Balance Change Council

[Konqrr]

no I dont think you understand the issue of not having a mid. even if kung lao is on + a simple uppercut/d1/d3/d4 can interrupt whatever he does, he cannot start any pressure unless he has something to make you respect his high strings, which is a spin that can beat pokes.

you dont need to respect the spin if you have a 7 frame d3 and a 6frame d1, you will be able to punish their second poke if they decide to machine gun poke you but they can also poke and block and you will be throwing random spins to beat simple pokes even if they are at disadvantage. unless you block their poke they will always be faster.

it just messes up how this character is designed in the first place. first of all the 6 frame launcher is not safe, if speed is all youre going by sektor also has a 6 frame launcher that is safe, but why is it not as good? because it doesnt hit mid...

I understand completely. So Lao wouldn't have a 6-7f mid that leads to a full combo... join the club for 99% of the cast.

You are so worried about d1/d3 that do no damage and are very easy to counter poke and change momentum. Stop playing MK9 like it's 2011. An 8f launcher is still gdlk.

Sektor has no range on that string, the 2 whiffs unless you are right next to them. Also, it's used as a punisher string not a launcher to just "throw out".

You can remove the resets by turning every frame of an airborne second net into airborne state, and extend the net's hitstun.

Remove their hitbox entirely for the duration of the second net animation. That might work... however, they would just time the net earlier so they come out of it just in time for BAM, bombzzzz.

The second bomb just shouldn't come out, thus negating the majority of most of the damaging resets.

 

[crosstalk]

Cage is already dangerous as hell lol.

Eh, they wouldn't change his game that much. The last two nerfs he received (f32 and lower nut punch damage) really didn't make sense. I'd be happy with just making F32 cancel into specials again. F32 xx nut punch only did 19%, compared with f33 x nutpunch which does 22%.

 

[THTB]

Eh, they wouldn't change his game that much. The last two nerfs he received (f32 and lower nut punch damage) really didn't make sense. I'd be happy with just making F32 cancel into specials again. F32 xx nut punch only does 19%, compared with f33 x nutpunch which does 22%.

f32 nutpunch is extremely hitconfirmable, has more range than f33, and moves forward throughout the entire duration, making it pretty solid even if the opponent crosses you up.

 

[RYX]

Make Sheeva faster, at like, everything. Everything should be faster. Speed is good.

Also, am I the only person who thinks Raiden is almost as balanced as Sektor? lol

 

[crosstalk]

f32 nutpunch is extremely hitconfirmable, has more range than f33, and moves forward throughout the entire duration, making it pretty solid even if the opponent crosses you up.

This is true, and as I said before, this can help Cage in his more difficult MUs. F33 is pretty easy to hit confirm too - it is 3 hits.

 

[THTB]

This is true, and as I said before, this can help Cage in his more difficult MUs. F33 is pretty easy to hit confirm too - it is 3 hits.

No, you think f33 is hitconfirmable, do f32 nutpunch in pre-patch MK9.

This wouldn't help vs Kabal, and it wouldn't help vs Kenshi.

 

[Lumpymoomilk]

 

[Big Pampering]

I understand completely. So Lao wouldn't have a 6-7f mid that leads to a full combo... join the club for 99% of the cast.

You are so worried about d1/d3 that do no damage and are very easy to counter poke and change momentum. Stop playing MK9 like it's 2011. An 8f launcher is still gdlk.

Sektor has no range on that string, the 2 whiffs unless you are right next to them. Also, it's used as a punisher string not a launcher to just "throw out".

name me one character that is not bottom 10 that doesnt have a mid hitting string to use or at least something that can be replaced to start mid offense, like good zoning tools or other footsie tools that prevent a player from just sitting there. and how is a full combo punishable spin something to just throw out. characters have a string they can follow up after a poke on hit.

so please tell me what a lao player should do after a d3 on hit? spin them if they try to poke? people dont understand the game lao has to play. what youre basically saying is that lao should just throw out the spin if he is at +2 or more to actually start something.

why are you accusing me of playing the game like its 2011? you really dont understand the issue of taking away his only tool that can beat pokes.

your character has f21 which is safe and 21 doesnt hit mid but outranges pokes completely and the second hit in that string has even better range, you can use fans to zone, you have that d1 with a crazy range and one of the best d3's in the game. the whole reason kitana does well against lao is because of lao doesnt have a fast enough mid to stop kitana from doeing what she does.


it doesnt matter if lao gets a poke in, all the other character has to do is poke back and they ARE able to start offense because they have a mid hitting string.


people dont understand the importance of a high and a mid.

