Match-up Discussion MIT's reptile MU chart

[Metzos]

Why is it still believed Reptile gets guaranteed pressure after a blocked max-range TKP???

Frame data is your friend, guys.

TKP is -17, dash has 20f duration on whiff...Reptile is -3.

Reptile doesn't lose from far away. Fireball is okay, but eventually you'll just let him get a forceball on screen if you think it'll keep Reptile in check, that or he'll smack your 55f duration time with an EX FFB. Reptile can keep up with Ermac here still. Teleport is baitable with EX forceball. JK air blast is worthwhile if Reptile has no meter, otherwise you risk running into EXFB charge, which is a combo into Reptile's oki, that Ermac has problems against. Ermac is best at dash whiff distance, since you can TKP with no fear to stuff anything he'll try to do (dash and TKP done at the same time at this range = Ermac hits), and it's in your advantage if he does come in, still. Neither of them have overwhelming pressure up close, as Ermac is faster than Reptile as a whole, but Reptile outranges all of Ermac's normals easily, though Ermac can do shit like u4 Reptile's d4.

This matchup isn't in anyone's favor. Whatsoever. Reptile wants to set up forceballs, and has many areas to set them up, but his best spot on the screen to do this is cut off by Ermac. It certainly isn't in Ermac's favor, but Ermacs need to learn shit still in this matchup.

Metzos: Reptile's AA 2 doesn't lead to anything other than 2 xx acid hand from the right ranges, and EX dash doesn't have armor.

I never said Reptile loses from far away. I said its even. Also if i remember correctly, Nikollas once full combo'ed me after an AA 2. Sorry about that i thought it did. My bad. Yeah you can use U4, IF you anticipate Reptile will go for a d4. But since the overhead is so slow if you get crossed up you re dead. Also Reptile is not that slower than Ermac. They have like 1f difference with their primary strings (Ermac's standing 1 at 10f's while Reptile's standing 1 is at 11 and Ermac's standing 3 at 12 f's while Reptile's at 13f's if i m not mistaken.)

 

[Axel_Redd]

Full screen: And whats stopping the Reptile player by just dash blocking or dash d3 to come to mid screen where Ermac struggles against him ? Also his spits are faster than Ermac's projectile. One force ball is enough to lock down Ermac, and there, Reptile has the projectile advantage again. I explained why tp shouldnt be taken as a serious consideration here. High lvl Reptiles wont spam force balls and spits. If you do what you said Reptile is in. He will just block the projectile, block the TKP, dash and then he is.

Midscreen: Reptile's AA's dont suck lol. He has AA 3, AA 2 and force balls are also very good as AA's, plus he has armor on dash and on slide. He also wont do invinsibility mid screen, but up close after the end of the string, and his hit box is getting really messed up there. I ve tried doing 121 on reaction after he became inv once, and it went through him.

Up close: The thing is, that air-blast works against Ermac in the particular MU. On block it leaves the opponent on sweep range and Reptile's d4 beats all of Ermac's options and on top of that Reptile can easily do EX dash and he is in again. As i said before, Reptile has no problem building bars in the particular MU. It is winnable for Ermac though, but Reptile has a bit the upper hand here imo.

EDIT: He can easily just do the safe over-head when he pressures as a mean to build up meter when up close.

at what point did 121 go thru reptile? what exactly did reptile do that caused this?

 

[Metzos]

at what point did 121 go thru reptile? what exactly did reptile do that caused this?

He finished the 321 block string and after that he canceled it to inv. On reaction i did 121 and the standing 1 didnt hit him. Dunno perhaps i didnt do it fast enough but still, its not like i was that late.

 

[THTB]

I never said Reptile loses from far away. I said its even. Also if i remember correctly, Nikollas once full combo'ed me after an AA 2. Sorry about that i thought it did. My bad. Yeah you can use U4, IF you anticipate Reptile will go for a d4. But since the overhead is so slow if you get crossed up you re dead. Also Reptile is not that slower than Ermac. They have like 1f difference with their primary strings (Ermac's standing 1 at 10f's while Reptile's standing 1 is at 11 and Ermac's standing 3 at 12 f's while Reptile's at 13f's if i m not mistaken.)

No, I know you didn't say Reptile lost from far away, that was towards Seven. And at max range 2, it will only combo into acid hand or EX forceball, but it's a sketchy range to pinpoint. Reptile's standing normals are slower overall than Ermac's by not much, but Ermac also has faster pokes than Reptile (by 1 frame on d3, 3 frames on d1).

 

[Axel_Redd]

also, people who play reptile need to start wiff punishing stuff more with f2 than with dash, f2 leads to a full combo...dash is just dash.

