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Dealing With the Runaway Problem, and Growing Our Sport

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
As i said before. I understand that it can be frustrating. Hwever, we cannot close off the ability to share information from any player. That breeds ignorance. Yor setting up scenarios where player a cannot be taken seriously until they win a tournament...unless of course they are in with the pros. Why is it so hard for everyone to just discuss the tech without it getting personal?

Matchups are a different story. 2 different issues. Matchups are something that ithink we can all agree the players that play at the highest level should be deciding. Tech on the other hand not so much.

TakeAChance on tapatalk
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
As i said before. I understand that it can be frustrating. Hwever, we cannot close off the ability to share information from any player. That breeds ignorance. Yor setting up scenarios where player a cannot be taken seriously until they win a tournament...unless of course they are in with the pros.
I'm trying to impress on you the difference between 'sharing information' and telling top players they are definitively wrong with no solid real-world proof to back it up. 2 completely diff. things.
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
Dude, if i tell pig he is wrong on kenshi tech, and he is going out amd placing top 8 with him, why would he get upset? He would be taking it personally. Thats what i said above. There is no need for that kind of bickering. Most of those cases could be solved with a simple "cool dude, thanks for the input". Instead it turns into 5 pages of bickering. Sorry for the spelling. I am typing on a tablet.

TakeAChance on tapatalk
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
Here are two examples to kind of help see the difference between good and bad "tech".

Here's Mayo's thread on Kenshi's options regarding switching his position and max NJP combos

http://testyourmight.com/threads/ultimate-kenshi-pt-5-advanced-position-reversals.26629/

This is very good stuff, since reversing position is an important aspect of fighting games so this can pay dividends depending on whether or not you need to fight your way out of the corner and do so by putting the opponent back there. NJP's come up every now and then and maximizing that damage is great too. I personally have used this stuff in my game and its done wonders.

On the flipside

http://testyourmight.com/threads/kung-lao-hat-abuse.27595/

This is UsedForGlue's thread on who you can "abuse" Kung Lao's low hat against. Now, according to Glue, despite the fact that all of these chars can land a throw or typically some sort of normal after low hat, it isn't a "punish" because it doesn't do damage. This is ignoring the importance of losing position, having to get in again, etc. This is the kind of thread that I think could be potentially harmful because it's basically saying KL has "safe" low hate pressure when he doesn't really, and will lead to a "punish" in every sense of the word.

I'm not picking favorites or picking on any one person, these were the first two examples that came to mind.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
One thing about an established player sharing information is that you have to accept that there will be those type of players who will disagree with you. I think that would be something that would be easy to accept. And I think most of the established players do accept it. But, usually, the people who disagree do it in such a disrespectful manner and without evidence/experience that it discourages said established player from contributing. At the same time though, the same established players, even though they are well experienced and know a lot about the match-up, need to lower that wall of ego and allow someone to disagree with you without getting emotional about it.

The people who disagree with you in a constructive and respectful manner and provide evidence to back their statements, you shouldn't be upset with this and should want to engage in a healthy discussion. The people who disagree and are disrespectful, such as "you're wrong bro, level up", just ignore them and report the post. There's no need to respond to that kind of negativity even if it's coming from another well established player. It doesn't matter who is being disrespectful, treat them all the same.

Pig Of The Hut
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
Can we just say it...there is still a severe U.S. Euro hate thing going on. It also mirrors the same thing Pros vs Casuals face.

U.S. vs Euro = U.S. Players are the authority since all considered majors are held here. Europe has good players, but to the U.S. they are not proven and for the large part ignored/rebuked.

Pros Vs Casuals : The pros pay their dues by travelling all over the country/North America. They play what is considered the absolute highest competition. Casuals play over 5000 matches a year, but their experience is deemed inferior to those that play the top level players. Opinons of the casuals are often scrutinized/ rebuked.

Lets take your Low Hat thread for example.

In that case, UsedForGlue showed some tech that he thought was valuable. Perhaps it is valuable to him. Now, there is a correct and shitty way to handle that particular situation.