 

[TakeAChance]

STB Espio The reason why U3 is so important, at least for my particular play style, is because it allows jade to have a threat midscreen. Currently, the cast simply neutral ducks all of her good tools away. 4 has a stellar hitbox, and if that linked to staff slam you would have a 12 frame full combo punish tool, which with Jade's current skill set, I think is more than fair. If the opponents have to respect that combo starter, they will be forced to at least constantly be blocking which paves the way for more pressure games. This would be particularly effective midscreen where shadow kicks and u3 would be an effective mind game. She could travel in against characters like cage, sonya etc with a lot less risk than now due to them having to guess between the u3 and the shadow kick (if they are blocking low, the shadow kick is safe).

 

[THTB]

Snip

Name one character who has a 6f mid launcher that has the most dominant hitbox in the entire game. Besides Kung Lao.

u3 nerf was awful for Jade. It being mid was huge, because it gave her a 15f half screen mid. It made her extremely threatening. That shit needs to come back ASAP.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Sub-Zero's down 4 to be 12 frames.

HE NEEDS IT

So, no.

 

[Big Pampering]

Name one character who has a 6f mid launcher that has the most dominant hitbox in the entire game. Besides Kung Lao.

u3 nerf was awful for Jade. It being mid was huge, because it gave her a 15f half screen mid. It made her extremely threatening. That shit needs to come back ASAP.

stop throwing that 6 frame talk out like it isnt full combo punishable on block. dont get me wrong, im not downplaying the spin at all, but the spin doesnt work as it is supposed to work if it is 1 frame slower than it is now.

the spin is a big risk big reward thing. any other good character can follow their pokes up safely, or at least have some other tools that serve the same purpose.

All people can say that the spin is 6 frames, can somebody who wants to make the spin slower actually give an answer as to how kung lao should use his offense if the spin would be 7 frames or slower. because right now you are just repeating the same thing over and over again without even understanding what the problem is.

 

[Espio]

HE NEEDS IT

So, no.

lol this is a great reason, leave it in .

 

[RYX]

stop throwing that 6 frame talk out like it isnt full combo punishable on block. dont get me wrong, im not downplaying the spin at all, but the spin doesnt work as it is supposed to work if it is 1 frame slower than it is now.

the spin is a big risk big reward thing. any other good character can follow their pokes up safely, or at least have some other tools that serve the same purpose.

All people can say that the spin is 6 frames, can somebody who wants to make the spin slower actually give an answer as to how kung lao should use his offense if the spin would be 7 frames or slower. because right now you are just repeating the same thing over and over again without even understanding what the problem is.

even with an 8 frame spin he still has a really good air game that basically says fuck you to the majority of ground-based characters. I think he needs the 6 frame spin even if it's frustrating as fuck to get hit by it, but even an 8 frame spin could probably blow up most blocked pokes or whiff punishing D4's.

 

[THTB]

stop throwing that 6 frame talk out like it isnt full combo punishable on block. dont get me wrong, im not downplaying the spin at all, but the spin doesnt work as it is supposed to work if it is 1 frame slower than it is now.

the spin is a big risk big reward thing. any other good character can follow their pokes up safely, or at least have some other tools that serve the same purpose.

All people can say that the spin is 6 frames, can somebody who wants to make the spin slower actually give an answer as to how kung lao should use his offense if the spin would be 7 frames or slower. because right now you are just repeating the same thing over and over again without even understanding what the problem is.

No one ever said it's not full combo punishable on block. Wtf are you even talking about lol?

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe Kung Lao's pressure isn't designed to be continuous in the style that you want it to be? His strings don't even lend themselves to continuous pressure whatsoever. 8f spin is still really good. Again, full body hitbox that beats ANY normal in the game. Hell, it even bypasses P1 advantage.

Look at what KL's strings do:

1121 - PUSHBACK at neutral
2 - Does not land on crouch block on most characters
24 - -1 point blank...most characters will outspeed KL while avoiding 2
241+2 - Too negative to continue anything
21 - Affected by 2 heavily
b33 - Doesn't really do much other than is KL's fastest non-spin option to hit a crouching opponent while leading to something

Does this shit look like it's meant for continuous pressure? Not really.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

lol this is a great reason, leave it in .

I'm completely serious.

Sub-Zero needs ZERO nerfs.

He doesn't really need any buffs either. Characters need to be buffed and nerfed to his level. I think he is fairly balanced.

