Match-up Discussion Qwark's Subzero matchup chart

[ryublaze]

not sure if i should have put it 5 5

meterless scorpion is 5 5 but scorpion with meter is 6 4

mainly basing this on 224/214 clone being punishable by spear and 212 having a hole

Do you know for sure if 224/214 clone can be punished by spear? I mean sub's at -18 i believe and spear up close is 13 frames but there's also pushback. Does Scorpion have to spear on a read or can he react to the clone and spear? cuz if it's on a read it would be a 50/50 cuz Sub can just do 2,1,4.

GamerBlake90

 

[Qwark28]

Sonya beats sub 6-4. Kitana 7-3 too and mileena may have an edge as well. 7-3 KL

please explain why

kitana can go both ways regardng how bad it is.

kung lao can be punished depending on what he does, he does have an advantage but i dont think its as bad as kabal

 

[Qwark28]

Do you know for sure if 224/214 clone can be punished by spear? I mean sub's at -18 i believe and spear up close is 13 frames but there's also pushback. Does Scorpion have to spear on a read or can he react to the clone and spear? cuz if it's on a read it would be a 50/50 cuz Sub can just do 2,1,4.

GamerBlake90

Somberness mentioned in a previous thread that 224/214 clone are both 24 and 25 - respectively

its not a read I believe.

 

[GamerBlake90]

Do you know for sure if 224/214 clone can be punished by spear? I mean sub's at -18 i believe and spear up close is 13 frames but there's also pushback. Does Scorpion have to spear on a read or can he react to the clone and spear? cuz if it's on a read it would be a 50/50 cuz Sub can just do 2,1,4.

GamerBlake90

Yes, Scorpion can punish 2 1 4 Ice Clone on block with a Spear. 2 2 4 Clone...I don't know, never tried to punish that. I think that string has more block-stun than the first one.

As for Scorpion vs. Sub-Zero itself, I personally feel it's even. Cloning feels like a waste of time because of Scorpion's Hellfire, which forces you to stay on the move. I don't know, I've just played that match-up a lot and nothing about it felt one-sided to me...and I use both characters.

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

Exactly, that's my point, you sometimes will have to jump in order to counter it, that means you're not zoning and can be punished.

shang doesn't hit harder than sub without spending meter.

subzero gets 21% + guaranteed chip damage and meter off of every iceball

don't put words in my mouth, i never said freeze SS on reaction, i said jump it on a read, which can, of course, be punished. Same with iceball which beats GS

ice clone, timed right, ss doesnt hit, d3 barely doesnt, get too happy with that and you'll be frozen.

question, frame data on d3 to stand up? brady had told me its - but i really dont think it is.

you've played brady or denzell? I remember Brady saying its dead even.

I've played shang since almost release, not on your lvl, but I have a more than pretty good understanding of the game.

Brady had said that it could be in Shang's favor, and yes, I have played both. Shang may may not do as much damage without meter, but 1) Shang builds meter without much trouble (in almost all MUs) and 2) he can push Sub into the corner and set up his pressure without meter. The sub mirror really isn't that big of a deal imo, because he is pretty basic. Unless one of does something really stupid or risky, it is unlikely that either character will take damage (except for the damage that I took with SS).

 

[Qwark28]

Yes, Scorpion can punish 2 1 4 Ice Clone on block with a Spear. 2 2 4 Clone...I don't know, never tried to punish that. I think that string has more block-stun than the first one.

As for Scorpion vs. Sub-Zero itself, I personally feel it's even. Cloning feels like a waste of time because of Scorpion's Hellfire, which forces you to stay on the move. I don't know, I've just played that match-up a lot and nothing about it felt one-sided to me...and I use both characters.

its extremely even if it werent for the punishable strings that sub has, its a fun matchup to play but the frames somberness mentioned say different

 

[Qwark28]

Brady had said that it could be in Shang's favor, and yes, I have played both. Shang may may not do as much damage without meter, but 1) Shang builds meter without much trouble (in almost all MUs) and 2) he can push Sub into the corner and set up his pressure without meter. The sub mirror really isn't that big of a deal imo, because he is pretty basic. Unless one of does something really stupid or risky, it is unlikely that either character will take damage (except for the damage that I took with SS).

theres always the factor of the subzero main knowing the mirror better

good, thanks for the info

thats the point, he spends that meter to keep up with sub damage, you also have to account for the meter sub builds but cant use.

sub doesnt need meter to setup corner pressure either, he has much better setups and a less punishable and more lasting "wall"

how can he push sub in the corner when its subs turn to defend the lifelead? sub does have pretty good keepaway

 

[GamerBlake90]

its extremely even if it werent for the punishable strings that sub has, its a fun matchup to play but the frames somberness mentioned say different

Which is why mixing up the use of your strings is important. Scorpion can armor through 2 1 2, but if you continually switch between that and 2 1 4 at different patterns, you can prevent his interruption, get some damage, and put him back at zoning range. Again, though, trying to zone is pointless because of Scorpion's Hellfire fucking with your movement. Some may say it's not a big deal, but I say differently.

