Dealing With the Runaway Problem, and Growing Our Sport

[Seapeople]

I think you are confusing arrogance with just being straight forward.
You sir are the same way.

Whether its arrogance or just being straight forward both can be a problem imo. I remember when I went to my first offline tourney I was able to talk to other players I've seen on the forum and have civilized conversations instead of it feeling like we're at each others throats.
I'd like to think people could talk to each other on the forum like they would offline.

 

[Son ov Timett]

TL;DR post: No matter how dumb this place can get, I would consider TYM a godsend compared to places like SRK

I think every TYM member should spend 5 mins on SRK, they would never bash this site again. Only worthwhile sub-forum is Tech (as in stick, monitors, hitboxes.) Peruse any front page article, half the comments are from people who display open animosity to anything that isn't the game they're dedicated to. Zero tolerance, zero respect, zero deodorant.

 

[SLy]

Whether its arrogance or just being straight forward both can be a problem imo. I remember when I went to my first offline tourney I was able to talk to other players I've seen on the forum and have civilized conversations instead of it feeling like we're at each others throats.
I'd like to think people could talk to each other on the forum like they would offline.

yea.. I do feel like since its on forum.. A players tone can be taken out of context sometimes. And then all it takes is that one person to stroll along and call it drama just for the hell of it. That usually sets a bad mood in discussions

 

[KingHippo]

Snip

First off, it's "prima-donna"

Secondly, I can’t speak for any of those players obviously, but as an observer, is it not that hard to see where they might be coming from?

Reo-I will never say he’s mature 100% of the time (Or even 50) but I will say that he was in the same position Pig was, where he was winning tournaments with a character and often times getting some flack for it. This is probably the one where I most agree with you though.

Pig-Again, I tend to agree, although he’s also spoke his peace anyways

16 Bit-This is where it gets twisted. So now it’s “he got exposed for trying to rig brackets”? He didn’t even try, the video “evidence” that we got is that he was strongly considering an offer dangled to him by a guy claiming he would rig brackets. He says he’s sorry, all contrite, and when he comes back he sees that the guy who SAID HE WAS GOING TO DO IT can openly joke about bracket rigging, where people still call him a piece of shit for putting the single modicum of thought in his head. Also ignored was Revolver’s talking point that STH was and has been rigging brackets for a while. How could you not be upset with the community for that enormous double standard?

Tom Brady-Another one where, again, I agree that a lot of the time some of his behavior is irrational, but I have to be on his side here. There is a system trying to be writ in stone that has some issues, VALID ones, that were brought up by Tom, myself, and a few other people here. But if you look back through any of those threads, it’s all just strong-arming, people telling us that we’re mad because we’re not higher up or whatever, blindly ignoring the arguments we put up. Again, infuriating, why would he stick around for that?

Again, these guys have all had issues that are ego based, but like Coolwhip said, EVERYONE has one, and it’s bound to clash with someone once in a while. Good; great even. But it’s hard to ignore these kinds of weird behaviors coming from dudes in threads.

Bit and Pig also brought up good points about how people (I won’t name names simply because there is too many to count) will take proven tourney tactics and call horseshit. Again, why stick around for dudes to discredit successful play?

Whether they admit it or not, there are many people on the forums who believe that the top guys have a responsibility to do anything but play at their very best, and that’s silly. I believe that it is this sentiment that made “the pros” realize that there’s no need to stick around so guys can say “Dance, monkey!” and then call foul when they don’t do it.

 

[TakeAChance]

Going to Pm.

 

[SLy]

I think every TYM member should spend 5 mins on SRK, they would never bash this site again. Only worthwhile sub-forum is Tech (as in stick, monitors, hitboxes.) Peruse any front page article, half the comments are from people who display open animosity to anything that isn't the game they're dedicated to. Zero tolerance, zero respect, zero deodorant.

