MK9: Unofficial Tier List Speculation, and/or Character Shenanigans Discussion!

[Juggs]

What does the S in S tier stand for?

It's irrelevant, it's just above A+. I guess it could stand for "Super Tier", lol.

 

[R.E.L.]

Quoted for truth. Sub's not easy to play. And Brady has a sick Sub, hiding or not. It's a strategy, and certainly not a wrong one.

I agree. Sub is VERY tricky to play, especially against certain matchups. Overall I thought Tom did a great job playing and demonstrating great knowledge of game mechanics. I'm really excited to play him and other TYM members at future events (PDP/Revelations/EVO). I hope he and I can do some commentary together while at PDP if spooky lets us.

Also, props for using Cage against Lao. Tom plays similar to my style, so I was rooting for him (sorry PL, nothing personal lol).

 

[R.E.L.]

Also that being said, EVERYONE from TYM did a fantastic job at PowerUP! Great way to represent and show that the MK community is strong!

 

[Sequel]

Well I guess Tom Brady's been playing Sub wrong this whole time. Every match he's played Saturday he's been hiding behind the clone.

Last night I played against Chago/Shoryuken's sub. I can see where Raiden has some trouble, but I was able to figure out ways to bait and counter. Sub is top 4/5, but not top on the tier list.

Tom - if you have time later, PM me. I'd love to discuss with you. Great playing and reads also at PU and your commentary is solid.

He wasn't hiding behind it - he was setting up his opponent. The difference is people who are doing it wrong NEVER rush and always throw out clone and turtle. Tom was rushing and throwing out clone either after a block string or in corner or when trying to bait his opponent (and rush in to throw/combo).

If Tom only threw out clone, hid, waited, threw out clone, hid, rinse repeat without ever rushing or setting up frame traps then I would have said he was hiding and not playing a COMPLETE SUB.

 

[R.E.L.]

He wasn't hiding behind it - he was setting up his opponent. The difference is people who are doing it wrong NEVER rush and always throw out clone and turtle. Tom was rushing and throwing out clone either after a block string or in corner or when trying to bait his opponent (and rush in to throw/combo).

If Tom only threw out clone, hid, waited, threw out clone, hid, rinse repeat without ever rushing or setting up frame traps then I would have said he was hiding and not playing a COMPLETE SUB.

He was hiding 80% of the time. There was hardly any "rush". If you want to call moving a little forward to bait someone into an ice statue a rush, then you don't understand what "rush that shit down" means. Now when Tom played Cage, that was a different story. That my friend, is rushing.

Either way, he played very well and I was surprised that PL didn't take the whole thing.

 

[Tom Brady]

with sub i can go punch for punch with any character in the game. the truth is that i had a lot of hype coming in and it got me a little nervous because for the first time in like 10 years i felt a lot of pressure to deliver. because of this i played extra extra EXTRA safe, probably too safe in some matches. now that this is out of the way i can relax and play more like my normal self with sub.

 

[tataki]

with sub i can go punch for punch with any character in the game. the truth is that i had a lot of hype coming in and it got me a little nervous because for the first time in like 10 years i felt a lot of pressure to deliver. because of this i played extra extra EXTRA safe, probably too safe in some matches. now that this is out of the way i can relax and play more like my normal self with sub.

Can you punish KL's spin with a dash 22 or not? You seemed to be going for it every time vs perfect legend but it was always blocked.

 

[Sequel]

He was hiding 80% of the time. There was hardly any "rush". If you want to call moving a little forward to bait someone into an ice statue a rush, then you don't understand what "rush that shit down" means. Now when Tom played Cage, that was a different story. That my friend, is rushing.

Either way, he played very well and I was surprised that PL didn't take the whole thing.

Don't patronize me. I know what the term means and it has been misunderstood and abused by a lot of players. Tom claims he was nervous and so he was in fact playing it safe yet I still don't consider that hiding. Most Sub's hide and that's it. They don't understand the mind games nor the bait/setups. They think it's just as simple as throwing out a clone and hoping their opponent will run into it.