In my opinion, though, Scorpion doesn't really have a good corner game...certainly nothing like Sub-Zero's. Scorpion's best chance is staying midscreen. If Scorpion tries to EX Teleport out, Sub-Zero can duck the first part of the attack and punish with 2 2 freeze, then jump-over punch b1 2 1. EX Takedown is no better as it won't leave Scorpion at advantage. EX Spear, no explanation needed.

What also helps to keep this match-up even is that when Scorpion is up-close, you're playing a game of chance...the vortex, to be specific. Guess right, you get a combo; guess right, Scorpion gets a combo into ANOTHER guessing game.

As far as pokes and normals go, however, I feel Sub-Zero has an edge there. 9-frame standing 2 is faster than all of Scorpion's normals, and we've established that Scorpion's pokes are just horrid.

 

[Metzos]

theres always the factor of the subzero main knowing the mirror better

good, thanks for the info

thats the point, he spends that meter to keep up with sub damage, you also have to account for the meter sub builds but cant use.

sub doesnt need meter to setup corner pressure either, he has much better setups and a less punishable and more lasting "wall"

how can he push sub in the corner when its subs turn to defend the lifelead? sub does have pretty good keepaway

Shang's combos have pretty good wall carry. Also, pretty much, you push yourself into the corner when you do ice clone. Also SS has really good push back as well, plus its +f on block. Thats how i see it. Dunno if cowboy agrees.

 

[Knoterror]

6-4 vs Baraka
7-3 vs Cyber Sub-Zero

4-6 vs Cyrax - The corner is too much of a threat to Cyrax. He can't open his chest. Cyrax also needs to be careful midscreen. A smart Sub will know when to use Ice Beam and make it count, as well as set up clones he can EX Slide Cyrax into ON REACTION to nets.

3-7 vs Freddy Krueger
6-4 vs Jade
4-6 vs Jax

7-3 vs Johnny Cage - My personal, probably unpopular opinion. I'll do it. I'll be the first to call this a 7-3. Sub has the same options to get out of Cage pressure as any other decent character. Decent D3, Fast D4 as well as armor. The difference here is that Sub can keep Cage away almost as well as Kenshi. Cage can't do ANYTHING midscreen without a huge risk, meter burn or an amazing read. This is one match I don't even feel the need to corner push.

4-6 vs Kabal - 2 is 9 frames and hits mid on Kabal. This is a big factor in this matchup. Kabal can be corner trapped. Kabal is taking a risk every time he throws out a saw or tries to dash cancel in for pressure midscreen.

8-2 vs Kano

2-8 vs Kenshi - I just can't agree with 9-1. Both players have to play really smart. You think because Kenshi can reflect that you can't throw Ice Balls? You think you can't Slide? What else are you going to do? Jump in? Oh, it's rough as all hell, no doubt... but braindead special-spamming Kenshi loses to a good Sub.

4-6 vs Kitana - I'm kind of on board with you here.

3-7 vs Kung Lao - I really didn't want to touch this one in the other thread, but seriously... the main reason is because Kung Lao jumps for free. If you don't respect that, it's over. You can't AA clone a jump on reaction. You can't even reliably 22 it. If you do, and Lao teleports at the same time, you're getting combo'd. Same goes for a read (possibly even reactionary) on an Ice Ball while you have a naked clone on screen.

5-5 vs Liu Kang - Even. Both players have to work pretty equally here. Liu can zone, but risks a possible Ice Ball trade. Liu has good pressure, but Sub has armor and a good corner game because of Liu's ginormous hitbox. Sub has to be on point with his corner game though.

6-4 vs Mileena - I want to say this is even or slightly in Mileena's favor, but I don't have enough experience here.

7-3 vs Nightwolf
4-6 vs Noob Saibot

5-5 vs Quan Chi - From Shujinkydink's own mouth to me, in person. I think that should be good enough for anyone.

5-5 vs Raiden - If you're punishing teleports and keeping clones behind you, Sub can certainly hold his own.

6-4 vs Rain - I'll almost give you 5-5... But if Rain has no meter, he resorts to random lightning and teleports, and that's why he loses. He has nothing else to counter Sub midscreen. Rain can be a bitch to contain in the corner, but it's possible. You can bait him into burning his meter.