Shitty Way : That tech is completely punishable. You need to play players who know what they are doing. Players can poke or throw at anytime. Go back to the lab. This will get you completely blown up in high level play.

Good Way: Nice tech, I can see how this could work against some players. One thing to take not of tho. Some players will be able to poke or throw you out of it. Still, you could definitely use it until someone blows you up for it.


In both instances the same message is given. The tone of the shitty way is condescending and belittling. It provokes the need to defend. The good way acknowledges that you appreciate the tech, but also gives advice in a helpful way.

Now, If I was a Lao main who travelled to tournaments and read Used For Glues thread, I could answer it in this manner.

Shitty Way: This does not work. If I did this against Reo at my next tournament, I would lose. It's useless DO NOT DO THIS. I play the highest level possible and I can tell you that this will get you blown up.

Good Way: I haven't found a use for this particular tech yet in high level play, but I will keep it in mind. At this point I don't feel it fits my playstyle, but if you find success with it, thats great.

Once again, we should be modeling the type of behavior that promotes collaboration. That way, top players can be scene as guides, and the base group of casuals would feel comfortable contributing as much tech and knowledge as they could.
 

coolwhip

Master
I'm on this site for two reasons: Valuable information and comedy.

Honestly, M2Dave's threads crack me up. They are, for the most part, "harmless trolling." Everything he says is so tongue-in-cheek anyway and I really think his shtick is hilarious. Also, "whitest/blackest guy in the community" threads or "which 4 players would you pick for a zombie apocalypse" threads are comedy gold. As difficult as it is, there should be a balance between moderating harmful/annoying trolling and allowing funny trolling. I'm not sure that a rigid "no trolling" policy is the way to go. I understand that the line often gets blurry though. What puzzles me however, is the way some misinterpret certain threads and it goes downhill from there. For instance, many expressed displeasure/frustration at 16 Bit's "stock assessment" thread, when it was obviously an attempt at having a little fun. I see why some would see that calling a player "washed-up" is disrespectful, but it really shouldn't be viewed as such when it's obvious joking (ie calling Detroit washed-up).

Some trolling on the other hand, should not be allowed. Not to single anyone out, and I gave this example before, but REO harping on allowing Kabal's invincibility glitch was really unfortunate. It was at a time where TYM had just come back from its hiatus, activity on the forums was down, the future of the game was in doubt as MLG had yet to announce it for Dallas, and a rather embarrassing glitch surfaces. Now, in no way am I saying that the glitch shouldn't have been exposed, far from it. But vociferously asking for it to be allowed -- albeit jokingly -- should not be something a top player would do. As someone who's arguably the best player in the game, he should have been far more responsible in his approach (the same applies for REO participating on someone's behalf in an online tournament, or throwing tantrums because PL wouldn't play him in a money match). This is not an attempt to blow REO up, but merely trying to highlight a point. In that regard, I feel top players should be a bit more careful, because their attitude reflects on the game/community.

As far as valuable information goes, this is where top players' contributions become essential. Yeah, I know we don't "NEED" top players to post here in order to level up, but no one can deny that they have immensely helped many of us improve. REO himself has made so many videos for a huge number of characters, as did Tom for Sub-Zero. Foxy, Pig, J360 and others have also had huge contributions. Just watch Pig's stream and see how much new stuff you can learn. It's true that some valuable tech has been brought to light by players who don't get the chance to participate in tournaments, but when it comes to match-up discussions, I completely see why many of the tournament players feel slighted when their opinion is played down. Yes, "it's just a game," but when you spend so much money on traveling, participating in tournaments, etc.. it's understandable that you'd take the game seriously, and get a bit of a sense of entitlement. Disagreements are fine, but I believe players who have proven their worth should at least have their opinions respected accordingly. Let's keep in mind that false information can be harmful, and some random online player dropping "knowledge" can be counter-productive (I remember someone saying you can always twice uppercut Kung Lao's ex teleport without getting full combo punished. Yes, twice. It took a top player to settle the "debate," thankfully).