 

[Metzos]

No, I know you didn't say Reptile lost from far away, that was towards Seven. And at max range 2, it will only combo into acid hand or EX forceball, but it's a sketchy range to pinpoint. Reptile's standing normals are slower overall than Ermac's by not much, but Ermac also has faster pokes than Reptile (by 1 frame on d3, 3 frames on d1).

Yeah i know, but still that doesnt change much. His d3 is at -f on HIT how stupid is that ? Perhaps they did it that way cause it has insane range and it lowers his hit box thus making it extremely hard to punish, but still... -f on HIT ? Stupid... I dont know perhaps i dont play the MU correctly then. But in general whenever i have tried down poking Reptile after a dash whiff, he was always hitting me first with 3's or other normals. Maybe i m doing something wrong i dont know. Its a really fast paced MU for Ermac though.

Post edited.

 

[THTB]

also, people who play reptile need to start wiff punishing stuff more with f2 than with dash, f2 leads to a full combo...dash is just dash.

f2 for stationary shit, 2 for advancing stuff (2's hitbox is hilariously stupid...no hurtbox on the entire arm, basically. )

Metzos Yeah, about safe TKP range, I updated my post...didn't know if you saw it. Reptile's +1, so d3 is up to the game to decide. I wouldn't be surprised if Reptile's d3 has a better hitbox anyway).

 

[Seapeople]

EDIT 2: Didn't realized Somberness made changes to Reptile's frame data. Reptile dash has 16f duration (which changes a LOT of my perceptions of blocked FB at dash whiff range...that shit is at least +11 ; Also changes my outlook on dash in general).

I've been saying this for a while, forceball frame traps are huge.
Axel_Redd Reptile's d4 definitely doesn't give a safe jump. You have to be around +34 for anything like that.

 

[THTB]

Yeah, Reptile's only safe jump is 2 xx invis (Which is basically useful on the random occasion you want to catch an advancing opponent with 2 xx forceball...though with Noob in tag matches, it's hilariously good as a punisher).

 

[Metzos]

f2 for stationary shit, 2 for advancing stuff (2's hitbox is hilariously stupid...no hurtbox on the entire arm, basically. )

Metzos Yeah, about safe TKP range, I updated my post...didn't know if you saw it. Reptile's +1, so d3 is up to the game to decide. I wouldn't be surprised if Reptile's d3 has a better hitbox anyway).

Yeah just read it. That decides it. 6-4 Reptile. Just checked the frame data as well.

 

[THTB]

Yeah just read it. That decides it. 6-4 Reptile. Just checked the frame data as well.

Nah, wait a sec lol!

Yes, Reptile is +1, but he doesn't really get much off of it at all. At best, he beats you completely with dash, which if blocked is bad, but otherwise he'll either match or still lose (Likely lose, since he'll be reduced to d1 and d3 since your 1 will ALWAYS beat 3 still, and 1 gets ducked).

Reptile needs to be at least +2 on stuff to actually utilize the advantage, unless we're talking Kratos loooooool. It's still a mixup, and the game isn't lost. ^_^

 

[Metzos]

Nah, wait a sec lol!

Yes, Reptile is +1, but he doesn't really get much off of it at all. At best, he beats you completely with dash, which if blocked is bad, but otherwise he'll either match or still lose (Likely lose, since he'll be reduced to d1 and d3 since your 1 will ALWAYS beat 3 still, and 1 gets ducked).

Reptile needs to be at least +2 on stuff to actually utilize the advantage, unless we're talking Kratos loooooool. It's still a mixup, and the game isn't lost. ^_^

I ll keep practicing the MU although i dont intend to find much hope tbh with you. Plus he can bait d1 with EX dash afterwards, or if he anticipates the d1 done by Ermac and blocks it he can punish it afterwards. Both are at 6f so i guess its up to the P1 bug in the end.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

Very nice discussion going on here, i like it, no arguing or any bs, just good ol analysis, also THTB, any mus on my chart that you would change? always nice to hear your opinion on reptile things, and Metzos you are spot on about the reptile ermac mu for sure, which i can tell bcuz you have experience offline vs a reptile.

 

[Somberness]

hey Somberness can reptile jumpin punch after a d4 or no?

Not even close.

EDIT 2: Didn't realized Somberness made changes to Reptile's frame data.

I never changed that, it was always 16. On another topic, it's funny that people think force push was nerfed so bad when in reality, it only used to be -16 (1 frame difference).

 

[Metzos]

On another topic, it's funny that people think force push was nerfed so bad when in reality, it only used to be -16 (1 frame difference).

W00t ? You mean vanilla's Ermac TKP on block was only -16 ? You sure ?

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

Not even close.

I never changed that, it was always 16. On another topic, it's funny that people think force push was nerfed so bad when in reality, it only used to be -16 (1 frame difference).

it's range got nerfed hard tho, that's the big issue with the nerf.

