Question - Ferra/Torr Ask Ferra Thread – Information & Q/As

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

Question. So Ferr/thor 50/50 after B121 you can go into ferra toss overhead or low from where you get a little advantage and you can then repeat. My question is how do you get out of this?. Delayed wakeup doesn't work because the string hasn't finished by the time the character stands up. If you block you can't seem to poke out because Thor seems to be left at advantage in either the low or the overhead on block. I know you can armor through the overhead toss or you can armor wake up if you get knocked out. But if you are trapped in the corner with no bar or with a character with no armor how do you get out?

Also there is a hole cancelling into the OH throw, not sure about the low though

 

[Shade667]

Quick question. What are bf2, db2 and bf4 on block? Are they the same as listed in the frame data? the game says that db2 is -1 on block but I heard honeybee say it was like +3 or something.

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

Quick question. What are bf2, db2 and bf4 on block? Are they the same as listed in the frame data? the game says that db2 is -1 on block but I heard honeybee say it was like +3 or something.

I had heard it was +5, bf2 seems to be right, pretty minus. bf4 may be minus but its got enough pushback to make it difficult to really punish

 

[Barrogh]

Jumping tests look like bowl girl is not that minus... But coming from me, it's unreliable.

Also bots seem to treat b121~close toss, d1 as true block string. That may or may not mean that:

- close toss is significantly better than +5 (is this character-specific?);
- low profiling between b121 and close toss seem like something you can't do (character-specific again?), although I haven't tried;
- my testing sucks.

 

[Shade667]

Do close toss and mid toss have differing data after b121?

 

[Trauma_and_Pain]

What you have to consider is that it's a projectile, so the frames will change depending on exactly when contact is made. Obviously it will be more plus on block if done at longer range since Torr is recovering while Ferra is traveling to the opponent. I think this is why the frame data is funky.

As far as I can tell the frames are identical for the versions of Ferra Toss.

DB2 is definitely plus on block in practice.

Also bots seem to treat b121~close toss, d1 as true block string.

Not only that, but B121 xx DB2, 2 is a true block string if you time it just right. I believe 2 is 8 frame startup so that would make it +8 at contact distance, plus more at longer distance.

 

[Barrogh]

What you have to consider is that it's a projectile, so the frames will change depending on exactly when contact is made. Obviously it will be more plus on block if done at longer range since Torr is recovering while Ferra is traveling to the opponent. I think this is why the frame data is funky.

That's what actually happens, yes. I believe that frame advantage is hitbox-specific for this reason, we can already see it with far and close b232+4 already, although it is not a projectile.

Oh, almost forgot. Up-close distance between you and the opponent will most likely be normalized while you are hitting him due to your advance, so frame data may wary, but not wildly, especially with strings like b121.

Not only that, but B121 xx DB2, 2 is a true block string if you time it just right. I believe 2 is 8 frame startup so that would make it +8 at contact distance, plus more at longer distance.

Good point, when I was testing this I felt that d1 wasn't hard to connect, so there's definitely more advantage.
Just for the record though, d1 still looks like a better idea due to reliability and block advantage, but that's besides the point.

 

[Doombawkz]

Because Ferra operates as a seperate hitbox, she carries over some of the cancel advantage.
f.2xxferra toss 4 is a true block string, for example.

Quick question. What are bf2, db2 and bf4 on block? Are they the same as listed in the frame data? the game says that db2 is -1 on block but I heard honeybee say it was like +3 or something.

b.f.2 (bowl girl) can be anywhere from -6 to +24 depending on when the opponent blocks the slide.
d.b.2 (ferra toss) can be anywhere from +6 to +11 depending on what you cancel into it with.
b.f.4 (boss toss) is anywhere from -2 to +5, with one exception where hitting it on an opponent standing up at the very end of her arc makes it like +9

 

[Barrogh]

Because Ferra operates as a seperate hitbox, she carries over some of the cancel advantage.
f.2xxferra toss 4 is a true block string, for example.

