Sub-Zero General Discussion

[OldManFGC]

Some more sub stuff (again not 100% sure if this is new patch only or just not really seen/talked about)

3 xx vapors now combos midscreen into:
f1,2 (tight)
2,1
3,4
b3,4
b4

and in the corner all of the above are easier, along with-
4,4 (tight)
1,2
d2

Of course if this didn't already exist when the fuck you'd ever 3 xx vapors is a damn good question. Probably only some weird edge case 10 frame only punish where for some reason you didn't want 2,1? I guess this gives you a way to get into b3,4 mid screen for a launcher for kameo's like mavado, but fuck i'm stretching here...

Also as someone who dipped for awhile there and just does not have the mental stack for Khameleon/Tremor, who's the next best kameo?

I rocked goro on launch but came to the conclusion that sub's kit is so lackluster without a kameo he just cannot afford to have someone who takes a week and a half to recharge. I assume sonja/kano/sareena are still fine. Anyone i'm missing?

If you're not playing Khameleon, Janet, Sonya, or Ferra is best. Janet for meterless slide combos and armored slide combos, Sonya for zoning, armored slide combos, and (basically) safe 50/50s, or Ferra for some mix, extra health, buff (as that video shows), and a comboable throw.

 

[Eji1700]

Just blowing off some steam:
I'm still in training mode right now trying to get my muscle memory back, but playing sub again reminds me once again how undercooked he feels.

1. His core identity of "DO NOT ATTEMPT TO TRADE WITH THIS CHARACTER" is just neutered. Slide isn't going under anything reliably and ice ball isn't hitting anyone between the startup and kameos blocking it. IF you somehow hit the iceball it's probably a trade, and by the time you're done recovering you'll get a slide at best. It just blows my mind that he requires a kameo to have any fullscreen presence.

2. Deadly vapors is a super interesting concept, and yet I feel it rarely matters. There's some neat stuff to punish armored wakeups and the like, but often this unique move is relegated to combo extension.

3. Clone into slide into combo is one of my favorite things and I hate that it not only costs 2 bars to do, but also fucking blows.

It's extra weird that he's got his legs broken so badly, because it's not like counter zoning would be extremely strong in this game anyways. It seems that with the recent DLC characters having way more complete kits, and the recent path, they're moving towards giving characters a full kit at base so they have more choices in kameos, and I really hope that's the case. Still I think sub is going to need a bit more, and I hope it's in fixing some of the above rather than just making him also decent at being a blender (not that I don't love me some clone corner jail).

There's probably a lot of likely buffs, but I'd love if sub got his MK9 EX ice beam back and it pierced kameos, allowing you to freeze people for bad calls/catch jumps. I doubt that's ever going to happen for a lot of reasons, but god would it do wonders for his identity.

Edit-
And while i'm whinging, shujinko can combo into ice ball? Like i get it from a balance perspective but come on.

Oh and I forgot: WORST OF ALL WE HAVE SHIT BRUTALS.

Slide and the combo are fine, but they're all you ever see.

Punch rarely happens, and who the hell is landing ice ball with those conditions?, Both have the same issue D2 had where the physics don't feel right, because they're just "spawning" in the pieces and letting them fall, rather than inheriting the inertia of the hit that should send their torso/parts flying.

Vapors also feels lackluster since their lower body just vanishes. Having it freeze then shatter would give it more impact.

 

[OldManFGC]

Just blowing off some steam:
I'm still in training mode right now trying to get my muscle memory back, but playing sub again reminds me once again how undercooked he feels.

1. His core identity of "DO NOT ATTEMPT TO TRADE WITH THIS CHARACTER" is just neutered. Slide isn't going under anything reliably and ice ball isn't hitting anyone between the startup and kameos blocking it. IF you somehow hit the iceball it's probably a trade, and by the time you're done recovering you'll get a slide at best. It just blows my mind that he requires a kameo to have any fullscreen presence.

2. Deadly vapors is a super interesting concept, and yet I feel it rarely matters. There's some neat stuff to punish armored wakeups and the like, but often this unique move is relegated to combo extension.

3. Clone into slide into combo is one of my favorite things and I hate that it not only costs 2 bars to do, but also fucking blows.

It's extra weird that he's got his legs broken so badly, because it's not like counter zoning would be extremely strong in this game anyways. It seems that with the recent DLC characters having way more complete kits, and the recent path, they're moving towards giving characters a full kit at base so they have more choices in kameos, and I really hope that's the case. Still I think sub is going to need a bit more, and I hope it's in fixing some of the above rather than just making him also decent at being a blender (not that I don't love me some clone corner jail).

There's probably a lot of likely buffs, but I'd love if sub got his MK9 EX ice beam back and it pierced kameos, allowing you to freeze people for bad calls/catch jumps. I doubt that's ever going to happen for a lot of reasons, but god would it do wonders for his identity.

Edit-
And while i'm whinging, shujinko can combo into ice ball? Like i get it from a balance perspective but come on.

