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Match-up Discussion Qwark's Subzero matchup chart

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
sub and his players excell in patience, he will get the lead whenever he gets the lead, not like she can do anything about it, he doesnt have to be risky, just walk and duck accordingly.

didnt say anything about using ex slide on her frametraps or on reaction to anything, just saying that armours an option

the corner in this matchup is important and worth mentioning, youre telling me you dont account for rakas corner game in his matchups? subs strings start with 2, 9f but the second 2 comes out on the 11th frame i believe, hes still faster

what if mileena doesnt get the lifelead? at least subzero can slowly come in while not being risky, how will she come in when he can raise a wall anytime to beat most of her options and pretty much force her to play risky or die assuming the sub doesnt fuck up?

subzero doesnt have to take risks, just the lifelead, doesnt matter when it happens
She can approach you with sais.... since they are 0 on block, and blow up clones at that distance where you would clone her d4.

Like I said... at midscreen she can control what you do. You have to make reads to trade with sais.... she can roll them or tele-kick them on reaction. SZ HAS to get her to the corner. She is just a better character than he is everywhere else. She can literally no move when she has a life lead or toss sais off pattern. SZ has to READ her sais, she can react to his ice ball, and his clone.
I used to think he could just push her there... but its a ton of work.

Until you play a real kitana who just disrespects everything you can do.... you'll probably never agree that it is a 7-3. She can just do what she wants wherever.... with a life lead or not. f2,1 and d1 both go through clones when spaced properly. If she hits ONE combo.... you lost. She simply has all the tools to just kill SZ's entire game. She can jump around and bait clones and air fan.... she can jk into strings or a throw.... whatever. She always has three legit and safe options when she touches him. Not to mention the only time youll hit her...s he'll have breaker. Even when laming her out.... you have to work SO hard to not get hit. She just dominates him. Not to mention... keeping her in the corner burns your meter.

Ermac is a push pull match. I honestly think you played it perfectly against Metzo's. You weren't checking ducked fireballs with ice blast, but other than that... you were playing it perfectly. He can't outzone anyone really. He has to be careful with his pushes, fireballs....etc etc. I think he can jump more in this MU than most characters. He does take away 2,2,4~clone... but thats not TOO big of a deal.
Yeah Zaf thanks.... i was simply being brief. Ermac really is a poor mans kenshi. He plays in the same range... just not as safely. Doesn't force people to move to him. And his specials are punishable.

KL... idk what to tell you. Until you play a good one that basiccally makes you stand there and hope to god you block a dive kick or guess right on a teleport.... you'll never understand. Only true masters beat KL more than 3 times.

Shang... he just crushes SZ midscreen. Ice blast only trades if he throws it first. SS's hitbox is silly. Its like forcepush or a net. Sure you can jump it... but 9/10 times you won't. Shang builds hella meter period. And he probably won't break SZ's combo's... so he can extend his own. Even in the corner... he can protect himself better than 90% of the cast. When anyone can make SZ's corner game a guessing game.... its not a good MU for him. SZ has to make some godlike reads... whereas... once again... Shang can simply react to most of the stuff... and he will ALWAYS get 30 damage on a combo. :(

Now .... sure... i play online. I also think my online competition is just fine. I also have played some of the best players for these characters. I don't know what else to say. So I won't.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Because you can punish skulls with what...10%? i dont think thats enough to win a MU...
into untechable knockdown

no, because quan chi is limited and in the corner has no answer for anything sub does besides risky as hell ex teleports and desperate d3 ex runes as subs coming in + mediocre zoning and slow ass normals.

hes just lucky he gets a break off of subzero not being able to use the extra range of 22
 

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
and sub can slide skulls on reaction

uppercut can be baited for way more damage than the uppercut would do

how do you break a clone in the corner with skydrop? only thing i can think is jumping on top of it and skydropping but that'd get you punished hella + waste a bar you desperately need

only way quan builds meter in this mu is by throwing fullscreen skulls and after 212 clone to check sub, jump distance skulls are a possibility but theyre heavily punished if read, too risky.

when cornered, quan is dead, rune trap means he cant break either
About the uppercut... baiting is something every character can do. That's not a tool... Quan's uppercut is b/c it can force Sub to not stagger his 21 strings. I believe that was the point Dink was making.
 