Valle rushes shit down when the time is right. He plays solid footsies more so than anything. He doesn't start the match rushing non-stop. Therein lies the difference.

 

[Dark_Rob]

with sub i can go punch for punch with any character in the game. the truth is that i had a lot of hype coming in and it got me a little nervous because for the first time in like 10 years i felt a lot of pressure to deliver. because of this i played extra extra EXTRA safe, probably too safe in some matches. now that this is out of the way i can relax and play more like my normal self with sub.

Tom Im sure you had a lot of pressure going in. Nevertheless you delivered the goods hard. No lie, your sub zero made my jaw hit the floor. Youve renewed my faith in SubZero.

 

[Tom Brady]

Can you punish KL's spin with a dash 22 or not? You seemed to be going for it every time vs perfect legend but it was always blocked.

yes, and i get this almost every time. just didnt execute as well as usual in some moments today.

 

[Combo_Knight]

Did power up give Mk9 much stream time? I'd like to see Tom's cage at work.

 

[Infiny]

To my mind


Tiers S :
Kung Lao, Nightwolf, Shang Tsung, Ermac, Smoke, Raiden, Liu Kang, Cage

Tiers A :
Sub-0, Scorpion, Sektor, Jade,Mileena, Sonya

Tiers B :
Noob, Sindel, Kitana, Striker, CYber Sub-0, Cyrax, Reptile, Kratos, Jax, Kabal

Tiers C :
Quan CHi, Sheeva, kano

 

[Sully]

I don't know enough for specifics there Infiny, but I'll tell you right now that's got to be one the stranger lists I've seen. I'd be interested in specific character analysis of WHY a given character is in a specific tier. Also, I find it personally offensive that you would put Kano in the bottom tier, when he's nothing short of a stupendous badass and a total personal favorite of mine. You take it back right now!

 

[Eazail]

Tom Im sure you had a lot of pressure going in. Nevertheless you delivered the goods hard. No lie, your sub zero made my jaw hit the floor. Youve renewed my faith in SubZero.

Glad to see people having faith in Subzero now. I've been using him (obviously lol) and he is really good. Even back during the demo I felt Subzero was a force to reckon with.

Also, I don't even find him difficult to use. Maybe at first before I learned his strengths but now I feel most comfortable using him. You just feel like you are in total control sometimes using him.

 

[noobharvester]

Brady, from a newcomer;

I played Subzero exclusively during the demo and a bit online before PSN went down. The second it went down I began experimenting other classes and found Reptile as another favorite of mine.

I read a ton of info about these two and learned many many combos, mostly for Reptile since I knew most of Subs. Then I stumbled upon a thread of yours called "Ask Brady" and damn did you ever build up Sub to be the best shit ever and I had a hard time understanding it until I saw the stream.

Excellent job in delivering in on the hype for Sub. Most excellent. You also make the playstyle look damn baby-easy and it sure as hell is not lol! The clone does not stay up long but you make it look like it never goes away haha. Can't wait to see more of you in tournaments.

 

[water]

What does the S in S tier stand for?

Not sure what "S" stands for; maybe super or superior or something like that. It usually means that the character is actually broken, is almost broken, or shouldn't lose against evenly skilled competition. IE: ST Akuma is Broken; GGXX Eddie is almost broken; SF3:TS and SF4:AE Yun shouldn't lose, etc. Even then, there are sometimes lower tiered characters that have good matchups against these elite, but maybe poor matchups against others in the cast which is why they are not considered S themselves.

IMO S class should be reserved for these cases; not for games that are fairly balanced and there is no clear elite.

Did power up give Mk9 much stream time? I'd like to see Tom's cage at work.

