Match-up Discussion Qwark's Subzero matchup chart

[Qwark28]

3-7 vs Kitana - She dictates the entire match. Not part of it.... all of it. Uncontainable.
3-7 vs Kung Lao - see Kitana
4-6 vs Mileena - d4~sai is a pain. only difference between her and Kitana... you can contain her
6-4 vs Quan Chi - If not for rune trap.... this would be even worse. Sz can d4 the absolute shit out of him. All sky drops die to f4.
5-5 vs Raiden - If you play lame... he beats you 7-3.... if you bully him and make him teleport in obvious places... its even.
6-4 vs Rain - The easiest character besides SZ to lame out.
5-5 vs Scorpion - no reason to ever clone.... 214 and 21 are all you need.
6-4 vs Shang Tsung - see Woundcowboy
6-4 vs Sheeva
4-6 vs Skarlet - if you know how to block, she's not as bad.
4-6 vs Smoke
4-6 vs Sonya Blade - She's more equiped to blow up SZ than Cage. Her armor and meter build giver her options
7-3 vs Stryker - Lets be honest.... stryker has 0 options.
5-5 vs Ermac - 312 doesn't all hit ... he's very limited up close. He is a poor mans Kenshi.

@lord of the fly
RedRaptor10
Metzos
zaf
Espio
explain matchups

SONYA

her armour and meter give her options up close, what meter build exactly except when shes in?

Mileena

D4 sai... clone.

Raiden

read the reply to knoterror

KL

read my previous mu analysis thread

21? 214? please read previous posts.

also, im finding it hard to accept arguements from someone who was repeatedly told why the ermac MU isnt even while screaming theory fighting considering i play the matchup every week, then proceed to go on with ONLINE experience, the land of bullshit.

 

[1man3letters]

only reason im saying sub wins is because of meter management and not using decimals, in decimals IMO this is 5.5-4.5 but translates to 6 4 in the current number system.

sub has a adv because of meter management? i dont follow.
besides when sub has mileena in the corner, when do u feel he has a adv in the mu?
personally i feel the foursome of sai/iasai/roll/tele plays counter pretty well to his options and that 2 doesnt hit her either.
i dont use d4 as much in that mu cause of the chance of clone

 

[Qwark28]

Did you just disagree with me on Sub having better normals than Scorpion... and then agree with GamerBlake when he said the same thing?

read past the "agreed to everything" part

theres a but.

i agreed with his 2 being faster.

 

[Espio]

In my opinion:

Stryker versus Sub is 4-6 Sub wins
Jade versus Sub is either 5-5 or 4-6 Sub wins.

 

[Qwark28]

sub has a adv because of meter management? i dont follow.
besides when sub has mileena in the corner, when do u feel he has a adv in the mu?
personally i feel the foursome of sai/iasai/roll/tele plays counter pretty well to his options and that 2 doesnt hit her either.
i dont use d4 as much in that mu cause of the chance of clone

we talked about this before, baraka needs to have better meter management otherwise he cant cope with sub

+ sub can better keepaway and can build meter while doing so if baraka is meterless, thats what i mean

about mileena, she has no way to get in without taking risks, she outzones sub but can't really damage him without being risky about it, its all about the lifelead, sub keeps it infinitely easier and the corner is where young mileena gets her sex ed.

 

[Qwark28]

No i havent forgotten what EX slide does, but i havent also forgotten what happens if it gets blocked. It gets you killed.

but you did forget that some situations grant a slide on reaction.

 

[Smarrgasm]

At this moment in time i have to say Rain sub is 5-5. I used to have it 6-4 in subs favor but recently ive figured out how to play it better. Sub can keep rain away with clone but rain has some of the best ways out of the corner of any character in the game. Up close it becomes rains game because you have to respect my pressure for the most part unless you choose to use meter to armor out. If you wanna just lame me out i can chip with lightning and if i read it hard enough ill start punishing clones with lightning if you get too predictable. Ice ball doesnt really trade favorably with lightning either so theres no positive for you there. IMO the risks are there for both characters and each gets part of their game taken away by the other.

 

[Espio]

@lord0fthefly
Metzos
zaf
Espio
SONYA

her armour and meter give her options up close, what meter build exactly except when shes in?