5-5 vs Reptile

5-5 vs Scorpion - Both characters have the tools to counter eachother. It's as simple as that. Every single thing one might do, the other has an answer for. Sub has better normals, but Scorpion has better mixups.

5-5 vs Sektor

4-6 vs Shang Tsung - Sub loses midscreen to Shang. Let me rephrase that. Sub loses midscreen to UNBREAKABLE DAMAGE from Shang. Have fun trying to trade Ice Balls. Sure, Shang's wakeups are ass but god help you if he reverses that situation with one of the lowest hitbox lowering D3's in the game. Shang's corner game is no fucking joke, and Sub has NOTHING reliable to get out of it.

7-3 vs Sheeva

3-7 vs Sindel - Maybe it's just me, but I have a hell of a time in this matchup. This is probably more in part to me not knowing her normals really so perhaps I shouldn't comment, but I've found that a good, purely zoning Sindel is quite enough to take this match and that tells me it's really bad.

3-7 vs Skarlet

4-6 vs Smoke - Discussed in other thread.


5-5 vs Sonya Blade
6-4 vs Stryker
4-6 vs Ermac

 

[Qwark28]

Shang's combos have pretty good wall carry. Also, pretty much, you push yourself into the corner when you do ice clone. Also SS has really good push back as well, plus its +f on block. Thats how i see it. Dunno if cowboy agrees.

those means can be blown up but fair enough

no, just because the clone pushes you back doesnt mean you cant stay your ground.

lets not forget who is better in the corner though or what ex slide does.

 

[Metzos]

those means can be blown up but fair enough

no, just because the clone pushes you back doesnt mean you cant stay your ground.

lets not forget who is better in the corner though or what ex slide does.

No i havent forgotten what EX slide does, but i havent also forgotten what happens if it gets blocked. It gets you killed.

 

[ryublaze]

Yes, Scorpion can punish 2 1 4 Ice Clone on block with a Spear. 2 2 4 Clone...I don't know, never tried to punish that. I think that string has more block-stun than the first one.

As for Scorpion vs. Sub-Zero itself, I personally feel it's even. Cloning feels like a waste of time because of Scorpion's Hellfire, which forces you to stay on the move. I don't know, I've just played that match-up a lot and nothing about it felt one-sided to me...and I use both characters.

I think it's even too. And if those strings really are punishable then I might play the MU differently then. Instead of going for b1,2,1 how about going for his NJP combo to push him closer to the corner?

 

[GamerBlake90]

I think it's even too. And if those strings really are punishable then I might play the MU differently then. Instead of going for b1,2,1 how about going for his NJP combo to push him closer to the corner?

That could also be viable, but I'd only go for it if you're within like 1/4 distance from the corner.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Sir you have O B V I O U S L Y not played a decent shang let alone a masterful one

this is pretty clear on all the numbers.

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

theres always the factor of the subzero main knowing the mirror better

good, thanks for the info

thats the point, he spends that meter to keep up with sub damage, you also have to account for the meter sub builds but cant use.

sub doesnt need meter to setup corner pressure either, he has much better setups and a less punishable and more lasting "wall"

how can he push sub in the corner when its subs turn to defend the lifelead? sub does have pretty good keepaway

Well as I've said, Sub needs to have a BIG life lead in order to play keepaway, otherwise Shang can chip him out. I also think that Sub can do very little when he is cornered. Pretty much the only thing he can do is take a risk with EX slide. I also think that Shang has more ways to mix up pressure when he has Sub in the corner (off of SS, GS, and US- there are MANY options). lol I think you overestimate the complexity of the Sub mirror.

 

[Qwark28]

knoterror

Cyrax= if brady hadnt deleted his videos youd see just how wrong you are, close bomb fucks shit up and all you can do is ex ice ball because regular doesnt give you enough time, meter youd need incase he reset you FOR YOUR FUCKING LIFE BAR. and he wont net behind a clone in the corner without a really good reason. sub has to play really careful and needs many reads to beat cyrax, he only needs one.

Quan= I play with Hidan every week.

Raiden= same case as cyrax regarding brady vids. they both thrive on a lifelead, raiden gets and keeps it easier.

Rain= depends on lead, rain will rarely be without meter with his rh cancels, he has good strings while youre limited to 212 + his huge damage.

Liu= same again on the brady vids. no, you cant trade when a good liu is doing iafbs. liu also has mixups in the corner on oki which you have to respect, ex slide is also dangerous.

Kenshi= sub has to rely on random slides and hope kenshi does something bad. a "special spamming kenshi" is not a good kenshi, a good special spamming kenshi is. you cant say that sub does well vs a dumb kenshi or dumbshi.

