushdown consists of a lot of whiffed poke punishing and f21 does a great job in that. f21 isnt a string to be used up close it moves a lot forward, laos strings dont advance forward.

 

[Seapeople]

Reptile's f2 input should be changed to f1.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

I've got a few:

General
- "Input bug" removed
- "Invisible wall" in the corner when opponent is in blockstun removed
- Inability to block after whiffing a jump punch fixed
- All "random advantage" on certain moves when blocked are removed
- Remove "Meter Drain" glitch
- The hit level of all attacks hit the way they were intended against all characters, regardless of hitbox size.
- Invincibility glitch removed
- Random pushback on certain moves fixed (Lao 21212 and Sub 214~clone to name two)
- Decreased negative edge
- Tournament Mode in option menu that removes all foreground elements, Toasty Boost, and certain stages (manually selectable) from all matches.
- Button mapping on the pause menu
- "Default" button config brought back in addition to the four programmable ones.


Kung Lao
- Spin 8f startup
- Extra armor glitch on EX Teleport to a late 1 removed
+ Low hat recovery reduced from -12 to -10

I agree with the general stuff, but the 8f spin would be a bad idea, purely because you could beat KL by just D4ing him all game, and there would be nothing he could do about it. The whole point of the spin is to destroy pokes, since his own pokes are pretty crappy.

 

[Big Pampering]

I agree with the general stuff, but the 8f spin would be a bad idea, purely because you could beat KL by just D4ing him all game, and there would be nothing he could do about it.

THANK YOU

 

[Konqrr]

I agree with the general stuff, but the 8f spin would be a bad idea, purely because you could beat KL by just D4ing him all game, and there would be nothing he could do about it. The whole point of the spin is to destroy pokes, since his own pokes are pretty crappy.

The only d4 that that makes sense on is Sub's at 8f.

An 8f launcher that gives him 30-40% is ridiculous and the threat of it makes his jabs good.

 

[THTB]

Reptile's f2 input should be changed to f1.

I thought I was the only person that thought this.

 

[kronspik]

I agree with the general stuff, but the 8f spin would be a bad idea, purely because you could beat KL by just D4ing him all game, and there would be nothing he could do about it. The whole point of the spin is to destroy pokes, since his own pokes are pretty crappy.

Huh? Isn't the fastest D4 9 frames?

 

[THTB]

Huh? Isn't the fastest D4 9 frames?

Fastest d4 is 8 frames.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

The only d4 that that makes sense on is Sub's at 8f.

An 8f launcher that gives him 30-40% is ridiculous and the threat of it makes his jabs good.

Anybody with a 7f d3 could d3 him for free after every blockstring, that means that he'd either have to d1 and hope for a trade, or cross over. Its not hard to option select a d3 with an anti cross over, so basically that'd be his entire rushdown game gone.

He cant whiff punish whiffed d3s or d1s too easily, and if he does he'll be using 2 4. So he'd have to be in the correct stance, and hoping the other player isnt also ducking.

His d1 doesnt mean anything because everything of any use he could follow it up with is immediately high. His own d3 is 9f, so becomes useless.

Anyway, KL gets 30+ % on his naked spin. If you block the spin, most characters will get more damage, you spoke about risk reward, the risk is mainly in KLs opponents favour when it comes to that guessing game.

 

[THTB]

Making his d3 7f would help here.

 

[GGA Jeremiah]

If Sheeva's Low Grab can punish blocked Slides legitimately, would she be broken?

No she wouldn't. You could even buff her fireball so people can't slide under it and she would still not be too good. She needs a laundry list.

 

[Konqrr]

Anybody with a 7f d3 could d3 him for free after every blockstring, that means that he'd either have to d1 and hope for a trade, or cross over. Its not hard to option select a d3 with an anti cross over, so basically that'd be his entire rushdown game gone.

Seriously wtf? Every character in the game except for Reptile and Kung Lao have to deal with someone low poking them after a blockstring because they don't have a 6f special to check them with. Even Kenshi has to deal with it after a blocked SC but does that stop him? NO

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Making his d3 7f would help here.

Nah because he'd still be lacking something quick and mid hitting, you'd still be able to low poke him all game.

That'd completely switch up the SZ matchup, SZ could just d4 all day since its 8f and neutral, it will eventually chip him out, KL would have to jump all over the place. SZ could make a legit offense by just spamming d4 and baiting the spin in between with no fear of a standing hitconfirmable attack retaliation

Seriously wtf? Every character in the game except for Reptile and Kung Lao have to deal with someone low poking them after a blockstring because they don't have a 6f special to check them with. Even Kenshi has to deal with it after a blocked SC but does that stop him? NO

Look at it this way, every other character in the game has at least 1 decent mid hitting, hitconfirmable move, other than Sonya Sektor and KL.

KL has the spin to compensate
Sonya has the divekick & 6f d1 to compensate
Sektor has a 6f starter and 6f d1 to compensate

Overall as the game stands, Kung Lao is examplary for balance. He dishes out damage, but recieves it too, based on the same parts of his movelist.

 

[Maxter]

THANK YOU

I'M WITH YOU ON THIS ONE, lAO DOESN'T NEED ANY NERFS, SCRUBS DON'T KNOW HOW TO POKE OUT OF HIS PRESSURE, MOST OF HIS PRESSURE CAN BE AVOIDED BY JUST POKING, ALL POKES AUTO DUCK ON 1ST FRAME, IT SEEMS TO BE THAT THEY PLAY TOO MUCH ONLINE, kUNG lAO IS PERFECTLY BALANCE, ONLY SCRUBS AREN'T.
tHIS GAME jUST NEED BUFFS ON LOW TIERS AND LEAVE TOP THE WAY THEY ARE, BUFFING LOWS AND NERFING TOPS WILL UNBALANCE THE GAME AND LOWS WILL BE TOP TIER, THIS THREAD MAKES ME PUKE, I THOUGHT NO THREAD LIKE THIS WILL EVER BE MADE. I'LL START SOME DRAMA SOON SO IT IS CLOSED DON'T WORRY.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Nah because he'd still be lacking something quick and mid hitting, you'd still be able to low poke him all game.

That'd completely switch up the SZ matchup, SZ could just d4 all day since its 8f and neutral, it will eventually chip him out, KL would have to jump all over the place. SZ could make a legit offense by just spamming d4 and baiting the spin in between with no fear of a standing hitconfirmable attack retaliation




Look at it this way, every other character in the game has at least 1 decent mid hitting, hitconfirmable move, other than Sonya Sektor and KL.

KL has the spin to compensate
Sonya has the divekick & 6f d1 to compensate
Sektor has a 6f starter and 6f d1 to compensate

how is delayed tele3 not a good mid HC string?

I'm clearly just asking here.... i mean... KL can jump alot in most matches... and this is how you approach (till people learn to back dash at least).