Mileena

D4 sai... clone.

Raiden

read the reply to knoterror

KL

read my previous mu analysis thread

21? 214? please read previous posts.

also, im finding it hard to accept arguements from someone who was repeatedly told why the ermac MU isnt even while screaming theory fighting considering i play the matchup every week, then proceed to go on with ONLINE experience, the land of bullshit.

Aside from ring zoning I'm not quite sure how she builds a good amount of meter full screen and those can be slid on reaction if Sub is in range.

I'm not a Sonya expert, but I feel like she builds meter best when she's up close, which is harder to do to Sub due to clone.


Again, not a Sonya expert so nobody blow me up, which seems to be the common theme of this thread lol.

 

[Knoterror]

At this moment in time i have to say Rain sub is 5-5. I used to have it 6-4 in subs favor but recently ive figured out how to play it better. Sub can keep rain away with clone but rain has some of the best ways out of the corner of any character in the game. Up close it becomes rains game because you have to respect my pressure for the most part unless you choose to use meter to armor out. If you wanna just lame me out i can chip with lightning and if i read it hard enough ill start punishing clones with lightning if you get too predictable. Ice ball doesnt really trade favorably with lightning either so theres no positive for you there. IMO the risks are there for both characters and each gets part of their game taken away by the other.

Honestly, Lightning is a huge huge risk. Anyone can dash jump punish a whiffed lighting from 3/4 screen. Though I'm sure you know that.

 

[Qwark28]

Aside from ring zoning I'm not quite sure how she builds a good amount of meter full screen and those can be slid on reaction if Sub is in range.

I'm not a Sonya expert, but I feel like she builds meter best when she's up close, which is harder to do to Sub due to clone.


Again, not a Sonya expert so nobody blow me up, which seems to be the common theme of this thread lol.

mainly wanted you to explain to him the stryker MU considering your advanced expertise

 

[Qwark28]

Honestly, Lightning is a huge huge risk. Anyone can dash jump punish a whiffed lighting from 3/4 screen.

Antiair for over 40%.

jump punished for whiffing while you make a read and jump.

 

[Knoterror]

Antiair for over 40%.

jump punished for whiffing while you make a read and jump.

Are you kidding? You don't land on top of Rain trying to read a Lighting. From 3/4 screen. You jump, if he did a lighting, dash and punish. If you didn't get a punish, you're still a good ways away from him. Whiff punsih AA attempt...

 

[Smarrgasm]

Honestly, Lightning is a huge huge risk. Anyone can dash jump punish a whiffed lighting from 3/4 screen. Though I'm sure you know that.

I am probably the most aware person in the community to this lol. Which is why against sub i am very cautious to try and throw it only on reaction to most things. I can trade with iceball on reaction if im not close enough to just jump and get in. Clones are where it gets tricky. I can get the free chip when i see the clone come out or i can guess and take the risk to try and punish it. Like i said it comes down to who can make a better read and that makes it pretty even.

 

[Smarrgasm]

Antiair for over 40%.

jump punished for whiffing while you make a read and jump.

Hes right. If you jump a lightning from 3/4 screen or less you are getting pressure at worst. Fast characters like cage are getting a full combo. Lightnings recovery on whiff is absolutely terrible.

 

[Qwark28]

Are you kidding? You don't land on top of Rain trying to read a Lighting. From 3/4 screen. You jump, if he did a lighting, dash and punish. If you didn't get a punish, you're still a good ways away from him. Whiff punsih AA attempt...

say hello to b2 1+2

 

[Qwark28]

Hes right. If you jump a lightning from 3/4 screen or less you are getting pressure at worst. Fast characters like cage are getting a full combo.

no, hes right if you do a lightning, hes wrong about the consequences of you NOT doing one and him just jumping in front of you giving you an easy whiff punish

phrased my earlier post badly knoterror

 

[Smarrgasm]

no, hes right if you do a lightning, hes wrong about the consequences of you NOT doing one and him just jumping in front of you giving you an easy whiff punish

phrased my earlier post badly knoterror

At 3/4 screen its going to be hard for me to do anything about that. Also if he notices me not throwing that lightning all it takes is a simple air clone to set him back farther from me and be safe.