Let's keep in mind, EVO is coming up later this year. Typically, it's when top players are in full hardcore training mode that new tech is discovered, and different ways of playing match-ups surface. So yes, we need top players to contribute because they put more time in the game, practice it against top level competition, and play it competitively. It's a real shame there hasn't been much knowledge sharing lately. Just look at how quiet some of the character forums are (not all, mind you. The Cyrax and Skarlet communities are generally active, for example).

Hell, if I had one wish for this site, it's for a "match analysis" section to get created, where tournament videos are posted and the players who took part in the match go into detail about it, and explain what they were going for, how they approached it, their thought process, the mistakes they've made, etc...
 

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
Dude, if i tell pig he is wrong on kenshi tech, and he is going out amd placing top 8 with him, why would he get upset? He would be taking it personally. Thats what i said above. There is no need for that kind of bickering. Most of those cases could be solved with a simple "cool dude, thanks for the input". Instead it turns into 5 pages of bickering. Sorry for the spelling. I am typing on a tablet.

TakeAChance on tapatalk
but one thing id like to point out is Im on record of when i said standing 2 wasnt a good AA w kenshi that i was really wrong. My gripes are more about my example in few posts above in the player A + B scenarios.


But SC is always best in some MUs for multitude of reasons
 

rev0lver

Come On Die Young
16 Bit-This is where it gets twisted. So now it’s “he got exposed for trying to rig brackets”? He didn’t even try, the video “evidence” that we got is that he was strongly considering an offer dangled to him by a guy claiming he would rig brackets. He says he’s sorry, all contrite, and when he comes back he sees that the guy who SAID HE WAS GOING TO DO IT can openly joke about bracket rigging, where people still call him a piece of shit for putting the single modicum of thought in his head. Also ignored was Revolver’s talking point that STH was and has been rigging brackets for a while. How could you not be upset with the community for that enormous double standard?
Claude is having issues accessing his account right now so he asked me to post this for him:

To me this is a perfect example of why people don't want to post on this site. Pompous assholes like yourself talk out of your ass like you know what's going on when in fact you don't know anything. The reason why I can joke about it IS because it's a fucking joke. Nothing was rigged for 16 bit or anyone else for that matter. This could have all been worked out and cleared up in two seconds man to man but instead people want to pretend like there are huge conspiracies and cause drama for the drama's sake. I personally owned up to the fact that a few people saw some preliminary versions of the brackets and I gave my reasonings for showing it to people. In hindsight it was a mistake which I aplogized for. But the idea that I rigged the brackets is a joke and that's why I will always laugh at that stupid shit.
As far as swift tom hanks goes, that was blown way out of proportion too just like things usually do when you have shows dedicated to blowing things out of proportion. Honestly I feeled so honored that you think I actually have the power to rig the brackets of a huge event like NEC even though multiple people were in charge of it and had not only final say but full say over me and swift tom hanks. What i did for the most part was seperate regions, training partners, and try to think of hype matches. Did I joke around with 16 bit saying "oh i'm going to rig the shit out of the brackets!" yes of course I did. Just like i'm joking around about it now. Who gives a flying fuck the brackets were REALLY balanced and training partners were separated. And who won? REO again.
Ok I'll finally admit it. I RIG FOR REO. for now and forever. I Rig for REO.
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
It's real simple, son: the point was not that you did it and it's ridiculous that 16 Bit was blamed, the point was that NOTHING happened, neither of you did anything of merit to the brackets, BUT 16 Bit will continue catching shit for it where as when you joke about it it's fine. The joking about it is fine, that's not what I was pointing out. What I was pointing out was that the double standard is there that if 16 Bit still gets heat whereas you don't, when you're both in the same position. It's silly.
 

rev0lver

Come On Die Young
It's real simple, son: the point was not that you did it and it's ridiculous that 16 Bit was blamed, the point was that NOTHING happened, neither of you did anything of merit to the brackets, BUT 16 Bit will continue catching shit for it where as when you joke about it it's fine. The joking about it is fine, that's not what I was pointing out. What I was pointing out was that the double standard is there that if 16 Bit still gets heat whereas you don't, when you're both in the same position. It's silly.
Another message from Clawed:

I can't control what people think of 16 bit , myself, or anyone else for that matter. I think the whole thing is ridiculous and because of the way it was presented 16 bit is being crucified for it and myself. I got a LOT of shit for it, people demanding I be banned, etc. Also there are other adverse affects which I won't go into here but the point is there are members of this community who want NOTHING more than to see people brought down. I can understand why people like CD jr, pig or whoever it is.. don't want to be a part of this online community anymore.
 

