ten characters better than johnny cage.

[salvificblood]

With cage and sonya doing so well, (thanks for starting that trend, Foxy), you will see more Kabal, Kenshi, etc and perhaps a bit more Sub-Zero as secondaries for those who aren't comfortable with their mains in the cage matchup.

I don't really think Cage struggles that much with people who keep him out, per say. I mean, Sub-Zero can keep him out, it's just completely pointless if he's not in touching distance when it comes to how much life they both have left... Cage forces Sub to use a lot of d4 and it's just a big footsies battle, so not a bad matchup for cage, really. Maybe .5 in Sub's favour, but idk, it's close to negligible. Sub has the advantage of the clone and ex slide to escape pressure, but ex slide wastes meter and can be baited for a full punish, which then leaves you without a breaker in most cases and Sub has close to zero comeback factor apart from cornering Cage, so it's just quite a dumb matchup for both characters. Person with better spacing and footsies wins so... close to even.

Who else would Cage lose to? Noob Saibot? Nah, Noob does worse in the matchup than Sub, imo. He probably loses .5 to Cage because Noob absolutely cannotn get cage off him once he gets in. Even if he d3s cage, so what? He can't do anything anyway because all his fastest strings whiff high so cage will just come straight back in and d3 him back and then mess him up. Upknee will get punished on whiff, so... Noob has to poke Cage to get out of pressure but entering a poking war is the absolute worst thing noob can do against cage so he's dead against a good Cage once he's in.

It's probably only Kabal that Cage really loses against.

 

[Death]

@ Foxy, I know you have which is why I always said Cage is top 5. This character takes a lot of skill to win with at the highest level. I dont think any1 has taking him to close to his max potential. I do think the Cage community in general has gotta level up. I see a lot of Cage players thinking hes not top 10 and has like 5-7 bad matchups. This is crazy. Cage is very ridiculous we gotta stop kidding ourselves.

@Salvicblood, I agree with you man. Probably Kabal and Kenshi due to kenshis advantage armor. But him losing bad to sub, reptile, ermac, noob, cyrax is CRAZY!

 

[crosstalk]

@ Foxy, I know you have which is why I always said Cage is top 5. This character takes a lot of skill to win with at the highest level. I dont think any1 has taking him to close to his max potential. I do think the Cage community in general has gotta level up. I see a lot of Cage players thinking hes not top 10 and has like 5-7 bad matchups. This is crazy. Cage is very ridiculous we gotta stop kidding ourselves.

I completely agree. As soon as I saw Cage's position in Brady's tier list, I was like "whaaaaat?" I think he's a great character but very hard to play at the highest level. The community matchup chart we have now is much more accurate, but it will be adjusted eventually.

 

[Metzos]

@ Foxy, I know you have which is why I always said Cage is top 5. This character takes a lot of skill to win with at the highest level. I dont think any1 has taking him to close to his max potential. I do think the Cage community in general has gotta level up. I see a lot of Cage players thinking hes not top 10 and has like 5-7 bad matchups. This is crazy. Cage is very ridiculous we gotta stop kidding ourselves.

@Salvicblood, I agree with you man. Probably Kabal and Kenshi due to kenshis advantage armor. But him losing bad to sub, reptile, ermac, noob, cyrax is CRAZY!

He doesnt lose bad to Ermac by all means. What i ve been saying for months now though is that the Ermac vs JC MU isnt considered a bad MU for Ermac. Its winnable for both characters. I was just answering to all those saying "Once JC starts pressuring Ermac, Ermac is screwed" which isnt true by a long shot.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

@ Foxy, I know you have which is why I always said Cage is top 5. This character takes a lot of skill to win with at the highest level. I dont think any1 has taking him to close to his max potential. I do think the Cage community in general has gotta level up. I see a lot of Cage players thinking hes not top 10 and has like 5-7 bad matchups. This is crazy. Cage is very ridiculous we gotta stop kidding ourselves.

@Salvicblood, I agree with you man. Probably Kabal and Kenshi due to kenshis advantage armor. But him losing bad to sub, reptile, ermac, noob, cyrax is CRAZY!

Thats the thing though, we know we have bad matchups, but we deal with them which is why they dont seem so bad.

