ten characters better than johnny cage.

[Spirit Guide]

Freddy doesn't beat Johnny.

 

[Big Pampering]

I'd happily put my KL against any Cage out there and win. Cage has to play to KLs rules. He may have an avaergae 7 frame D1, but he has an above average standing 2 that is 7 frames, 2 1 is neutral in block or you can do 2 4 which is still only -1 on block.

You talk alot about people using KL wrong, but make no mention of his insane ability to get rushdown characters off him.

KL v Jax - He can duck Jaxs F4 and spin/21, major issue for Jax
KL v Cage - The threat of the spin makes a Cage player hesitant, but the spin never has to come out since his standin 2 is 7 frames and can be confirmed into
KL vs Sonya - Since when was this supposed to be bad for KL? He can interupt her strings for a full combo, she can only interupt his with an uppercut, her MS attacks can be spun out of too.
KL v Sektor - Read KL vs Sonya.

Low hitbox characters really arent that much of a problem for KL because hes got such good mobility it opens up alot of opportunities for jumps. Its not so easy to AA him because there is a sweet spot where it becomes ambiguous if he's gonna divekick away or jump in for a JIP/JK.



Wanna know why people think Cage is top 5? Think about the players that use him, and have been seen by the community using him, as well as having success using him:

- REO
- Maxter
- Curb
- Dizzy
- Myself

Where in that post did I say people were using KL wrong? And you can hitconfirm standing 2?
Interrupting strings with spin is damn risky. and sonyas and johnnys strings are better than KL's so even though kl can interrupt with spin but its dangerous, youre not getting over 25 ish perecnt with kl meterless off of a naked spin while youre fucked when sonya, sektor or cage catches you. Kung lao just doesnt even have acces to half the amount of meter he usually has.

jumpkick into dive kick/jumpin punch is good mixups, but how is divekicking away any good if you were jumping to get in, in the first place? I dont get it. And I seriously doubt its a good idea to jump at any of these characters.

And Imo these things you are mentioning arte hella risky.

Maybe its just me, but on paper you can interrupt pressure and all that but in real game it just really feels in favor of these characters.

BTW what is your tier placement for this character?

 

[Metzos]

Where in that post did I say people were using KL wrong? And you can hitconfirm standing 2?
Interrupting strings with spin is damn risky. and sonyas and johnnys strings are better than KL's so even though kl can interrupt with spin but its dangerous, youre not getting over 25 ish perecnt with kl meterless off of a naked spin while youre fucked when sonya, sektor or cage catches you. Kung lao just doesnt even have acces to half the amount of meter he usually has.

jumpkick into dive kick/jumpin punch is good mixups, but how is divekicking away any good if you were jumping to get in, in the first place? I dont get it. And I seriously doubt its a good idea to jump at any of these characters.

And Imo these things you are mentioning arte hella risky.

Maybe its just me, but on paper you can interrupt pressure and all that but in real game it just really feels in favor of these characters.

BTW what is your tier placement for this character?

Jumping kicks interrupt most of the time normal AA actions m8. Just wanted to clarify that.

 

[Big Pampering]

Jumping kicks interrupt most of the time normal AA actions m8. Just wanted to clarify that.

I know, actually Kl's jumpkick or crossover jumpkick hitconfirm ex dive kick actually leads to 33% combo. But cant jax and sonya still armor him out of that, especially that damn cartwheel. and then you have sektor standing 6 frame anti air, I dont know if a jumpkick can beat that actually.

 

[BigC]

Tremor is top 3.
No but in all reality, like many said before me it's all in the player. I've seen damn good jades and Barakas and some really awful and great cages. Curbo showed what cage really can and what is possible for Cage.

 

[THTB]

49. The Giant Ape Characters in DBZ Budokai Tenkaichi 3

Only GAB Vegeta was actually good. But no, he wasn't better than Kabal.

 

[Metzos]

I know, actually Kl's jumpkick or crossover jumpkick hitconfirm ex dive kick actually leads to 33% combo. But cant jax and sonya still armor him out of that, especially that damn cartwheel. and then you have sektor standing 6 frame anti air, I dont know if a jumpkick can beat that actually.