GodsLonelyman

Kombatant
One of the major issues FG communities (Especially this one) have is how lots of the "top" players have a smug attitude. It's as if the rest of the community is supposed to put these players up on a pedestal and smell their farts because they happen to have way too much time on their hands to go to every tournament out there. Worshipping a dozen players, brown nosing them and agreeing with everything they say, and remaining silent for fear of being "exposed"because of saying the incorrect thing doesn't sound like a pleasant community. It drives people away. It's worse than a soap opera.
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
Another message from Clawed:

I can't control what people think of 16 bit , myself, or anyone else for that matter. I think the whole thing is ridiculous and because of the way it was presented 16 bit is being crucified for it and myself. I got a LOT of shit for it, people demanding I be banned, etc. Also there are other adverse affects which I won't go into here but the point is there are members of this community who want NOTHING more than to see people brought down. I can understand why people like CD jr, pig or whoever it is.. don't want to be a part of this online community anymore.
And I can 100% agree with you on that last bit. There are people who are like that in this very community who are driving people out, and it sucks. I would love for everyone to stick around but I also realize that the issue is that things, especially like the whole NEC thing, where hammed up by the people who would rather have their GOTCHA moment then competing.
 

Seapeople

This one's for you
Once again, we should be modeling the type of behavior that promotes collaboration. That way, top players can be scene as guides, and the base group of casuals would feel comfortable contributing as much tech and knowledge as they could.
I completely agree with this.
Sometimes the person who posted the tech and gets blown up also handles the situation poorly. A really obvious example is MuffinMuggers who refused to look at things from another person's perspective or take any criticism on his posts. There have been respected members of the community who have a similar attitude at times but don't get much heat for it.
 

rev0lver

Come On Die Young
KingHippo while we're kinda on this topic, I also want to say that the swift thing was blown out of proportion too. I got too carried away with it and didn't look for answers before I made accusations.

however, swift (and dark rob) is another good example of this stuff. these guys were completely blasted, even had death threats, because people in this community got too crazy.
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
If it was blown out of proportion it was blown out of proportion, and I'm willing to say no more on the subject. But yes you do bring up a good point about some others that felt slighted.
 

Invincibeast

Stay Free
Players leaving the site/community makes me sad, top or not. Hell, MK9 was my first fighting game I actually tried to get good in and I relied (and still do rely) on all of you to help me understand tech and terms. It makes a difference when top competitors can share information with others so we can learn, and that applies to any sport really, not just the FGC.
I hope all you guys come back when Injustice drops.
 

EGP Wonder_Chef

Official Quan Chi Nerf Demander™
One thing about an established player sharing information is that you have to accept that there will be those type of players who will disagree with you. I think that would be something that would be easy to accept. And I think most of the established players do accept it. But, usually, the people who disagree do it in such a disrespectful manner and without evidence/experience that it discourages said established player from contributing. At the same time though, the same established players, even though they are well experienced and know a lot about the match-up, need to lower that wall of ego and allow someone to disagree with you without getting emotional about it.

The people who disagree with you in a constructive and respectful manner and provide evidence to back their statements, you shouldn't be upset with this and should want to engage in a healthy discussion. The people who disagree and are disrespectful, such as "you're wrong bro, level up", just ignore them and report the post. There's no need to respond to that kind of negativity even if it's coming from another well established player. It doesn't matter who is being disrespectful, treat them all the same.

Pig Of The Hut
Juggs when did you start being right?

Agreeing with you feels so... wrong...