Power Up stream covered MK9 VERY well! Watch NOW. Below are players to that really showcased nice fundamental skills and great specific character usage:
Tom's Cage/SubZero, PerfectLegend's KungLao/LiuKang, REO's CyberSub/Kabal, THTB's Reptile

 

[Infiny]

I don't know enough for specifics there Infiny, but I'll tell you right now that's got to be one the stranger lists I've seen. I'd be interested in specific character analysis of WHY a given character is in a specific tier. Also, I find it personally offensive that you would put Kano in the bottom tier, when he's nothing short of a stupendous badass and a total personal favorite of mine. You take it back right now!

OK ... so

I looked the priority in games and the possibility of combos

 

[Eshi]

The S in S tier does not stand for anything. That's like asking what the A or B or C stand for. They don't stand for anything, they're just grades. Now if you're asking WHY S tier is above A tier, it's a japanese thing.

I really don't understand why everyone thinks so highly of sub zero. He looks so average to me. He has strong tools but nothing that looks top-tier gross. I hope people aren't saying that just because tom brady plays him.

 

[Lady Death]

Gonna contribute to the S tier discussion a little here. Water has it down, a tier list overall is about matchups mainly, and other things are then taken into account. S tiers, usually, have great matchups all over the place.

However, this may have changed overtime, I dunno. But this is what I know.

 

[water]

Disclaimer:

Spoiler

I'm a noob. Game is still VERY new. This is all based on information that I have read/discussed/experienced so far. I'm probably VERY wrong. Wall of text.

This is the MK9: UnofficialTier List Speculation Thread.

Please Do NOT flame; do NOT take this too seriously. Relax and have fun with it.
Please DO add constructive information/criticism. Characters WILL shift with emergent tech/gameplay/info.

Recap: Imho the tiers right now are hard to define since the game "seems" pretty well balanced for a first print game. The gaps between the different tiers are not that large. ALL characters are at least viable at low to mid level play (probably High level play too). Some will take more work/specialization than others.

Characters within a tier are not listed in any particular order.

********** Tier List: Short & Simple **********

Spoiler

A+: Johnny Cage, Kung Lao, Nightwolf, Raiden, Smoke, Sub-Zero
A: Cyrax, Ermac, Kitana, Liu Kang, Reptile
B+: Cyber Sub-Zero, Jade, Kabal, Kano, Mileena, Noob Saibot, Quan Chi, Scorpion, Sektor, Shang Tsung, Sonya
B: Sindel, Sheeva, Stryker
C: Jax, Baraka

********** Tier List w/ Stats Ratings Breakdown **********
Due to size of post, I moved most of the information to a new Thread:

http://testyourmight.com/forum/showthread.php?4655-Character-Summaries-Pros-Cons

 

[R.E.L.]

Don't patronize me. I know what the term means and it has been misunderstood and abused by a lot of players. Tom claims he was nervous and so he was in fact playing it safe yet I still don't consider that hiding. Most Sub's hide and that's it. They don't understand the mind games nor the bait/setups. They think it's just as simple as throwing out a clone and hoping their opponent will run into it.

Valle rushes shit down when the time is right. He plays solid footsies more so than anything. He doesn't start the match rushing non-stop. Therein lies the difference.

None of my questions were answered this weekend as to why sub-zero is #1 on tier list. While I respect Bill's judgement in being cautious (I think he played Sub fine overall) I did not really see anything "new" with sub-zero this weekend that was supposed to blow my mind to make me think he's #1 on a tier list. I just wanted a clear answer, that's all. I know you know what rushing means. I was just trying to make my point and was a little agitated, so I apologize for sounding condescending and patronizing.

 

[ChAsESaVaGe]

Disclaimer:

Spoiler

I'm a noob. Game is still VERY new. This is all based on information that I have read/discussed/experienced so far. I'm probably VERY wrong. Wall of text.

This is the MK9: UnofficialTier List Speculation Thread.

Please Do NOT flame; do NOT take this too seriously. Relax and have fun with it.
Please DO add constructive information/criticism. Characters WILL shift with emergent tech/gameplay/info.