Yeah they can. You are right about that. Still though the dmg wont be great, especially from Jax. Not too sure about Sonya. About Sektor's standing 1, yes it is fast but it can be beaten also. Jumping kick is the perfect anti-AA tool for that. The range of a jumping kick cant be compared with Sektor's tiny standing 1. Jumping kicks can only be beaten by normal AA attacks if you backdash at the right distance cause then you cause the jumping kick to whiff. Its a little tricky.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Where in that post did I say people were using KL wrong? And you can hitconfirm standing 2?
Interrupting strings with spin is damn risky. and sonyas and johnnys strings are better than KL's so even though kl can interrupt with spin but its dangerous, youre not getting over 25 ish perecnt with kl meterless off of a naked spin while youre fucked when sonya, sektor or cage catches you. Kung lao just doesnt even have acces to half the amount of meter he usually has.

jumpkick into dive kick/jumpin punch is good mixups, but how is divekicking away any good if you were jumping to get in, in the first place? I dont get it. And I seriously doubt its a good idea to jump at any of these characters.

And Imo these things you are mentioning arte hella risky.

Maybe its just me, but on paper you can interrupt pressure and all that but in real game it just really feels in favor of these characters.

BTW what is your tier placement for this character?

Still not listening, I said interupt their strings with 2 1, not spin, why would you ever spin out of shit with KL when you have a standing 2 thats 7 frames, can be hit confirmed into a launcher or 21212 as a blockstring.

Sonyas strings are worse than KLs since she can be full combo punished for hers, whereas KL can ONLY be uppercutted or poked. So the arguement that low hitbox characters affect him is kinda void, since it affects other characters just as bad or worse. Especially since most characters lack mobility like KL who forces people to stand with the amount of opportunities he can jump.

Interrupting Cage blockstrings isnt an 'on paper' thing. Must just be a thing that only a few people do because it seems like most of you dont understand what I'm saying.

 

[charlieonline]

Heh nice post m8 . But the point is why should i go and counterpick since i know my character has the tools to win all his matches, good and bad, if he is played correctly ? It doesnt make sense. Thats why i said what i said. I don't mind ppl counter-picking but i dont support it either. About the horses saying i can just not show him all of my strategies and mixups if i dont want to be exposed from my 1st match. I ve done it with Ermac many times and it worked really well so far. The only reason i m saying all that is because i play a character which is extremely underrated but on the same he is a very well versed character against all of his MU's.

There is nothing wrong with playing one single character if you believe you can take the entire cast, I myself haven't really found a character that fits my style and complements my Sub.

The point I was trying to explain is how counter picking, or building a repertoire of fighters (see REO, POTH, Maxter, CDJr) comes into play. Some view it as a counter pick but there is a greater picture here. You CAN take 1 character and do very well (CD) and you CAN also slowly build a "deck of cards" as well. I think it's more the people who bash counter picking that need to wake up. It's a valid strategy played outside of the arena.

For instance, do you remember PL versus CDJr? Both went hidden yet they both chose their original mains. What if PL had somehow secretly mastered Cage. CDJr voiced his concerns about the Jax vs Cage fight and PL has the skill to level a really nasty one.

By explaining my story above I bring into this the aspect of reading your opponents character choice, this is a read, much like how high end players make reads inside the game itself. It also occurs at the character select screen.

I just love seeing MK played at high levels, and the bitching just needs to end and people need to accept the choices these players are doing in their attempts to become champion.

 

[Metzos]

Interrupting Cage blockstrings isnt an 'on paper' thing. Must just be a thing that only a few people do because it seems like most of you dont understand what I'm saying.

U MAD BRO ? WHY SO SERIOUS ?

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

U MAD BRO ? WHY SO SERIOUS ?

FUCK YOU ASSHOLE! I'LL GET 'IT' ON YOU!

charlieonline PL doesnt need to learn Cage to beat CD Jr, he just had to spin EVERY time CD touched him, he wasnt punishing the F4s at all, and thats mainly what he was getting hit by. Its just something for him to learn is all. Once his KL gets back into the groove he'll be a strong competitor again.

At least thats what I believe.

 

[Metzos]

There is nothing wrong with playing one single character if you believe you can take the entire cast, I myself haven't really found a character that fits my style and complements my Sub.