STB Shujinkydink

Burning down in flames for kicks
into untechable knockdown

no, because quan chi is limited and in the corner has no answer for anything sub does besides risky as hell ex teleports and desperate d3 ex runes as subs coming in + mediocre zoning and slow ass normals.

hes just lucky he gets a break off of subzero not being able to use the extra range of 22
man I can punish your clones in the corner with ex runes. Thats a pretty big advantage if I do say so myself.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
I dont agree with Sub Zero beating Quan Chi. Ive always thought that was 5-5. STB CharlieMurphy STB Sgt Reed thoughts?
Honestly.... I don't think i'd ever lose to quan because of you.

Quan can do dick all about d4. on block... on hit. He also can't do anything about 212~clone.... and you simply can use 214 if need be. I feel like I can use EVERY option available in this MU. The only shitty thing is when Quan lands a risky trance or gets full screen. Even then... you can approach him like you would Cage or anyone else that can't really... keep him away.

Like I said.... without the fear of Rune trap... this mu would be horrid.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
She can approach you with sais.... since they are 0 on block, and blow up clones at that distance where you would clone her d4.

Like I said... at midscreen she can control what you do. You have to make reads to trade with sais.... she can roll them or tele-kick them on reaction. SZ HAS to get her to the corner. She is just a better character than he is everywhere else. She can literally no move when she has a life lead or toss sais off pattern. SZ has to READ her sais, she can react to his ice ball, and his clone.
I used to think he could just push her there... but its a ton of work.


Ermac is a push pull match. I honestly think you played it perfectly against Metzo's. You weren't checking ducked fireballs with ice blast, but other than that... you were playing it perfectly. He can't outzone anyone really. He has to be careful with his pushes, fireballs....etc etc. I think he can jump more in this MU than most characters. He does take away 2,2,4~clone... but thats not TOO big of a deal.


Now .... sure... i play online. I also think my online competition is just fine. I also have played some of the best players for these characters. I don't know what else to say. So I won't.
you dont wanna trade with sais

approaching with sais ? how? unless that bitch can fly shes stopping to throw a sai, effectively wasting 3 seconds

why would you ever do something punishable vs mileena when you dont have to? all you have to do is simply walk her to the corner, not like shes gonna hurt you without taking a risk, so what she can react to iceball? youre NEVER trading with well time iasais anyways

ermacs fireball on on duck cant be checked, he can still kick your ass for it, i got a lucky break in the tournament and thats that.

careful with his pushes? what for? anyhting you do he can punish

224 clone is a big deal when he can chip you to death and you cant even reach him with your shitty ass 21 string
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Honestly.... I don't think i'd ever lose to quan because of you.

Quan can do dick all about d4. on block... on hit. He also can't do anything about 212~clone.... and you simply can use 214 if need be. I feel like I can use EVERY option available in this MU. The only shitty thing is when Quan lands a risky trance or gets full screen. Even then... you can approach him like you would Cage or anyone else that can't really... keep him away.

Like I said.... without the fear of Rune trap... this mu would be horrid.
214 is tranceable as well as 224
man I can punish your clones in the corner with ex runes. Thats a pretty big advantage if I do say so myself.
you mean you can punish 212 clone with mid ex rune?

that is a good thing, costly as it may be, wont help at all if sub isnt really down on hp though, you do a 12% and have a completely virtual +15 or so along with some space for a bar, quan chi not being able to break as well is a huge factor, sub doesnt even need his 222 setup against him because of no oki to fear except maybe close ex rune
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
To say Dink would throw away meter is an insult. Dinks entire style/character is all about smart meter management.
im saying it would be throwing away meter depending on the situation, im not saying he would throw away meter.
 

zaf

professor
Ermac maybe a poor mans kenshi but he has a teleport that can be used to counter fireballs.

He can crouch under fireballs and tkp punish.

I dont see a reason for randomly using tks. Or even random teleport for that reason.

Iafb is not punishable unless it whiffs.

Tkp at certain ranges is not punishable. So saying all his specials are punishable may be true on block but he is not kenshi in that respect, he doesnt use only his specials.

I dont think you understand how his zoning works. He doesn't need to be shooting anything out. You will always be blocking or dash blocking in on him. This makes his zoning effective without even using a move because of the fear of tkp alone.

Ermacs damage is also something to be afraid of.

Ermac only becomes punishable when you want to be risky. Not every tool is needed to win match ups. If tools work and are relatively safe, why even bring up his unsafe methods?
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
Ermac maybe a poor mans kenshi but he has a teleport that can be used to counter fireballs.