I'm not sure I understand how exactly that works. What I always thought is that more range you have between you and your opponent -> more time it takes Ferra to travel before hitbox collision -> blockstun is inflicted later, -> opponent comes out of blockstun later -> more block advantage.
I was pretty sure that blocked f2 into described followup may have different advantage depending on range from which you attack. Considering that f2 has relatively long range and doesn't move you forward, it may leave you at larger distance ensuring that ferra will connect later for more advantage...

Also I don't quite think that this is exclusive to projectiles, same goes to attacks with several active frames. For example, Raiden's shocker is notoriously unsafe against 6f reversals if cancelled out of string that doesn't provide enough pushback (I guess; I don't remember exactly which one).

This is how I though it works.

Also it's a shame that things like these numerical titbits are left to inhabit obscure corners of discussion threads, never getting to see the light of OP and are hard to find later.

 

[Trauma_and_Pain]

Also it's a shame that things like these numerical titbits are left to inhabit obscure corners of discussion threads, never getting to see the light of OP and are hard to find later.

Yupp. Most players trying to learn the character will open the menu, see DB2 is -1 on Block and never investigate beyond that. If the frame data had eyes, Ferra would carve them out.

 

[Wetdoba]

Because Ferra operates as a seperate hitbox, she carries over some of the cancel advantage.
f.2xxferra toss 4 is a true block string, for example.


b.f.2 (bowl girl) can be anywhere from -6 to +24 depending on when the opponent blocks the slide.
d.b.2 (ferra toss) can be anywhere from +6 to +11 depending on what you cancel into it with.
b.f.4 (boss toss) is anywhere from -2 to +5, with one exception where hitting it on an opponent standing up at the very end of her arc makes it like +9

These are the special/meaty situations frame data but if you are just doing something like B121 xx Ferra tosses the overhead is like plus 5 or 6, bowl girl minus 6 or 7, and boss toss -4 or 5ish right?

 

[Doombawkz]

I'm not sure I understand how exactly that works. What I always thought is that more range you have between you and your opponent -> more time it takes Ferra to travel before hitbox collision -> blockstun is inflicted later, -> opponent comes out of blockstun later -> more block advantage.
I was pretty sure that blocked f2 into described followup may have different advantage depending on range from which you attack. Considering that f2 has relatively long range and doesn't move you forward, it may leave you at larger distance ensuring that ferra will connect later for more advantage...

Also I don't quite think that this is exclusive to projectiles, same goes to attacks with several active frames. For example, Raiden's shocker is notoriously unsafe against 6f reversals if cancelled out of string that doesn't provide enough pushback (I guess; I don't remember exactly which one).

This is how I though it works.

Also it's a shame that things like these numerical titbits are left to inhabit obscure corners of discussion threads, never getting to see the light of OP and are hard to find later.

More range doesn't always mean more advantage.

As you can see, even point blank Torr still has the frame advantage to recover from bowl girl on block and fire off a d.3 (which is like 12 or 13 frames) and trade evenly with Cassie's 6 frame reversal.
You are right about animation advantages, though, just its not range dependant every time.

As far as that goes, the best way I can explain is that Ferra just operates somewhat seperate of Torr.

As far as range goes, it doesn't differ much between point blank and max range, only about 1-2 frames.

Just to put it in a frame of reference, set the opponent to pushblock on reversal.
Stand just out of reach and hit them with a ferra move (sweep is the easiest to example with)
Watch what happens.

Ferra herself is a seperate hitbox from Torr. If her and his hitboxes are in the same area then they both are hit, however Ferra basically acts as a second body for all intents in purposes. A body that doesn't take damage.
This is why she can eat projectiles that have collision boxes (i.e. not bullets). Because the game reads her hitbox as something that satisfies the "hit" requirement, she can soak it. She just doesn't take damage.

I could go in but this gets into very complicated stuff. I don't wanna just force it out there if what I've said thusfar will suffice.

 

[Doombawkz]

These are the special/meaty situations frame data but if you are just doing something like B121 xx Ferra tosses the overhead is like plus 5 or 6, bowl girl minus 6 or 7, and boss toss -4 or 5ish right?

b.121xx ferra toss isn't a true blockstring, soooo...

 

[Wetdoba]

b.121xx ferra toss isn't a true blockstring, soooo...

yeah but its still plus

 

[Doombawkz]

yeah but its still plus

If you manage to have the opponent block it, then yes it is +6

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

or they don'r armour through it.