The point I was trying to explain is how counter picking, or building a repertoire of fighters (see REO, POTH, Maxter, CDJr) comes into play. Some view it as a counter pick but there is a greater picture here. You CAN take 1 character and do very well (CD) and you CAN also slowly build a deck of cards as well. I think it's more the people who bash counter picking that need to wake up. It's a valid strategy played outside of the arena.

For instance, do you remember PL versus CDJr? Both went hidden yet they both chose their original mains. What if PL had somehow secretly mastered Cage. CDJr voiced his concerns about the Jax vs Cage fight and PL has the skill to level a really nasty one.

By explaining my story above I bring into this the aspect of reading your opponents character choice, this is a read, much like how high end players make reads inside the game itself. It also occurs at the character select screen.

I just love seeing MK played at high levels, and the bitching just needs to end and people need to accept the choices these players are doing in their attempts to become champion.

Fair enough.

 

[Metzos]

FUCK YOU ASSHOLE! I'LL GET 'IT' ON YOU!

charlieonline PL doesnt need to learn Cage to beat CD Jr, he just had to spin EVERY time CD touched him, he wasnt punishing the F4s at all, and thats mainly what he was getting hit by. Its just something for him to learn is all. Once his KL gets back into the groove he'll be a strong competitor again.

At least thats what I believe.

"IT" ?! You mean an "IT"friend ? (Remembers the conversation of the last night at SVB).

 

[Mikemetroid]

They are all vulnerable to nut punch this thread is bananas.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

"IT" ?! You mean an "IT"friend ? (Remembers the conversation that happened in the last night of SVB).

Yea you know... it!

 

[Mikemetroid]

No one literally means only 10 characters when they say top 10. There's too many ridiculous characters. He is probably as good if not better than half of those 10 characters though. I can see him being better than Cyrax, Kung Lao, Jax, Freddy.

What is the Cage MU chart? I mean the real one, not the old conventional wisdom were if you have a good projectile you blow JC up.

Dizzy and I are working on it I promise.

 

[charlieonline]

FUCK YOU ASSHOLE! I'LL GET 'IT' ON YOU!

charlieonline PL doesnt need to learn Cage to beat CD Jr, he just had to spin EVERY time CD touched him, he wasnt punishing the F4s at all, and thats mainly what he was getting hit by. Its just something for him to learn is all. Once his KL gets back into the groove he'll be a strong competitor again.

At least thats what I believe.

That may be true, I was just using this as an example for Metzos regarding the double hidden select scenario he brought up in his post.

 

[swag1]

I think the old idea still exists that if a character can throw a projectile, they can blow up Cage. That's not completely accurate. I believe that because Cage has some of the worst anti-zoning tools in the game. However, how do people deal with Kabal's IAGB's that are so fast that nobody can touch him.

Dash block & crouch. That's what you have to do. If he gets in, he stays in. IMO, he is #9 in the game.

 

[Zyphox]

HOLY FUCK I CAN'T STOP LAUGHING.



You lost all credibility right here, by the way. Better luck next time.

thank you dictator of credibility i shall overlook my posts next time for your sake

 

[Zyphox]

dude the days of "if a character is good at zoning" are over. Maybe Kenshi is the only one that can zone him and keep him out but thats because kenshi is another ridiculous character that has safe armor and adv on block etc. If your not having success as Cage I just think you have to level up man. I gotta level up too obviously lol. Every1 just has to level up. Cage has the tools and the footsies to be in the top 5. Him having all these bad MUs is really myth. I really dont see Ice clone stopping him or someone like kitana who has an IAF. Those days are over.

i see a pattern here, you are overlooking how effect zoning is as a tool, and over exagerating rushdown, i think there is a sweet spot between both, thats why mk is balanced, neither can you zone someone good out the entire game (unless your kenshi) but you cant stay on top of someone either in the same way. do you agree to this? and i agree i need to level up, i dont have the time and resources to get good at this game like i had for halo 3 for example, if this game came a year before it did i would have but thats not the case anyway. the only zoning i ever had trouble with is mr mileenas zoning, and i'm quickly adapting to that and he has taught me a few things without really saying anything, but let me know what u think i said about zoning and rushdown am interested to know what people think about that and we can get a better perspective on MU

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

armor on his ex slide, his forceball and spit are good to keep him out, you get caught once with a forceball from reptile and you eat bnb. dash interupts cages pressure is my biggest thing. there is know way its even, to thtb it was a 7-3 match up first month, i didnt even play this game first month, you have to admit reptile has a slight advantage to good reptiles.