Cage is the only character in this game, except maybe Sonya and Kabal to a certain extent, that can disable another character with his rushdown. Once Cage touches you, yea you're in trouble, but that rule applies to everybody else. Whats more important is the opponents effectiveness of escape and the Cage players ability to read the method of escape.

Once the Cage player knows every possible method of escape the other character has both players have to make a read about whats going to happen next, most players just panic against it because its so fast paced, probably one of the quickest set of mindgames in the game.

I dont think Cage has to fear Cyrax, but he does have to respect him.
Sub Zero matchup is pretty similar to Kitana matchup, slightly Subs favour

Reptile and Ermac both do a good job of keeping him away and restrict his mindgame options, making it in their favour. That being said I've been making use of his 1 3 2 string alot more lately, that string is dirty, neutral on all hits, on 1 3 you're at enough distance to make the opponent whiff a poke which can be punished with a F3, or if they jump back punish with a B3/F3.

1 3 2 in the corner can combo into NP, pushes back to AA / F3 / B3 range on block

 

[KamikazeJD]

^Truth Reverend!

 

[crosstalk]

Thats the thing though, we know we have bad matchups, but we deal with them which is why they dont seem so bad.

Cage is the only character in this game, except maybe Sonya and Kabal to a certain extent, that can disable another character with his rushdown. Once Cage touches you, yea you're in trouble, but that rule applies to everybody else. Whats more important is the opponents effectiveness of escape and the Cage players ability to read the method of escape.

Once the Cage player knows every possible method of escape the other character has both players have to make a read about whats going to happen next, most players just panic against it because its so fast paced, probably one of the quickest set of mindgames in the game.

I dont think Cage has to fear Cyrax, but he does have to respect him.
Sub Zero matchup is pretty similar to Kitana matchup, slightly Subs favour

Reptile and Ermac both do a good job of keeping him away and restrict his mindgame options, making it in their favour. That being said I've been making use of his 1 3 2 string alot more lately, that string is dirty, neutral on all hits, on 1 3 you're at enough distance to make the opponent whiff a poke which can be punished with a F3, or if they jump back punish with a B3/F3.

1 3 2 in the corner can combo into NP, pushes back to AA / F3 / B3 range on block

Uh oh, new Cage tech? Good stuff, I'll have to try that out. Always thought it was useless except for Ermac and Reptile FB combos.

 

[UsedForGlue]

Cage is the best rushdown character in the game, and thats all he has. He doesn't have a ton of tools to get in when he wants, but he stays in once hes there.

Zoning characters don't really do that well against him, as straight up zoning is overrated anyway, and it will only keep people away for a short time, and if you have no 6 frame moves or pokes, or even armoured moves, you will struggle even harder when he's in.

But for me, the most annoying thing personally about some Cage players is, once they have established the basic block string threats, they can just get away with random nonsense, , , ... As if they are ''mixing you up'', but in all sense, you are just humouring them until they commit.

Cage is the most dangerous character in the game when he's up close with a huge come back factor, and he is never to be overlooked or under estimated, and I honestly believe the only way to beat him, is to go toe to toe right in his face, and counter his block strings, as there really isn't anything to punish him for besides that.

 

[ragnar0kz28]

He doesnt loses bad to Ermac by all means. What i ve been saying for months now though is that the Ermac vs JC MU isnt considered a bad MU for Ermac. Its winnable for both characters. I was just answering to all those saying "Once JC starts pressuring Ermac, Ermac is screwed" which isnt true by a long shot.

IF Ermac gets cornered he can only bend over and take it in the * thats all but if ermac keeps a dynamic fight back forward and dont get cornered he stands a chance.

 

[GuamoKun]

CSZ laughs at and devours f3 for breakfast.

You are not so fearsome!

lololol but really, JC is flavor of the month but that doesn't imply he is a bad character.

 

[salvificblood]

Cage is the best rushdown character in the game, and thats all he has. He doesn't have a ton of tools to get in when he wants, but he stays in once hes there.

Zoning characters don't really do that well against him, as straight up zoning is overrated anyway, and it will only keep people away for a short time, and if you have no 6 frame moves or pokes, or even armoured moves, you will struggle even harder when he's in.