I go to SRK for SFxT and the way things are organized is no way in hell touching the work of art they do here in TYM. You are right. We have more than enough info and people willing to explain what or how they do things. They don't have organized MU threads or anything like that.. Its just one MU thread will people just discuss problems with characters in random order in an unorganized fashion.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

My summation so far is this:

1) If a player who has a great record in good tournaments explains something about how to play their character, and you disagree, you better have a good reason to disagree. It doesn't mean that you *can't* disagree, because everyone is entitled to their own opinion; but if you're going to go on the forum and publicly blow them up and say they're wrong, your reason has to be better than "well I read the frame data and I'm guessing because I play this character randomly and I have online sets vs. muffinmuggers".

You should, at the very least, be able to point to another successful player that provides a counterexample. That's fine, because at least it's based in results. But if you aren't amazing at the character and you don't have valid counterexamples that are successful in tournament, shut your mouth and learn something.

2) Hype is constructive and competitve; drama is destructive. The difference is clear; don't push every bit of hype over the edge into personal drama.

3) People should know who to ignore. You have to be able to let some things roll off your back. You will face critics, haters, and fools in all areas of life, not just video games; so being able to shake it off and keep on going will benefit you in everything you do. It's just a solid life skill.

4) People shouldn't receive special treatment; but if someone that's put in the time and effort to become a master at something comes here to share what they've learned, and you want them to keep sharing, you should treat them with due respect.

(These people should also not abuse that respect by becoming a diva and crying a lot).

5) Mods are real people; you can talk to them. If you have an issue, message them, call them, Skype them, and talk it out in a reasonable manner. 'Reasonable' means that before you yell at them and blow them up, you state your issue, list the facts, and explain what bothers you. Once upon a time, before becoming a mod, I had a couple of my own threads closed; I felt it was unfair, I messaged mods, and they were reopnened.

Everyone makes mistakes; one mod doesn't speak for all mods. And overall, they're just trying to keep this a great place to relax and learn.

Together we're stronger.

 

[TakeAChance]

CrimsonShadow

Great post but post 1 and 4 are the biggest conflicting problem on this site.

If I put over a year into a character like Jade, and know a lot about the character, are my points and finds not valid since I am not going out and placing top 8 every tournament?

If Reo picks up Jade for 2 weeks and finds something he deems good, and I try to explain why it isn't, is that disrespectful?

Can Europe not post tech? What about Under The Mayo?

Most people on this site could be considered extremely knowledgeable in at least 1 character. The communication needs to be open both ways. There is no reason for a top player to shun a community member because they want to contribute something...likewise, there is no reason for a non top player to shit all over the other because they disagree. It goes both ways.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

If I put over a year into a character like Jade, and know a lot about the character, are my points and finds not valid since I am not going out and placing top 8 every tournament?

If Reo picks up Jade for 2 weeks and finds something he deems good, and I try to explain why it isn't, is that disrespectful?

Can Europe not post tech? What about Under The Mayo?

That's fair, and your experience is valid; but here's the point:

If you are going to argue with a Jade player who is consistently doing well (for a Jade player) in majors, then you'd want to actually try your ideas and opinions out in a serious settings against top players of other characters.

If you don't, then regardless of how good your theories are, there's a big chance that someone with top-level experience knows something that you dont -- something they've gained from actually trying things out in high-pressure situations in real tournaments. If stuff works, they'll probably keep doing it; and if it doesn't, they won't.

So like I said.. If you can't provide a real counterexample, you just have to accept the fact that you're theory fighting until proven otherwise.

It may be high-level theory fighting; but it's still theory and that should be ok.

 

[TakeAChance]

That's fair, and your experience is valid; but here's the point:

If you are going to argue with a Jade player who is consistently placing well in majors, then you'd want to actually try your ideas and opinions out in a serious settings against top players of other characters.

If you don't, then regardless of how good your theories are, there's a big chance that someone with experience knows something that you dont -- something they've gained from actually trying things out in high-pressure situations in real tournaments. If stuff works, they'll probably keep doing it; and if it doesn't, they won't.

So like I said.. If you can't provide a real counterexample, you just have to accept the fact that you're theory fighting until proven otherwise.

It may be high-level theory fighting; but it's still theory and that should be ok.

Sure, but there is a fundamental flaw with that perspective. It breeds ignorance, and it hampers creativity. It puts pressure on the players that only go to tournaments to find things out about the game. Why would anyone who finds something remotely good post about it if some ignorant person is going to come in and shit all over it.