Recap: Imho the tiers right now are hard to define since the game "seems" pretty well balanced for a first print game. The gaps between the different tiers are not that large. ALL characters are at least viable at low to mid level play (probably High level play too). Some will take more work/specialization than others.

Characters within a tier are not listed in any particular order.

********** Tier List: Short & Simple

Spoiler

A+: Johnny Cage, Kung Lao, Nightwolf, Raiden, Smoke, Sub-Zero
A: Cyrax, Ermac, Kitana, Liu Kang, Reptile
B+: Cyber Sub-Zero, Jade, Kabal, Kano, Mileena, Noob Saibot, Quan Chi, Scorpion, Sektor, Shang Tsung, Sonya
B: Sindel, Sheeva, Stryker
C: Jax, Baraka

********** Tier List w/ Character Analysis.
-------------------------- A+ Tier --------------------------

Spoiler

Johnny Cage

Spoiler

B Combo Damage
A+ Pressure: repeated 21 strings, frame advantage +1 on b4 & f4, fast f3
B Mixup Potential:
A+ Normals: Fast Uppercut, great normal chains.
A Specials: Qcb3=Get off me move. bf4=Fast mid range threat.
Cons: Weak at Long Range.

Kung Lao

Spoiler

A Combo Damage:
A+ Pressure:
B Mixup Potential:
A Normals:
A+ Specials:
Cons: Lack of Overhead Threats.

Nightwolf

Spoiler

A Combo Damage:
A Pressure:
B Mixup Potential:
A Normals:
A Specials:
Cons:

Raiden

Spoiler

A Combo Damage:
A Pressure:
B Mixup Potential:
A Normals:
A Specials: bf3=Speed Kills, DU=Raiden
Cons:

Smoke

Spoiler

A+ Combo Damage:
B Pressure:
A Mixup Potential:
B Normals:
A Specials:
Cons:

Sub-Zero

Spoiler

B Combo Damage:
B Pressure:
C Mixup Potential:
A Normals:
A+ Specials:
Cons:

-------------------------- A Tier --------------------------

Spoiler

Cyrax

Spoiler

A+ Combo Damage:
B Pressure:
A Mixup Potential: Safe Overhead b2; Throw b1,2,1,2; Mid 3,3~bb3.
B Normals:
A Specials: Net has huge hitbox for a capture projectile. Bomb Setups.
Cons: Few tools to deal with Pressure.

Ermac

Spoiler

A Combo Damage:
B Pressure:
C Mixup Potential:
B Normals:
A Specials: bf1 & qcb1 = Great Mid-Ranged Zone control & Great Punsishers
Cons: Few tools to deal with Pressure.

Kitana

Spoiler

A+ Combo Damage:
B Pressure:
C Mixup Potential:
A Normals:
A Specials:
Cons: Few tools to deal with Pressure.

Liu Kang

Spoiler

B Combo Damage:
A+ Pressure:
A+ Mixup Potential:
A+ Normals:
B Specials:
Cons: Few tools to deal with Pressure.

Reptile

Spoiler

A Combo Damage:
B Pressure:
A Mixup Potential:
B Normals:
A Specials: bf2 & bf4= FAST. Great Projectiles.
Cons:

-------------------------- B+ Tier --------------------------

Spoiler

Cyber Sub-Zero

Spoiler

C Combo Damage:
B Pressure:
B Mixup Potential: Medium reward/Low risk Overhead/Low Mixups.
B Normals:
B Specials: DiveKicks for Anti-Zoning, relatively safe Mobility, Pressure, Air Control.
Cons: Lacks High Damage potential.

Jade

Spoiler

A Combo Damage:
B Pressure:
C Mixup Potential:
B Normals:
A Specials: Anti Projectile Glow, Good projectiles, Fast Shadow Kick. EX Glow=Beast mode.
Cons: Lack of Mixups.