He can crouch under fireballs and tkp punish.

I dont see a reason for randomly using tks. Or even random teleport for that reason.

Iafb is not punishable unless it whiffs.

Tkp at certain ranges is not punishable. So saying all his specials are punishable may be true on block but he is not kenshi in that respect, he doesnt use only his specials.

I dont think you understand how his zoning works. He doesn't need to be shooting anything out. You will always be blocking or dash blocking in on him. This makes his zoning effective without even using a move because of the fear of tkp alone.

Ermacs damage is also something to be afraid of.

Ermac only becomes punishable when you want to be risky. Not every tool is needed to win match ups. If tools work and are relatively safe, why even bring up his unsafe methods?
I agree
but everytime you touch SZ you take a risk... or at the VERY least you reverse momentum of pressure.
I understand his zoning. Its why you hang out where he feels safe... and when he whifs you punish... You and I both know he isn't going to chip people out with his zoning.... its simply ways to add pesky damage on block... and catch people jumping.

I'm not trying to counter words you. Its an eb and flow mu... i dont' really think either has a leg up in any certain situation. Thats just me though. Maybe you know something i dont.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
We both made great arguments here. I think 5-5 is fair.
all i see is things that quan needs meter to counter and thats half doing it with him not gaining that much and risking himself while spending valuable bars, slow normals and non existant mixups are really bad

i still see it 6 4, subzero plays a lot more comfortably having a reliable fast normal, solid pokes and one of the best corner games

remember, 6 4 is slight disadvantage, very winnable.
 
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zaf

professor
I agree
but everytime you touch SZ you take a risk... or at the VERY least you reverse momentum of pressure.
I understand his zoning. Its why you hang out where he feels safe... and when he whifs you punish... You and I both know he isn't going to chip people out with his zoning.... its simply ways to add pesky damage on block... and catch people jumping.

I'm not trying to counter words you. Its an eb and flow mu... i dont' really think either has a leg up in any certain situation. Thats just me though. Maybe you know something i dont.
The goal isn't to touch him. Its to make sub make mistakes and punish them. Punish his spacing and his whiffs. Chip, a few tkps and a few grabs add up to a win. Im aware being too close is bad for him but the point is to stay away.

Also fireballs at certain range make tkp become a frame trap. So thats even more chip if both are blocked.

Sub can do 2-3 combos and ermac catches up with 1. Thats the biggest advantage.

A block string into a grab is never a bad choice either. After the throw ermac can do a fireball tkp frame trap again.

Timing out sub is also a valid way to beat him since ermac does more chip.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
The goal isn't to touch him. Its to make sub make mistakes and punish them. Punish his spacing and his whiffs. Chip, a few tkps and a few grabs add up to a win. Im aware being too close is bad for him but the point is to stay away.

Also fireballs at certain range make tkp become a frame trap. So thats even more chip if both are blocked.

Sub can do 2-3 combos and ermac catches up with 1. Thats the biggest advantage.

A block string into a grab is never a bad choice either. After the throw ermac can do a fireball tkp frame trap again.

Timing out sub is also a valid way to beat him since ermac does more chip.
Is the same space that fireball into tkp frame trap on block the same distance that ice ball will trade with tkp?
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
About the uppercut... baiting is something every character can do. That's not a tool... Quan's uppercut is b/c it can force Sub to not stagger his 21 strings. I believe that was the point Dink was making.
thats like saying every character can block a slide

uppercut is a tool

a punishable tool

its not matchup specific, but when its the answer to something then theres also a counter answer for it.
 

STB Shujinkydink

Burning down in flames for kicks
all i see is things that quan needs meter to counter and thats half doing it with him not gaining that much and risking himself while spending valuable bars, slow normals and non existant mixups are really bad

i still see it 6 4, subzero plays a lot more comfortably having a reliable fast normal, solid pokes and one of the best corner games

remember, 6 4 is slight disadvantage, very winnable.
I think you just dont have much exp in this MU
 

zaf

professor
Is the same space that fireball into tkp frame trap on block the same distance that ice ball will trade with tkp?
Uhh no, not really. Its most effective at complete full screen like freddy.

But you can do it before full screen is reached. Fireball will be blocked and tkp will catch sub zero start up animation. Iceball wont come out.

If this is done to close, sub will trade iceball with tkp... But then that is no longer a frame trap