Breakthrough THANK YOU, NRS!

[Doombawkz]

Use less b.2 and use some b.1. We have normal damage on our grabs now and the advantage is too much to not abuse.

 

[chief713]

If they removed the debuff without changing anything else, I don't think it'd be OP. He'd still have the same problems, it'd just be a more extreme of what we have now: basically, he'd be able to stay alive longer and deal more damage more often. Those things don't change matchups and how they're played but rather allow us to play with a margin of error that we simply don't have now.

EDIT: big_aug You're right about that; it's when you can't get good punishes on people that are throwing highly unsafe things at you that you start to lament how bad the range is on his normals. I don't think speed is the problem. Like you said, venom DP stops pressure strings in their tracks.

 

[RYX]

Why should a trait on a D tier character have punishment for using it when characters like my main can extend combos, chip out, prevent rushdown and break armour with a simple 10f recovery frame data?

Negative effects on venom don't make sense, if he could actually use it fearlessly you'd see his normals wouldn't need speed buffs because he'd be able to freely armour with no consequences. And not like his armour gives him combos, it gives him setups. Basic setups that almost every single grapple character in 99% of games enjoys.

He has the potential to take half your life in a single BnB at the apex of his Venom. It lasts for 18 seconds which is 18 seconds of armor, setups, and carry. We're not even going into 50/50s, grab setups or environment use(which he does more damage on BTW). Not to mention you can combo away even his worst debuff in one go and head RIGHT into it again.

Really, you shouldn't be going past level one to get in. And then you get in and now you can fuck people up for free with a button that's instant armor.

If he had no drawback then Venom levels one to two would be useless besides the extra time. I don't think he needs that, he needs his moves to make sense. I don't think removing Venom debuffs entirely would make him truly solid when he has obvious flaws in his game play that characters who beat him can take advantage of.

Venom's an interesting mechanic in it's own right and as it is it's great. Again, the rest of his moves need mild tweaks and he'll rise. I also firmly believe he's being underestimated right now.

 

[big_aug]

He's definitely underestimated right now.

What character can beat him inside with Venom up?

 

[RYX]

He's definitely underestimated right now.

What character can beat him inside with Venom up?

Superman if his trait is up.

Batman, Joker and KF can try to parry but lows will fuck them up,

I don't think many characters are fast enough to beat out his armor though. This + insane dashing really does help more than people are selling it. I think he's mid tier personally.

 

[LEGI0N47]

If you block a string, hit them with a venom double punch. If they tried to continue pressure, they are getting blown up. If they block, hit them with another venom double punch. And then another. And then a body press. You will condition them. They can't poke you out of specials. Double punch is 16 frames and has armor. How many characters can hit you twice before you hit them? I think Flash has done it before. Maybe Raven too. But they have to be right on to do it.

From what I've seen my opponents do, playing against Bane is a huge guessing game. You can't just try to hit him because he armors through everything. You have to predict what's coming and counter that specific thing.

I was speaking purely no armor, just normals. Plus tbh that's me being hungry for a big combo instead of just plowing through with armor. And yes i've been poked out of specials before even with venom as it's only 1 hit, but only by Flash, Nightwing and Batman and it's only happened a handful of times. I doubt they could do that on reaction, especially on-line, it just worked out that way.

 

[HardlyWalken]

Bane needs slightly better normals, I agree with that, but until we get them big_aug is right. Get them conditioned and you can get away with a lot of stuff. Trying to do naked b23 combo-starters at the beginning of the match is probably a not the optimal strategy right now. Eventually I hope his standing 1 and b1 starters come out a tad faster, because I get beat on them a lot. A LOT.

Also thinking that Venom should have even less of a reduction to it's cooldown is crazy. You can do a 54% super and not pay very much for it - like Superman's overpowered super, this is a huge threat that you can use to bully your opponent. You can do all kinds of stuff now that you would be very scared to do before. I don't think he's quite there yet - I really wish the charge could be cancelled and the normals were a tad better - but he's getting there.

 

[Error]

It's a joke.

He did good.

Don't worry, we all get bullied by the unfunny police sometimes.

 

[DuskAlloy]

Don't worry, we all get bullied by the unfunny police sometimes.

I don't

 

[chief713]

A lot characters can get 50% in a combo with a bar or two and have way more tools at their disposal than Bane. The nature of the grappler is to spend some life getting in, but once you do you wreck shit. IMO he has to spend too much life getting in for not enough wrecking of shit. lvl 1/2 venom makes his avg damage comparable to the rest of the cast. He doesn't get stupid until lvl 3 and I honestly don't think it lasts long enough to warrant a debuff. And if it does, decrease the duration.

The reason Bane doesn't do enough damage is because he takes too much. The risk/reward is fucked up and it's because the venom debuff is counterintuitive to how grapplers work. Grapplers have more health than everybody else because its harder to get in. And they do more damage because when/if they do get in, they have to make it count. Health is the same for everyone and Venom debuff does the exact opposite of what I described.

I don't think removing the debuff would break him more than it would make him actually a good character.