That means that instead of looking at a playerbase of over a million players, you are only allowing about 150 players max the ability to contribute to the community. That's a big big big gap in available and frankly quite untapped knowledge.

What you are saying is guys like Mayo, Mcfly, Eddie Wang, Myself, and other people who cannot make the major circuit of tournaments should just not ever post anything. While I agree with 90 percent of what you are saying, I just can't fathom this community without some of their contributions. Add Doctrine Dark to that list.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Sure, but there is a fundamental flaw with that perspective. It breeds ignorance, and it hampers creativity. It puts pressure on the players that only go to tournaments to find things out about the game. Why would anyone who finds something remotely good post about it if some ignorant person is going to come in and shit all over it.

That means that instead of looking at a playerbase of over a million players, you are only allowing about 150 players max the ability to contribute to the community. That's a big big big gap in available and frankly quite untapped knowledge.

Nope, anyone can contribute. This isn't so much about contributing; the point is, if you're going to tell a successful player of a character that he's 100% wrong on something he's saying about the character, you better be able to back it up with results. If you can't, at least point to someone who can.

If you have neither, then the best way to 'contribute' your opposing view is to actually go to a tournament and beat people, to show that it works. Otherwise, just accept the fact that it's a theory and don't blow people up.

I've learned more about Baraka from watching TetraSpririt play than from reading any threads; simply because he shuts up, goes to tournament, and shows what works with his performance.

Theory is valid; but Proof > theory.

 

[TakeAChance]

Nope, anyone can contribute. This isn't so much about contributing; the point is, if you're going to tell a successful player of a character that he's 100% wrong on something he's sharing about the character, you better be able to back it up with results. If you can't, at least point to someone who can.

If you have neither, then the best way to 'contribute' your opposing view is to actually go to a tournament and beat people, to show that it works.

I've learned more about Baraka from watching TetraSpririt play than from reading any threads; simply because he shuts up, goes to tournament, and shows what works with his performance.

Proof > theory.

Right, but what I am saying is not everyone can go to those tournaments. They can't "Back it up" the way you want them to. That doesn't mean their contributions or opinions are less important. Tech is not about one upping anyone. There shouldn't be any but hurt around anything. If there is, that means it has already become too personal. Tech is something that should be discussed and incorporated when valid. As it stands, people have so much pride in their ability as players that there seems to be jealousy/reluctance to accept other peoples views when it comes to tech.

I can say this tho. What we are doing right now is productive. We are not insulting each other, we are simply discussing our views. I am not calling you out to a ft5 on stream or saying you are a terrible person. I will leave this conversation with the same level of respect I had for you when I entered it. This is how dialogue should be given and received...

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

Nope, anyone can contribute. This isn't so much about contributing; the point is, if you're going to tell a successful player of a character that he's 100% wrong on something he's sharing about the character, you better be able to back it up with results. If you can't, at least point to someone who can.

I disagree with this. Even if someone has the chance to prove that something works, it doesn't mean that they will be able to.

It is VERY hard to directly translate strategy into gameplay in fighting games. I have had a lot of ideas for strategies, combos, matchups, etc that I wasn't able to prove in actual gameplay just because I'm not as good of a player as I am a thinker.

Some of the best thinkers in this game haven't dominated at tournaments. Look at players like Teef for example, who I believe was one of the smartest tech people for MK9 ever.





If someone thinks that he knows better than a top player, he should just list out the reasons why he thinks what he does. At that point, the top player should either

A. Respond with his own reasoning on the subject

B. Say nothing




I mean you can't say that something doesn't work because nobody has used it in high level competitive play before. By that reasoning, no new strategies work because nobody has used them yet.

The point of this site is to discuss, so let's just discuss rather than immediately running to results.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Nope, anyone can contribute. This isn't so much about contributing; the point is, if you're going to tell a successful player of a character that he's 100% wrong on something he's saying about the character, you better be able to back it up with results. If you can't, at least point to someone who can.

If you have neither, then the best way to 'contribute' your opposing view is to actually go to a tournament and beat people, to show that it works. Otherwise, just accept the fact that it's a theory and don't blow people up.