He has no overwhelmingly fast normals like Kung Lao, Sonya, or Sektor. He doesn't have the ungodly damage of the Cyraxs or Smokes out there. Doesn't have the Zoning of the Freddys. Doesn't have the mix-ups of the Kabals. Doesn't have the rush down of the Cages. Doesn't have the armor of the Kenshis. Doesn't have the safe launchers, etc.

He's got a clone (which armor and proximity rape), A corner trap, and a fast D4.

That's it.

 

[THTB]

He doesn't really need any buffs either. Characters need to be buffed and nerfed to his level. I think he is fairly balanced.

I've been saying this for a while, but no one really wants to understand why only buffing will do no good to the balance of the game. A vast number of the greatest FGs in history have seen a mixture of both nerfs and buffs to get where they are.

 

[Mattman]

i didnt want to go through all the pages on this thread to find out if anybody already said this but they really need to improve the "expert" mode in the ladder. especially for characters with disabling specials (sub's freeze, rax's net, nomad dash). when the AI hits you with one of these most of the time they just dance in front of you until you recover, and if they do actually hit you the most they can pull of is one combo string (Rain is the exception, AI Rain is a gangsta)

 

[REO]

THTB, when is the council taking place? I try not too check this thread too often because some of these suggestions make me want to throw up. Some of these lunatics are trying to turn Kabal into a character with as much depth as his Armageddon counterpart.

 

[THTB]

i didnt want to go through all the pages on this thread to find out if anybody already said this but they really need to improve the "expert" mode in the ladder. especially for characters with disabling specials (sub's freeze, rax's net, nomad dash). when the AI hits you with one of these most of the time they just dance in front of you until you recover, and if they do actually hit you the most they can pull of is one combo string (Rain is the exception, AI Rain is a gangsta)

This never came up because the AI isn't a focal point in character balancing.

 

[Big Pampering]

No one ever said it's not full combo punishable on block. Wtf are you even talking about lol?

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe Kung Lao's pressure isn't designed to be continuous in the style that you want it to be? His strings don't even lend themselves to continuous pressure whatsoever. 8f spin is still really good. Again, full body hitbox that beats ANY normal in the game. Hell, it even bypasses P1 advantage.

Why are you assuming I want lao pressure to be like cage pressure? It is very insulting to accuse someone to not know how to play the character after I mained him for a year and a half. 8 frame doesnt beat any normal in the game, sonya and sektor have a 7 frame jab that can beat it. your character has a 6 frame dash that beats it. anyone can poke the spin if they want if it is 8 frames. the last sentence you wrote there only applies to 6 frame spin, 1 frame slower takes all that stuff away.

all you say is 6 frame spin with best priority in the game. kung laos offense is not continuoes even with 6 frame spin. after any 21/1121 on block the pressure is over. if he actually wants to continue his offense he has to spin to beat the opponents pokes. once they respect the spin you can start another spring because they respect you. so he has to guess for another block string or back away, if you take away the spin, he will have to be on the defence after any of his strings that are on neutral, which is not how he is designed to be played.

 

[THTB]

THTB, when is the council taking place? I try not too check this thread too often because some of these suggestions make me want to throw up. Some of these lunatics are trying to turn Kabal into a character with as much depth as his Armageddon counterpart.

GamerBlake90 When would you want to do this?

 

[Mattman]

This never came up because the AI isn't a focal point in character balancing.

yes of course, while is was searching to see if anybody had mentioned the AI i seemed to lose sight of the whole point of the thread lol. my bad

 

[THTB]

Why are you assuming I want lao pressure to be like cage pressure? It is very insulting to accuse someone to not know how to play the character after I mained him for a year and a half. 8 frame doesnt beat any normal in the game, sonya and sektor have a 7 frame jab that can beat it. your character has a 6 frame dash that beats it. anyone can poke the spin if they want if it is 8 frames. the last sentence you wrote there only applies to 6 frame spin, 1 frame slower takes all that stuff away.

all you say is 6 frame spin with best priority in the game. kung laos offense is not continuoes even with 6 frame spin. after any 21/1121 on block the pressure is over. if he actually wants to continue his offense he has to spin to beat the opponents pokes. once they respect the spin you can start another spring because they respect you. so he has to guess for another block string or back away, if you take away the spin, he will have to be on the defence after any of his strings that are on neutral, which is not how he is designed to be played.

Who even attempts to continue pressure with the threat of a spin? Absolutely no one. That shit stopped ages ago when KL's spin got nerfed in the first place.

 

[OutworldKeith]

He would be a much more effective zoner which is what he is.

Good point, but that will also mean he still gets fucked in MUs where he can't zone effectively. Buffing his normals would still make him a more competitive character.