But for me, the most annoying thing personally about some Cage players is, once they have established the basic block string threats, they can just get away with random nonsense, , , ... As if they are ''mixing you up'', but in all sense, you are just humouring them until they commit.

Cage is the most dangerous character in the game when he's up close with a huge come back factor, and he is never to be overlooked or under estimated, and I honestly believe the only way to beat him, is to go toe to toe right in his face, and counter his block strings, as there really isn't anything to punish him for besides that.

Lol, that's the funniest thing about it, how is doing 11,21,21,21 like an infinite number of times a mixup? Whenever I play cage I think to myself: finish the bloody string already, and it always seems like the moment I start trying to do anything after the first f3 or standing jab,I get hit by the rest of the string and nut punched. It's a joke at times, lol.

 

[mekane]

at 0 frames, if you cross over an F3 attempt, you get a full combo right?
if you duck a 11, do you get full combo or just upper cut?

so to me it seems like cage pressure shoulnd't be that hard to escape, in theory.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Cage and the Guile theme are a match made in heaven.

 

[salvificblood]

at 0 frames, if you cross over an F3 attempt, you get a full combo right?
if you duck a 11, do you get full combo or just upper cut?

so to me it seems like cage pressure shoulnd't be that hard to escape, in theory.

In theory, but for every time you guess wrong, he just hit confirms into a nut punch combo so you're not going to get out consistently by jumping.

My problem with mk9 is I feel like the blockstun turns my character into a grandma so when I try to input an ex move to get out, my character just sits there in blockstun, so in the end, I just start mashing the dpad out of frustration.

Also, doesn't f3 have enough forward momentum to avoid the crossup punch? i have jumped over cage multiple times when he goes for that knee, and he always dashes out of the way of the crossup punch, the slippery punk.

 

[crosstalk]

at 0 frames, if you cross over an F3 attempt, you get a full combo right?
if you duck a 11, do you get full combo or just upper cut?

so to me it seems like cage pressure shoulnd't be that hard to escape, in theory.

If it's a late f3, then yes. Otherwise you'll get AAed, either by f3 or 1 or 2 if the Cage player sees it. As for ducking 11, it depends on the character. Smoke would probably fare much better (d1 SB), while other characters aren't fast enough to punish it fully.

 

[Big Pampering]

Only Kabal, Kenshi, Kitana and Sonya are the only characters better than Cage and even Kitana is a big maybe. Cage is top 5. Cage worst MU is Kabal and his 1/2 others is probably 4.5 at worst for him. Cage is not flavor of the month. This game is going down the road where characters like sonya/cage are going to dominate while good zoners/characters like kabal/kenshi are going to be up there too.

I really dont think Jax (overrated), Cyrax (Overrated), Freddy, KL(Overrated), Raiden (Overrated) and smoke are better. People/Cage players might blow me up for saying Cage is top 5 but you heard it hear. I guarantee by EVO a lot of people will have Cage in their top 5. In general I think Cage players as a whole just needs to level up. Cage at the highest possible level can win majors. No one has taking him there yet. The closest I seen who has is Curbo, Maxter and Foxy and even they can tell you that theres so much potential with him that they didnt even reach yet.

There is a lot of stuff people arent doing with Kung lao, but people are overrating him if they say top 5. Characters like sektor, kabal, kitana, mileena, sonya and jax are definitely better than him. Cage is also probably in that list. the problem with cage is, even though you can zone him, he will catch up with the life lead by gettin in once and he builds meter while doing massive chip. His projectile is a bit underrated and I think maxter uses his projectile properly. you can use ex version to get in and if you space the regular version people cant neutral crouch it. the problem with a lot of people is that they try to keep him away too much. let him get into the range where he can almost reach you with f3. the thing with f3 is that you need to whiff punish it. Thats how I play against cage at least.

 

[Death]

There is a lot of stuff people arent doing with Kung lao, but people are overrating him if they say top 5. Characters like sektor, kabal, kitana, mileena, sonya and jax are definitely better than him. Cage is also probably in that list. the problem with cage is, even though you can zone him, he will catch up with the life lead by gettin in once and he builds meter while doing massive chip. His projectile is a bit underrated and I think maxter uses his projectile properly. you can use ex version to get in and if you space the regular version people cant neutral crouch it. the problem with a lot of people is that they try to keep him away too much. let him get into the range where he can almost reach you with f3. the thing with f3 is that you need to whiff punish it. Thats how I play against cage at least.