I've learned more about Baraka from watching TetraSpririt play than from reading any threads; simply because he shuts up, goes to tournament, and shows what works with his performance.

Theory is valid; but Proof > theory.

No skarlett players are making top 8 recently, yet Eddy Wang continues to post valuable info, that NO ONE is doing at tournaments. That being said, it is viable, skarlett players know it is viable, but it isnt practical enough because of execution. That doesnt mean he should stop posting, if he did no skarlett player would make top 8.

You cant just watch Tetra and learn how to play Baraka. Yes MU experience is best done watching videos or playing offline, but you cant possibly know all his frame data just by watching or why he is doing what he is doing etc.

Now if Tetra says something, and I disagree with it, you know what happens? We agree to disagree and move on. He continues to do what he does in tourney, and I continue to do what I do. If what I do works for me but not for him, why would he use it(And vice versa)?


Instead of shooting down people from lesser scenes, try their techniques for yourself and see if they work for you. That is the underlying lesson here.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

STB TakeAChance

Wasn't "butthurt" or left the forums cause people are ignorant about me or kenshi ......I stated earlier I left cause posting anything worthwhile was quickly trolled or spit on

Also as far as foxy being the only one releasing new tech, I've gone down every character on my stream w tech for each. That's where I help others and teach stuff like how to AA w Freddy 3 ways and how kitana can walk backwards on Mileena frame traps and get a free 52%

 

[KingHippo]

I don't think anyone with good shit is being "shunned". I know I and many other Kenshi players use a lot of what Mayo has in his videos, same with quite a few other regular contributors.

The issue is when like people have big topics saying "I don't consider a throw a punish" and "I don't think Skarlett loses to anyone without two safe specials". Weird, wild and wacky sayings that just go way beyond any sort of logic that could possibly be used. It's really hard to look at things like that, see people actively agreeing, and not wonder whether something is amiss.

 

[TakeAChance]

STB TakeAChance

Wasn't "butthurt" or left the forums cause people are ignorant about me or kenshi ......I stated earlier I left cause posting anything worthwhile was quickly trolled or spit on

Also as far as foxy being the only one releasing new tech, I've gone down every character on my stream w tech for each. That's where I help others and teach stuff like how to AA w Freddy 3 ways and how kitana can walk backwards on Mileena frame traps and get a free 52%

That's awesome man. I didn't know that you did that on your stream. You should keep releasing that tech.

 

[GGA Saucy Jack]

Chance and crimson:

Great exchange. And i agree this is indees how it should go. The problem is...it doesnt. What seems to happen is:

Player 1: i found this tech. Check it out.
Player 2: youre bad bro. Ive been using this since release
Players 3-10: varying opinions on whether tech has been used before
Player 11: points out how something in the tech is actually new and useful
Player 2: continues to fight over naming rights
Player 1: decides not to share anymore
All players: miss out on good stuff

Now im not saying this ALWAYS happens, but we all know it has happened countless times. And it shouldnt. It seems no one knows how to actually talk to each other.

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

CrimsonShadow

Great post but post 1 and 4 are the biggest conflicting problem on this site.

If I put over a year into a character like Jade, and know a lot about the character, are my points and finds not valid since I am not going out and placing top 8 every tournament?

If Reo picks up Jade for 2 weeks and finds something he deems good, and I try to explain why it isn't, is that disrespectful?

Can Europe not post tech? What about Under The Mayo?

Most people on this site could be considered extremely knowledgeable in at least 1 character. The communication needs to be open both ways. There is no reason for a top player to shun a community member because they want to contribute something...likewise, there is no reason for a non top player to shit all over the other because they disagree. It goes both ways.

I understand what you are saying and agree to an extent. The problem is that most people have no possible way of backing up their arguments, and I am not referring to tournament attendance/performance. It is simply impossible for some players to have gained the MU experience necessary to theory fight. Please tell me who in Europe plays Shang Tsung at a high level? While everyone has a voice, I do think that more weight should be given to people who have extensive knowledge of their character and the matchup. These theory fighters get experience against sub par representatives of a character, often times online. You can't tell me that these people hold much credibility.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Wound yeah, the problem I see a lot is this:

Player A, sitting at home: "Here is this tech, for X character -- it works in the following situations". (This is fine; there's nothing wrong with contributing).
Player B: "I play against a lot of top players in serious tournaments; I tried that and it doesn't work well in practice for the following 4 reasons". <- This is based on actual experience, at a high level.
Player A: (Argues with player B for 5 pages, based on theory/speculation) <- Problem starts here.