Kabal

Spoiler

C Combo Damage:
APressure:
A Mixup Potential:
B Normals:
B Specials:
Cons:

Kano

Spoiler

B Combo Damage:
B Pressure:
C Mixup Potential:
B Normals:
A Specials:
Cons:

Mileena

Spoiler

B Combo Damage:
B Pressure:
A Mixup Potential: Low Risk/Low Reward AND High Risk/Medium Reward mixups.
B Normals:
B Specials:
Cons:

Noob Saibot

Spoiler

D Combo Damage:
B Pressure: Ranged Pressure with Zoning
C Mixup Potential:
B Normals:
A Specials:
Cons: Low Damage Output

Quan Chi

Spoiler

A Combo Damage: Needs Meter for EX Rune Trap.
C Pressure:
B Mixup Potential:
B Normals:
B Specials:
Cons: Few tools to deal with Pressure.

Scorpion

Spoiler

B Combo Damage:
B Pressure:
B Mixup Potential:
B Normals:
A Specials:
Cons:

Sektor

Spoiler

A Combo Damage:
B Pressure:
B Mixup Potential:
B Normals:
B Specials:
Cons: Needs meter for damaging EX Combos.

Shang Tsung:

Spoiler

B Combo Damage:
B Pressure:
A Mixup Potential:
B Normals:
B Specials:
Cons: Few tools to deal with Pressure.

Sonya

Spoiler

B Combo Damage:
A+ Pressure: Since it leads to Block Infinite, Military Stance will probably be patched.
B Mixup Potential:
A Normals:
B Specials:
Cons:

-------------------------- B Tier --------------------------

Spoiler

Sindel:

Spoiler

B Combo Damage:
B Pressure:
C Mixup Potential:
B Normals:
B Specials: Zoning fireballs.
Cons: Weak against Anti-Zoners.

Sheeva

Spoiler

B Combo Damage:
C Pressure:
B Mixup Potential:
B Normals:
C Specials:
Cons: Trouble against Zoners.

Stryker:

Spoiler

B Combo Damage:
B Pressure:
C Mixup Potential:
B Normals:
B Specials:
Cons:

-------------------------- C Tier --------------------------

Spoiler

Jax

Spoiler

C Combo Damage:
B Pressure:
C Mixup Potential:
B Normals:
C Specials:
Cons:

Baraka

Spoiler

C Combo Damage:
B Pressure:
C Mixup Potential:
B Normals:
C Specials:
Cons: He doesn't have any unique or overpowering tools.

I thought this list was quite good....The only thing id change is Kitana's pressure rating which imo should be higher....and possibly Scorpion's combo damage which can be quite high.. id only change it to B+ maybe A.
Awesome list man.

 

[water]

None of my questions were answered this weekend as to why sub-zero is #1 on tier list. While I respect Bill's judgement in being cautious (I think he played Sub fine overall) I did not really see anything "new" with sub-zero this weekend that was supposed to blow my mind to make me think he's #1 on a tier list. I just wanted a clear answer, that's all. I know you know what rushing means. I was just trying to make my point and was a little agitated, so I apologize for sounding condescending and patronizing.

Snip from my list above:
(Sub's Ice Clone) qcb1=source of his pressure. Unlike the constant string rushdown of others, Sub's pressure is Zone control related. He can simply cutoff so many options by putting this in your space (especially in corner).

Tom Brady didn't do anything revolutionary this weekend @PowerUp with Sub-Zero. The concept sounds simple: use Ice Clone and make them deal with it. However in practice, the placement and timing of the move differentiates a solid player and a spammer. This is why it is difficult to see what he was doing. He was playing very, very safe Sub-Zero Zone control by baiting (almost forcing) mistakes from opponents.

In certain matchups Sub-Zero takes alot of patience and reading the opponent to be successful. He doesn't have the insane damage output or rushdown that other top tier characters have, but he probably has the least bad matchups and obvious weaknesses.

Is Sub-Zero number definitely #1? That is highly debatable, which brings us back to this thread and discussion repeatedly.