 

[Metzos]

it's range got nerfed hard tho, that's the big issue with the nerf.

Yeah, plus TKP could, almost all the time, catch people when they jumped at sweep range back in the day. They fucked up its hit box.

 

[THTB]

Not even close.

I never changed that, it was always 16. On another topic, it's funny that people think force push was nerfed so bad when in reality, it only used to be -16 (1 frame difference).

I coulda swore you did...blah either way it's good news that I've been spreading false info on that.

MITDJT, I'm not sure on Baraka, but I can see where the 7-3 comes in. Baraka doesn't really stop Reptile from doing forceballs (EX charge through forceballs??? Man, who fucking cares LOL?), and can afford to have dash blocked quite a bit (Baraka at best gets f44, f4 into reset or f44 4 xx blade charge). But other than that one, Ermac is the only one I disagree on completely. Everything else is pretty gravy, and what I'd put.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

I coulda swore you did...blah either way it's good news that I've been spreading false info on that.

MITDJT, I'm not sure on Baraka, but I can see where the 7-3 comes in. Baraka doesn't really stop Reptile from doing forceballs (EX charge through forceballs??? Man, who fucking cares LOL?), and can afford to have dash blocked quite a bit (Baraka at best gets f44, f4 into reset or f44 4 xx blade charge). But other than that one, Ermac is the only one I disagree on completely. Everything else is pretty gravy, and what I'd put.

ah okay, also reptile can punish all blade charges from any distance, that's a big thing for sure, and for mac, mannnn you know rep gets in there in that mu haha, it's not unmanageable for ermac, but def slight advantage bcuz and tkp equal rep getting in or a punish. I found ways to deal with his iafb as well.

 

[Metzos]

Very nice discussion going on here, i like it, no arguing or any bs, just good ol analysis, also THTB, any mus on my chart that you would change? always nice to hear your opinion on reptile things, and Metzos you are spot on about the reptile ermac mu for sure, which i can tell bcuz you have experience offline vs a reptile.

Trust me man, i wish i was wrong. Reptile-Ermac MU is really starting to get me on my nerves. IF Ermac wants to win this, he has to be ON POINT with his tp's on Reptile's force balls and spits. And ofc full punish any wrong dashes done by Reptile. Other than that, i really dont know. But imo Ermac destroys Reptile if he puts him in the corner and starts corner zoning him. He just needs to be careful of any EX slides which will put Ermac in the corner. That, plus Ermac must utilize many throws in order to send Reptile quickly in the corner which will allow him to control the match from there.

 

[THTB]

ah okay, also reptile can punish all blade charges from any distance, that's a big thing for sure, and for mac, mannnn you know rep gets in there in that mu haha, it's not unmanageable for ermac, but def slight advantage bcuz and tkp equal rep getting in or a punish. I found ways to deal with his iafb as well.

Ah, I see. Well if you found a way to deal with iaFB, that's huge. That's what, IMO, was swinging the matchup to even.

From what I remember, absolute max range charge is unpunishable (dash whiffs), but who cares? Baraka doesn't even have anything to stop you from doing anything...what he does have leads to like no damage. That's one of Baraka's biggest problems in general...he arguably has it worse than Jax in punishment (Jax at least gets something you could consider a punish at -8...Baraka isn't really until -12).

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

Trust me man, i wish i was wrong. Reptile-Ermac MU is really starting to get me on my nerves. IF Ermac wants to win this, he has to be ON POINT with his tp's on Reptile's force balls and spits. And ofc full punish any wrong dashes done by Reptile. Other than that, i really dont know. But imo Ermac destroys Reptile if he puts him in the corner and starts corner zoning him. He just needs to be careful of any EX slides which will Ermac in the corner. That, plus Ermac must utilize many throws in order to send Reptile quickly in the corner which will allow him to control the match from there.

yes indeed, i played this mu some with my bro and as ermac, i could not afford to mess up on timing a tele or air blast or he'd be in. Throws def got to be utilized, and tkps should be used sparingly.

 

[Metzos]

yes indeed, i played this mu some with my bro and as ermac, i could not afford to mess up on timing a tele or air blast or he'd be in. Throws def got to be utilized, and tkps should be used sparingly.

That and good reactions from the Ermac player. I m definately gonna practice this MU more. I cant afford losing to a slimy iguana.

 

[Chongo]

That and good reactions from the Ermac player. I m definately gonna practice this MU more. I cant afford losing to a slimy iguana.

HE'S A FUCKING LIZARD, NOT AN IGUANA!

 

[Metzos]

HE'S A FUCKING LIZARD, NOT AN IGUANA!

Makes no difference to me. HE IS GOING DOWN !