Player C: Chimes in to agree with player A, because it 'sounds good to them based on theory and frame data'. <- Makes the situation worse. Competing in a real-life situation is about psychology, human tendencies, and risk/reward; not just frames and possibilities.

-or this-

Player B: "Here is tech for X character. It's been shown to work in a number of situations. I base this on my extensive tourney experience, training vs. top players, etc. <- This is based on real-world evidence.
Player A: "You're wrong; that doesn't work; any good player would blow you up if you used that; And I'm going to argue with you for 5 pages with no proof" <- Problem starts here.

I'm not a top-experienced player; but if I were, having stuff I say be drowned out by a chorus of people sitting at home speculating with their theories, that want to tell me I'm wrong, when clearly what I use works against the best players in the world, is going to irk me a bit. And it might make me feel like I'm wasting my time.

I just think that people should learn to accept the fact that their theories are in fact theory; and not be so hard-pressed to claim fact until proven.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

I understand what you are saying and agree to an extent. The problem is that most people have no possible way of backing up their arguments, and I am not referring to tournament attendance/performance. It is simply impossible for some players to have gained the MU experience necessary to theory fight. Please tell me who in Europe plays Shang Tsung at a high level? While everyone has a voice, I do think that more weight should be given to people who have extensive knowledge of their character and the matchup. These theory fighters get experience against sub par representatives of a character, often times online. You can't tell me that these people hold much credibility.

When I go to MVC forums Im listening to Chirs G and Chris G only - not the #1 theory fighter in Nova Scotia or Sri Lanka who could be potentially the best if able to attend evo or US majors or something comparable. Unless he's that random dude who won Final round with Logs in MVC

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Hey Guys can we also discuss this issue while we're at it?

Player A uses Kenshi (Ill use this character for example). Player A is very good player but maybe not the best, couple top8s couple of failures but maybe previously mained Lao, cyrax, Cage or Jax....he's more of an upper mid level player skill guy. So he plays the ONLY smoke player he can play in his country and believes the MU is 7-3 kenshi......No F*** it he KNOWS IT'S 7-3. So he takes that "info" and comes to the boards and swears it's 7-3 Kenshi against Smoke cause he has played the best smoke in his opinion (and of course if that SMOKE player ever came to america he'd blow us up) when in fact he's only played one smoke whose mid tier player at best and it's obvious to most.

So then you have Player B. Player B has played Kenshi for about a year and a half now (yea me in this example but again player A is no one in particular but theres a lot of this in a lot of people) and swears the MU is 5-5 cause he's played the world's best and most proven Smoke players there are. He HASNT played that random dude in the other country so PLAYER A tells PLAYER B to "level up bro it's 7-3, I know, I play a smoke player every day So level up bro"

This is a problem lol

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

LOL

Also, Pig Of The Hut waltzed in here, came on everybody's tits and left. Best thread i've read in over a week.

Dude im down for some cuddle afterwards , come on im not 100% an animal

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Something else I've been meaning to say: since real life doesn't fit exactly in to nice numbers, a matchup could be square in the middle between 5-5 and 6-4. It could be 6.39-3.61. There are a thousand possibilities. So to blow someone up over a 1 point difference is silly anyhow when it's not an exact science.. You could both be wrong.

In statistics they call it 'margin of error' and it's an accepted thing.

Hopefully we can mature beyond that a bit with Injustice. It'd be nice to spend less time arguing about the fine print and more time running sets.

 

[Faded Dreams V]

Something else I've been meaning to say: since real life doesn't fit exactly in to nice numbers, a matchup could be square in the middle between 5-5 and 6-4. It could be 6.39-3.61. There are a thousand possibilities.

...Don't give people ideas for new MU lists.