Kabal= kabal has almost no reason to get in for pressure midscreen unless you got a huge ass lead, he also wont walk into your 22 which btw, during ndc pressure, you gotta hit confirm. saw is exclusively used for mixups and slide, risk reward is hugely in kabals favor.

Cage= dude, hes cage, dont tell me that a bad d3 and a very risky d4 will get you out, he WILL chip you and he WILL get the lead. how is cage gonna do something risky or stupid midscreen?

Scorpion= sub does NOT have better normals.

 

[ryublaze]

That could also be viable, but I'd only go for it if you're within like 1/4 distance from the corner.

Also if Sub wants to do b1,2,1 into blockstring do you think it would best to just do 2,1, then D4? EX Spear goes over sub if he D4s and D4 is 0 on block. Scorpion can D1 before the D4 comes out but again his pokes suck so Sub would just counterpoke with D4 again.

 

[1man3letters]

Qwark28 we've had plenty of discussion of the baraka/sub mu through psn so im sure ya know how/why i feel its even at this point, just as i know how/why you feel it adv sub

but on the mileena mu,personally worst i could ever seen that getting for mileena is 5-5.
yea shes fucked in the corner and all that but anywhere else on the screen i feel mileena controls the mu better than sub does

 

[Qwark28]

this is pretty clear on all the numbers.

please dont post if your post isnt going to contribute to the topic.

if you disagree, post why and how, otherwise shut up.

tired of repeating myself all day long.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

3-7 vs Kitana - She dictates the entire match. Not part of it.... all of it. Uncontainable.
3-7 vs Kung Lao - see Kitana
4-6 vs Mileena - d4~sai is a pain. only difference between her and Kitana... you can contain her
6-4 vs Quan Chi - If not for rune trap.... this would be even worse. Sz can d4 the absolute shit out of him. All sky drops die to f4.
5-5 vs Raiden - If you play lame... he beats you 7-3.... if you bully him and make him teleport in obvious places... its even.
6-4 vs Rain - The easiest character besides SZ to lame out.
5-5 vs Scorpion - no reason to ever clone.... 214 and 21 are all you need.
6-4 vs Shang Tsung - see Woundcowboy
6-4 vs Sheeva
4-6 vs Skarlet - if you know how to block, she's not as bad.
4-6 vs Smoke
4-6 vs Sonya Blade - She's more equiped to blow up SZ than Cage. Her armor and meter build giver her options
7-3 vs Stryker - Lets be honest.... stryker has 0 options.
5-5 vs Ermac - 312 doesn't all hit ... he's very limited up close. He is a poor mans Kenshi.

 

[Qwark28]

Qwark28 we've had plenty of discussion of the baraka/sub mu through psn so im sure ya know how/why i feel its even at this point, just as i know how/why you feel it adv sub

but on the mileena mu,personally worst i could ever seen that getting for mileena is 5-5.
yea shes fucked in the corner and all that but anywhere else on the screen i feel mileena controls the mu better than sub does

only reason im saying sub wins is because of meter management and not using decimals, in decimals IMO this is 5.5-4.5 but translates to 6 4 in the current number system.

 

[Qwark28]

Which is why mixing up the use of your strings is important. Scorpion can armor through 2 1 2, but if you continually switch between that and 2 1 4 at different patterns, you can prevent his interruption, get some damage, and put him back at zoning range. Again, though, trying to zone is pointless because of Scorpion's Hellfire fucking with your movement. Some may say it's not a big deal, but I say differently.

In my opinion, though, Scorpion doesn't really have a good corner game...certainly nothing like Sub-Zero's. Scorpion's best chance is staying midscreen. If Scorpion tries to EX Teleport out, Sub-Zero can duck the first part of the attack and punish with 2 2 freeze, then jump-over punch b1 2 1. EX Takedown is no better as it won't leave Scorpion at advantage. EX Spear, no explanation needed.

What also helps to keep this match-up even is that when Scorpion is up-close, you're playing a game of chance...the vortex, to be specific. Guess right, you get a combo; guess right, Scorpion gets a combo into ANOTHER guessing game.

As far as pokes and normals go, however, I feel Sub-Zero has an edge there. 9-frame standing 2 is faster than all of Scorpion's normals, and we've established that Scorpion's pokes are just horrid.

Agreed on everything.

but, its a risk subzero has to take, theres no rush for scorpion to ex spear from the moment he can cleanly spear you on reaction to your strings

 

[Espio]

please dont post if your post isnt going to contribute to the topic.

if you disagree, post why and how, otherwise shut up.

tired of repeating myself all day long.

Don't bother dude.

 

[Knoterror]

Did you just disagree with me on Sub having better normals than Scorpion... and then agree with GamerBlake when he said the same thing?