This isnt the place to talk about this, but every character in the game can interrupt jcs pressure. the difference is other characters dont have to use a special that is full combo punish on block, they can use like a d3. The risk reward is in your favor there against reptile. The only thing that worries me in the reptile mu is how he can control space w ex slow fb but mayb thats just me. Reptile may have a slight adv, but its very very winnable regardless.

 

[Altaire]

Fifty characters better than Kabal:

1. Vanilla MK3 Kabal
2. MKT Noob Saibot
3. Goro
4. MK1 Sonya
5. ST Old Sagat
6. Tekken 4 Jin
7. Third Strike Chun-Li
8. MK9 1.0 Kung Lao
9. Tekken 3 Eddie Gordo
10. Omega Rugal
11. KoF98 Krauser
12. SCII Kilik
13. SCIII CPU-Controlled Setsuka
14. Gill
15. Shao Kahn
16. The Dude with a gun in the Bushido Blade games
17. The other dude with a gun in Samurai Shodown Sen
18. MvC2 Cable
19. Vanilla MvC3 Wolverine
20. Gold Johnny
21. Krizalid
22. Third Strike Yun
23. SF4AE Yun
24. CvS2 Blanka
25. Igniz
26. Zankuro
27. All of the broken crap characters in MUGEN
28. MvC1 Wolverine
29. XMenVsSF Cyclops
30. MSH Dr. Doom
31. Gold Sol-Badguy
32. Unlimited Mu-12
33. Goenitz
34. MKD Dairou
35. MK4 Tanya
36. Green Lantern
37. Bo Jackson in Tecmo Bowl
38. Shin Akuma
39. Motaro
40. Jon "Bones" Jones
41. SF1 Sagat
42. The Flash
43. Meta Knight
44. Tekken 5 Heihachi
45. GGX2 Eddie
46. Vanilla KoFXIII K'
47. SCIV Hilde
48. MvC2 Magneto
49. The Giant Ape Characters in DBZ Budokai Tenkaichi 3
50. HCTP Brock Lesnar

Why are Hilde and Marvel 2 Magneto not higher on this list? Why is Marvel 3 Wolverine ahead of vanilla Marvel 3 Sentinel? Hell, Why is Marvel 2 Sentinel not on the list, when he's even worse than that? Why is Marvel 1 Wolverine on the list when Marvel 1 War Machine? Why is 3S Chun Li ahead of 3S Ken, who is arguably the best character in the game? Hell, why is Old Sagat ahead of ST Akuma, who is like the Street Fighter equivalent of Satan?

Also, probably subject to debate, but I think Unlimited Nu was a hell of a lot more retarded than Unlimited Mu. That was some SNK shit.

Oh, and you left out Ivan Ooze, who may be the most obnoxiously broken character in any fighting game. I mean, that's just fundamentally bad game design, though he wasn't meant to be playable either.

EDIT: And since I just noticed this, why is vanilla Lao on the list without bomb trap Cyrax?

 

[NogunYesknife]

Just when I thought Altaire's arguments couldn't get any more pointless.

 

[gdf]

flavor of the month, that's all this is. One month people rag on one character being too good until they find something else to complain about. Wasn't it everyone hate on Sonya before all this Cage use at MLG? Before that it was, omg Smoke reset is broken ect.

What are you talking about I still hate Sonya. trollface.jpg

 

[RampaginDragon]

look who the PLAYERS use its cage and sonya all day....and then ppl talk abt jax this and that. if jax is so damn good USE HIM

lolwut. People do USE HIM. A lot of people USE HIM. Just because a bunch of people use a fighter dosnt mean that their the best. More people using a fighter dosnt mean the fighter is better.

Top 3 no order Kabal, Jax, Smoke. But like I always say. I dont belive there is a definet top 3 ect. ect. Many fighters have the potential to be top 10 and more than 3 to be top 3.