I thought this list was quite good....The only thing id change is Kitana's pressure rating which imo should be higher....and possibly Scorpion's combo damage which can be quite high.. id only change it to B+ maybe A.
Awesome list man.

Could you give us a few examples (link to video, or notated examples/threads) of Kitana pressure and Scorpion damage that I can use to edit my post? Thanks for the input!

For the Combo Damage stats ratings, I take into account maximum damage, meter usage and how often it is actually usable in a real match. These are loose guidelines based on my limited understanding of each character's practical damage potential.

Combo Damage Ratings
A+ 40-50 consistently. 50+ w/1 meter or corner
A 35-40 consistently. 40-50 w/1 meter or corner. cannot reallistically break 50 w/o Xray
B 30-35 consistently. 35-40 w/1 meter or corner. cannot reallistically break 40 w/o Xray
C 25-30 consistently. 30-40 w/1 meter or corner. cannot reallistically break 40 w/o Xray
D 20-25 consistently. 25-40 w/1 meter or corner. cannot reallistically break 40 w/o Xray

I will add this to my previous post.

 

[ChAsESaVaGe]

Snip from my list above:
(Sub's Ice Clone) qcb1=source of his pressure. Unlike the constant string rushdown of others, Sub's pressure is Zone control related. He can simply cutoff so many options by putting this in your space (especially in corner).

Tom Brady didn't do anything revolutionary this weekend @PowerUp with Sub-Zero. The concept sounds simple: use Ice Clone and make them deal with it. However in practice, the placement and timing of the move differentiates a solid player and a spammer. This is why it is difficult to see what he was doing. He was playing very, very safe Sub-Zero Zone control by baiting (almost forcing) mistakes from opponents.

In certain matchups Sub-Zero takes alot of patience and reading the opponent to be successful. He doesn't have the insane damage output or rushdown that other top tier characters have, but he probably has the least bad matchups and obvious weaknesses.

Is Sub-Zero number definitely #1? That is highly debatable, which brings us back to this thread and discussion repeatedly.


Could you give us a few examples (link to video, or notated examples/threads) of Kitana pressure and Scorpion damage that I can use to edit my post? Thanks for the input!

For the Combo Damage stats ratings, I take into account maximum damage, meter usage and how often it is actually usable in a real match. These are loose guidelines based on my limited understanding of each character's practical damage potential.

Combo Damage Ratings
A+ 40-50 consistently. 50+ w/1 meter or corner
A 35-40 consistently. 40-50 w/1 meter or corner. cannot reallistically break 50 w/o Xray
B 30-35 consistently. 35-40 w/1 meter or corner. cannot reallistically break 40 w/o Xray
C 25-30 consistently. 30-40 w/1 meter or corner. cannot reallistically break 40 w/o Xray
D 20-25 consistently. 25-40 w/1 meter or corner. cannot reallistically break 40 w/o Xray

I will add this to my previous post.

Wish I could lol...Im at work so my internet access is very limited.
Scorpion I was really just speaking from what ive seen done with him in the right hands...I could be wrong though.
As for Kitana I was saying that because of the way combofiend was using her at powerup....seemed to me like pressure was one of her strong suits.

 

[MKF30]

I never said Ermac was 11 (if u are referring to my post). The tiers i posted aren't in order as i said aswell, ermac is def A+ / S, but i gotte give the Top 5 to: Kung Lao - Raiden - Sub zero - Nightwolf - Smoke (Again, NOT in that order, just top 5 overall). Maybe i should've put Ermac in S instead of Sindel though...

I don't believe it was you that said that, someone had Ermac lower or 11 which definitely isn't the case.

At any rate, Ermac is a top tier for sure. Ermac is up there with Smoke as far as I'm concerned. Sindel is good too but not sure if I'd put her with Ermac, she's tricky but seems to be better from a far with her fire ball mix ups. At least judging off of Dancock playing her, he's been the best Sindel I've played so far.