His projectile is very underrated and you make good points about ex forceball getting in. The adv on block really helps him getting in and Maxter uses that strategy very well. I do kind of disagree with KL. I do think hes still top 10 even after all his nerfs.

 

[Zyphox]

@ Foxy, I know you have which is why I always said Cage is top 5. This character takes a lot of skill to win with at the highest level. I dont think any1 has taking him to close to his max potential. I do think the Cage community in general has gotta level up. I see a lot of Cage players thinking hes not top 10 and has like 5-7 bad matchups. This is crazy. Cage is very ridiculous we gotta stop kidding ourselves.

@Salvicblood, I agree with you man. Probably Kabal and Kenshi due to kenshis advantage armor. But him losing bad to sub, reptile, ermac, noob, cyrax is CRAZY!

your kidding with reptile? death no offense but you have no idea how reptile destroys cage. ermac has fast pokes, his throw throws you full screen and you cant play footsies against ermac because you have to respect TKP. noob is a little easier once your in, sub beats cage, please dont get that twisted, no offense but you seem like your salty because you lost to cage at mlg, saying cage is top 5 is beyond ludicrous. you play mileena and sonya, mileena loses to cage = cage top 5?

 

[Big Pampering]

His projectile is very underrated and you make good points about ex forceball getting in. The adv on block really helps him getting in and Maxter uses that strategy very well. I do kind of disagree with KL. I do think hes still top 10 even after all his nerfs.

The thing with Kl is, hes kind of a bully against the lower tier characters but he loses to the tops like cage, sektor(worst matchup imo), sonya, kitana, jax. His game revolves around a lot of chip like cage and building meter. but his strings just whiff against low hitbox characters and the teleport is hardly any use against low hitbox characters, so he cant really get his offense started without taking huge risks and his damage output from the risky spins isnt as much as all the other characters. next to that his pokes are mediocre, d1 is 7 frames and he has a 9 frame d3.

This character excels in gettin in but suffers when his rushdown gets beat(jax,sonya,cage, kitana). A lot of people still arent using their low hitboxes to the fullest potential. Just look at detroit against riu, he couldnt get any pressure started because his string whiffs halfway on sonya, which is a free uppercut.

Edit: the nerfs didnt really change the problems he already had. the biggest differnce is the low hat, which was pretty useful against low hitbox characters. but abusing the low hat from point blank is just putting yourself at disadvantage when blocked against the same characters that can blow kl up when they are in your face(sonya, sektor, cage, kitana etc)

 

[Death]

your kidding with reptile? death no offense but you have no idea how reptile destroys cage. ermac has fast pokes, his throw throws you full screen and you cant play footsies against ermac because you have to respect TKP. noob is a little easier once your in, sub beats cage, please dont get that twisted, no offense but you seem like your salty because you lost to cage at mlg, saying cage is top 5 is beyond ludicrous. you play mileena and sonya, mileena loses to cage = cage top 5?

I'm not salty. I didn't lose to Cage. I lost to Maxter and Curb because they are better than me. I have been saying for the longest time that Cage was top 5. There is a lot of Cage players out there who think their character is trash and bottom 15. Cage does not lose to Sub-Zero! Thats the biggest myth in this game. Cage does not lose to characters that are good zoning or have IAS/IAF projectiles.

I'm not saying im right im just voicing my opinion on Cage. I don't lose to Cage. I lose to players better than me that are using Cage. I actually like fighting and beat most Cages but their better.

I actually use Cage as a pocket character and that was my only character that actually gives Curbo a challenge in our matches. But with that said, to win with cage is very hard to do at high level because of the players reaction/reads/hit-confirming skills. Why do you think there so many average cages out there and only a select few who are elite. Its the player not the character. I think Cage played at the highest level is a top 5 character.

FYI, I'm perfectly fine losing to Maxter and Curb and not saying I only lost cuz Cage is top 5. I dont ever say excuses like some other people saying controllers, tvs, ps3 pad etc etc. I dont have a big ego like a lot of people in this community and I'm perfectly fine losing to better players. I just have to level up.