 

[Espio]

mainly wanted you to explain to him the stryker MU considering your advanced expertise

I have explained it before on skype and in these threads at least four separate times total combined to Charlie. I'm not going to change his mind.

 

[Qwark28]

At 3/4 screen its going to be hard for me to do anything about that. Also if he notices me not throwing that lightning all it takes is a simple air clone to set him back farther from me and be safe.

trust me, it sounds hard, its not, Hidan has a very good rain and does it to me all the time, b2 1+2 is a godlike whiff punisher

by the time he does a clone proximity will trigger

been there, done that, unfortunately

 

[ryublaze]

I think most of the Skarlet community agrees with sub vs. skarlet 3-7 skarlet favor but I'm not one to give definitive MU numbers. I think Brady once said it was 2-8. My thoughts are that Skarlet with meter can blow up ice balls and without meter she can teleport them and build meter quickly with iaD. Sub's D4 can be whiffed punished up close by iaDD and farther away by red slide. Skarlet up close pressure is good vs. Sub cuz she can EX Dagger into cross-over and (correct me if I'm wrong) I believe you can only D1 AA or armor out cuz of the advantage given off of blocked EX Dagger and Sub's D1 sucks. The only time Sub has an advantage is probably in the corner when Skarlet has no meter. Most losses I get are from me making silly mistakes (red sliding into clone, jumping too high for iaDD, overuse of grounded daggers).

L0rdoftheFLY Ninj Eddy Wang Mosp Johnny2d AssassiN[be] Laos_boy @other Skarlet users

 

[Smarrgasm]

trust me, it sounds hard, its not, Hidan has a very good rain and does it to me all the time, b2 1+2 is a godlike whiff punisher

by the time he does a clone proximity will trigger

been there, done that, unfortunately

That would have to be at sweep distance. And at that point you shouldnt be trying to jump at me on a lightning read nor should i be thinking about throwing one. B2 1+2 is my favorite string in the game but at the distance im talking about it will not catch sub.

Here is a set between me and cyus and i think it showcases just about everything i can say about the MU. I play well for the first match and then he figures things out to keep me in check in the corner. All in all this was a pretty close set except for the end. In the first match i space every lightning at a safe distance. And i am patient getting out of the corner. Cyus then gets it together in the last two games by keeping me in check.
@4:33 is a PERFECT example of what im talking about. He read the lighning at 3/4 screen and jumped. I attempted to use B23 to keep him out of the air/ hit him as he lands and he air clones to stay away. He does it again at 5:04 and i run straight into a clone.

 

[Qwark28]

That would have to be at sweep distance. And at that point you shouldnt be trying to jump at me on a lightning read nor should i be thinking about throwing one. B2 1+2 is my favorite string in the game but at the distance im talking about it will not catch sub.

Here is a set between me and cyus and i think it showcases just about everything i can say about the MU. I play well for the first match and then he figures things out to keep me in check in the corner. All in all this was a pretty close set except for the end. In the first match i space every lightning at a safe distance. And i am patient getting out of the corner. Cyus then gets it together in the last two games by keeping me in check.
@4:33 is a PERFECT example of what im talking about. He read the lighning at 3/4 screen and jumped. I attempted to use B23 to keep him out of the air/ hit him as he lands and he air clones to stay away.

dash in, you wont punish the jump with b2 if he jumps from 3/4, if you dash as hes in the air you get the whiff punish and activate proximity

try it in training mode

 

[Smarrgasm]

dash in, you wont punish the jump with b2 if he jumps from 3/4, if you dash as hes in the air you get the whiff punish and activate proximity

try it in training mode

Ill have to try it more cause i dont think its possible to catch him that easily and still take away the air clone but ill definitely look into it.

 

[Knoterror]

Sub can also punish a spaced B21+2 with 22 AS its happening. 22 takes priority. Sub doesn't need to block it or risk trying to jump it.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

trust me, it sounds hard, its not, Hidan has a very good rain and does it to me all the time, b2 1+2 is a godlike whiff punisher

by the time he does a clone proximity will trigger

been there, done that, unfortunately

Smarrs rain is years.... YEARS ahead of hidan