 

[Error]

I think all he needs now are some tweaks to his normals, and maybe different properties on MB Venom Uppercut and he'll be solid.

 

[HardlyWalken]

Chief I hear what you're saying but I don't think they're moving Bane toward being a grappler. He can get in a lot easier now. He's much closer to a rushdown hybrid character.

 

[LEGI0N47]

Chief I hear what you're saying but I don't think they're moving Bane toward being a grappler. He can get in a lot easier now. He's much closer to a rushdown hybrid character.

I think the best thing i've heard him refered to was as a Brawler. He is no grappler, his cmd grab chains to nothing. But he's most certainly not rushdown hybrid, those guys have some type of zoning. I like Brawler the most, it fits him.

 

[big_aug]

A lot characters can get 50% in a combo with a bar or two and have way more tools at their disposal than Bane. The nature of the grappler is to spend some life getting in, but once you do you wreck shit. IMO he has to spend too much life getting in for not enough wrecking of shit. lvl 1/2 venom makes his avg damage comparable to the rest of the cast. He doesn't get stupid until lvl 3 and I honestly don't think it lasts long enough to warrant a debuff. And if it does, decrease the duration.

The reason Bane doesn't do enough damage is because he takes too much. The risk/reward is fucked up and it's because the venom debuff is counterintuitive to how grapplers work. Grapplers have more health than everybody else because its harder to get in. And they do more damage because when/if they do get in, they have to make it count. Health is the same for everyone and Venom debuff does the exact opposite of what I described.

I don't think removing the debuff would break him more than it would make him actually a good character.

If you get one knockdown, shit can get crazy. EVERY time you knockdown the opponent, they have to make a choice.

When on the ground, the opponent has to guess between:

1) Double Punch - Stops jump and many wake ups; hits overhead
2) Command Grab - Stops blocks and many wakeups
3) Charge - stops jumps and back dash; stuffs many wakeups
4) B23 Starter - Low starter; beats some wakeups
5) A jump in - Overhead; leads to full combo; beats some wakeups; beats some b3/f3
6) Block - leads to full combo on most wakeups

It would be INSANE if his damage was higher. Command Grab MB is 32% at lvl 3 Venom. God forbid you did ANY damage on lvl 1 or 2 while you were working up to level 3. Guess wrong a couple times and your entire life bar is gone.

Most of this only applies when Venom is up because we have to armor through wake up attacks. That's why the changes to Venom are huge. We can basically be in that state close to 100% of the time now.

 

[AK colondivider]

Correct me if im wrong but this is nrs first attempt at a grappler?

 

[LEGI0N47]

Correct me if im wrong but this is nrs first attempt at a grappler?

That would be Grundy. Bane has 1 cmd grab that leads only to a knockdown, not a grappler.

 

[HardlyWalken]

I think the best thing i've heard him refered to was as a Brawler. He is no grappler, his cmd grab chains to nothing. But he's most certainly not rushdown hybrid, those guys have some type of zoning. I like Brawler the most, it fits him.

You know what? That's a pretty great classification. I like that.

 

[LEGI0N47]

You know what? That's a pretty great classification. I like that.

It is. I believe Doombawkz is the one who turned me on to that.

 

[Doombawkz]

Shucks lol. I'm on a date and you tagging me is pulling me away. Also post your dang venom techs from the private convo

 

[LEGI0N47]

Shucks lol. I'm on a date and you tagging me is pulling me away. Also post your dang venom techs from the private convo

That's a no no where you're at unless you "hey I gotta use the bathroom" lol. Anyway I did but not as detailed, perhaps I'll elaborate later. About to go blow up some people.

 

[chief713]

This is why I think there's a lotta confusion. Some of his stuff seems to be based around being a pure grappler, and some is based on him being a hybrid. It's like he's a hybrid of a hybrid. But with increasing his dash, it does seem they wanna go the more rushdown type. And aug, most characters in the game do comparable damage and have it easier against zoning (or can even do zoning of their own). By design, that's the damage Bane HAS to do to be effective. As such, I don't think it needs to be penalized.

Zangief is in the same state right now in SF. At the highest level, you have to play to perfection to get in and get damage against most chars. But you don't do that much and if you don't make that one knockdown count and end the match, if it's the likes of Seth, Akuma or Dhalsim, then you can put the controller down because you're going to lose. It's not that crucial (yet) for Bane, but keep in mind that the game is new and he's rare so most people don't know how to fight him in and out yet.

 

[PND_Mustard]

i really want to see some gameplay footage from some of you guys, it would really help for you to back your statements up.

 

[big_aug]

I'd love to play anyone good instead of randoms with just good records. I have no problems getting beat on.

i really want to see some gameplay footage from some of you guys, it would really help for you to back your statements up.

 

[Doombawkz]

i really want to see some gameplay footage from some of you guys, it would really help for you to back your statements up.

Not my fault you pay for what you could get for free.

 

[PND_Mustard]

Not my fault you pay for what you could get for free.

footage, gameplay, anything. it's alot easier to discuss tactics when we actually show each other we use what we talk about practically instead of just talking about it all the time.