 

[Barrogh]

Bots never try to reversal / jump out of b121~toss though... So, is training mode fucked again? I sooo hoped we've left that in 2011...

More range doesn't always mean more advantage.

As you can see, even point blank Torr still has the frame advantage to recover from bowl girl on block and fire off a d.3 (which is like 12 or 13 frames) and trade evenly with Cassie's 6 frame reversal.
You are right about animation advantages, though, just its not range dependant every time.

As far as that goes, the best way I can explain is that Ferra just operates somewhat seperate of Torr.

As far as range goes, it doesn't differ much between point blank and max range, only about 1-2 frames.

Just to put it in a frame of reference, set the opponent to pushblock on reversal.
Stand just out of reach and hit them with a ferra move (sweep is the easiest to example with)
Watch what happens.

Ferra herself is a seperate hitbox from Torr. If her and his hitboxes are in the same area then they both are hit, however Ferra basically acts as a second body for all intents in purposes. A body that doesn't take damage.
This is why she can eat projectiles that have collision boxes (i.e. not bullets). Because the game reads her hitbox as something that satisfies the "hit" requirement, she can soak it. She just doesn't take damage.

I could go in but this gets into very complicated stuff. I don't wanna just force it out there if what I've said thusfar will suffice.

Ugh... I feel it can be explained much easier (like... literally everything in the game is "separate body for all intents and purposes except when they are not"), but it seems that Torr indeed receives some feedback from Ferra and comes out of animation earlier or later depending on what happens to her. Well then, experimental data it is...

 

[Trauma_and_Pain]

Bots never try to reversal / jump out of b121~toss though...

Yeah they do. If you set block to Always or Standing and then given them a 6 or 7 frame reversal they will attempt it during the gap and get punished. Set their reversal to an armored version of the same move and they will beat you e.g. Hat Spin.

 

[Doombawkz]

Bots never try to reversal / jump out of b121~toss though... So, is training mode fucked again? I sooo hoped we've left that in 2011...



Ugh... I feel it can be explained much easier (like... literally everything in the game is "separate body for all intents and purposes except when they are not"), but it seems that Torr indeed receives some feedback from Ferra and comes out of animation earlier or later depending on what happens to her. Well then, experimental data it is...

Add also if Ferra touches the blocker when they attempt to push out, they will be forced into a reversal X-Ray instead ala Bane's d.1 being unpushable because it scoots him out of pushblock range

 

[Barrogh]

So indeed, they do. Cassie's backflip and the like gets stuffed unless armored though.

For future reference: jumping bot doesn't jump out of shorter windows, something I didn't know.

 

[SaltShaker]

@Doombawkz what are Pain and Gain cancels on block? Are any plus like Johnny pressure or negative but useful like HW Jax? Are they worth it as a block pressure option? If so on what strings?

 

[MadeFromMetal]

@Doombawkz what are Pain and Gain cancels on block? Are any plus like Johnny pressure or negative but useful like HW Jax? Are they worth it as a block pressure option? If so on what strings?

F2pngc ~ +16

4pngc ~ +11

B3pngc ~ +7

B12pngc ~ +2

11pngc ~ +2

B121pngc ~ neutral

The rest are minus, I believe.

 

[SaltShaker]

F2pngc ~ +16

4pngc ~ +11

B3pngc ~ +10

B12pngc ~ +2

11pngc ~ +2

B121pngc ~ neutral

The rest are minus, I believe.

I didn't expect that. This explains a lot lol. Thanks!

 

[MadeFromMetal]

I didn't expect that. This explains a lot lol. Thanks!

No problem. What does it explain?

 

[SaltShaker]

No problem. What does it explain?

I got blown up this weekend playing this MU and felt like I couldn't push buttons or even armor a couple of times after it. I was practicing a few things with him seeing what I did wrong and saw his cancels were frame trapping very heavily after a couple of strings. But since I don't know the character too well I didn't know which was what lol.

Looking at this on paper he seems like he's really good, but I always hear/read how bad he is. What the hell? Something is up lol.