 

[Death]

The thing with Kl is, hes kind of a bully against the lower tier characters but he loses to the tops like cage, sektor(worst matchup imo), sonya, kitana, jax. His game revolves around a lot of chip like cage and building meter. but his strings just whiff against low hitbox characters and the teleport is hardly any use against low hitbox characters, so he cant really get his offense started without taking huge risks and his damage output from the risky spins isnt as much as all the other characters. next to that his pokes are mediocre, d1 is 7 frames and he has a 9 frame d3.

This character excels in gettin in but suffers when his rushdown gets beat(jax,sonya,cage, kitana). A lot of people still arent using their low hitboxes to the fullest potential. Just look at detroit against riu, he couldnt get any pressure started because his string whiffs halfway on sonya, which is a free uppercut.

Edit: the nerfs didnt really change the problems he already had. the biggest differnce is the low hat, which was pretty useful against low hitbox characters. but abusing the low hat from point blank is just putting yourself at disadvantage when blocked against the same characters that can blow kl up when they are in your face(sonya, sektor, cage, kitana etc)

I do think the low hat nerf was dumb. Making it -12 on block is stupid. I think it was -7 before? If it was it was fine. The adv on hit is what made it dumb. It should of just been neutral on hit. The spin pushback was good because now some characters can get their max punish on it.

 

[charlieonline]

I will never switch from Ermac to no one else. They can all rot in hell. Counter-picking sucks anyway. Where is the fun in that ?

Let me quote Sun Tzu (or something along the lines of this).

Let us say we have 3 horses. One very fast, one fast and one slow. A strategic player can guarantee an win by reading his opponents move. I will explain but first let me ask you the question and see if you can figure this out.

First, how would you play your 3 horses? Most people will put their very fast horse and expect a win because it is their best and so on. However, by using such a simple strategy as I will explain below you can see how MK may evolve into more of a strategic play while being at tournaments by using counter picks to secure wins and control the flow of your matches.

SPOILER: The answer to the above is quite simple. Play your slowest horse first and loose against his very fast horse. Next play your very fast horse against his fast horse and your fast horse against his slow. You win two.

I believe a loyal MK fighter will try to stick to 1 character for an entire tournament. A wise player on the other hand will level a repertoire of fighters. This can be viewed as a card game in a sense where you are playing your cards (fighters) wisely to secure wins.

Some may think it's just counter picking but really it's smart play.

I on the other hand, just play SUB =)

But I play Baraka online to spin all those noob as Kung Laos lol. Baraka wrecks noobs online... and in the corner they don't know wtf is going on hahaha

 

[Big Pampering]

I do think the low hat nerf was dumb. Making it -12 on block is stupid. I think it was -7 before? If it was it was fine. The adv on hit is what made it dumb. It should of just been neutral on hit. The spin pushback was good because now some characters can get their max punish on it.

Exactly my thoughts. removing the pushback on spin was a bit unnecessary but seeing how it was realy hard for some characters to punish the old spin, there was no choice. low hat should be -7 mannnnnn

 

[DanCock]

Lol at this thread. I'm not reading all of these posts. But cage has always been a top 10-15 character.

Do people know that if your fast enough you can jump out of his second fireball of the enhanced fireball?? It may just be a sindel thing, it is possible I have done it a few times. I play the sindel vs cage matchup alot. I always let the cage player hit me with the last hit of f333 it gives me a way out then to go back to the super zoning mix up pressure with sindel.

Idk I'm a player that goes to tourneys and gets super anxious and chokes so whatever.


Sent from my iPad 2 using Tapatalk

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

your kidding with reptile? death no offense but you have no idea how reptile destroys cage. ermac has fast pokes, his throw throws you full screen and you cant play footsies against ermac because you have to respect TKP. noob is a little easier once your in, sub beats cage, please dont get that twisted, no offense but you seem like your salty because you lost to cage at mlg, saying cage is top 5 is beyond ludicrous. you play mileena and sonya, mileena loses to cage = cage top 5?

Do you not even read his posts? Or do you just search for something you can blow WAY outta proportion?
You can play footsie with EVERY character in the game. Not a single one is immune to it.
This is why everyone received armor... *sigh*