Oh and I forgot: WORST OF ALL WE HAVE SHIT BRUTALS.

Slide and the combo are fine, but they're all you ever see.

Punch rarely happens, and who the hell is landing ice ball with those conditions?, Both have the same issue D2 had where the physics don't feel right, because they're just "spawning" in the pieces and letting them fall, rather than inheriting the inertia of the hit that should send their torso/parts flying.

Vapors also feels lackluster since their lower body just vanishes. Having it freeze then shatter would give it more impact.

His brutals really do suck. And I agree it's unfortunate that the only way he's really viable is with mix. Like sure, that can be one of his identities, I suppose, but his only one? Bleh.

 

[ConeOnBricks]

PSA that the Sub/Cyrax confirms are mad easy after the last patch. Now that you can designate which side you throw the opponent you don't get slot machine confirms which makes the team wicked strong. Definitely his best team for certain matchups where he can reliably slide punish important tools on reaction. He gets 480 off a raw slide for one bar, half kameo gauge, and fatal blow which I've used first hand for insane robbery potential. He's also got that Liu/Lao throw combo into looping oki going on which is obviously solid. Armored launcher too. For midscreen slide confirms you wanna call Cyrax neutral kameo during the point in the slide animation where sub actively raises the impaled opponent overhead. For the grab confirms you wanna call Cyrax up kameo at the point in the throw animation just after sub's ice beam disappears and stops freezing the opponent. The launch off ex slide is pretty lenient just make sure to call up kameo instead of neutral kameo.

 

[mrapchem]

PSA that the Sub/Cyrax confirms are mad easy after the last patch. Now that you can designate which side you throw the opponent you don't get slot machine confirms which makes the team wicked strong. Definitely his best team for certain matchups where he can reliably slide punish important tools on reaction. He gets 480 off a raw slide for one bar, half kameo gauge, and fatal blow which I've used first hand for insane robbery potential. He's also got that Liu/Lao throw combo into looping oki going on which is obviously solid. Armored launcher too. For midscreen slide confirms you wanna call Cyrax neutral kameo during the point in the slide animation where sub actively raises the impaled opponent overhead. For the grab confirms you wanna call Cyrax up kameo at the point in the throw animation just after sub's ice beam disappears and stops freezing the opponent. The launch off ex slide is pretty lenient just make sure to call up kameo instead of neutral kameo.

Have you got some gameplay of all this in action? I'd love to see this!

 

[ConeOnBricks]

Have you got some gameplay of all this in action? I'd love to see this!

Haven't ever recorded my sets but I could definitely start. I'll see if I can get some recording software and maybe some decent enough gameplay next weekend

 

[OldManFGC]

PSA that the Sub/Cyrax confirms are mad easy after the last patch. Now that you can designate which side you throw the opponent you don't get slot machine confirms which makes the team wicked strong. Definitely his best team for certain matchups where he can reliably slide punish important tools on reaction. He gets 480 off a raw slide for one bar, half kameo gauge, and fatal blow which I've used first hand for insane robbery potential. He's also got that Liu/Lao throw combo into looping oki going on which is obviously solid. Armored launcher too. For midscreen slide confirms you wanna call Cyrax neutral kameo during the point in the slide animation where sub actively raises the impaled opponent overhead. For the grab confirms you wanna call Cyrax up kameo at the point in the throw animation just after sub's ice beam disappears and stops freezing the opponent. The launch off ex slide is pretty lenient just make sure to call up kameo instead of neutral kameo.

The Scorpion confirm got a lot easier after the last patch so it makes sense that Cyrax would, too. Thanks for the heads-up. Will definitely give it a try!

 

[-Sub-Zero-]

I’m a Sub-Zero main. I love the character and the ice shit he does is amazing.

 

[Jynks]

The new ability to do many freezes in the one combo and calling kameos midslide is epic

23:30 - Don't Hang Up | Ghostface Joins MK1 Kombat Kast

 

[Krasiox]

Mavado is going to be an option for him now

 

[BlazingShrapnel]

Mavado is going to be an option for him now

I'd argue it's been an option for him the whole time, but now it's absolutely better. I've been running it since June, and after the buff making f123 safe it's my favorite kameo for him. Current meterless slide allows you to time Mavado's down kameo to either hit and combo slide before slide ends or condition them to block low after slide and hit them with b2.

Excited to see how long the triple klones last. You can already pull someone into an ex klone with Mavado's back kameo, if these last long enough, slide side switching could create some shenanigans lol

 

[Eji1700]

The main things I see from this are-

1. The hyper risky yolo slide stuff is now easier to convert into kameo's and should open up sub's options.
2. The ex 3 clone layout has changed which should stop most armor punishes. They should hit 2 clones before sub, and thus get frozen.

Edit-

More thoughts-

1. full screen slide conversions from a freeze should now be easier to convert into reasonable damage without locking you into only a few kameos.
2. Combo swag goes up by 2 points. Seriously clone into slide into combo is one of the main things I love doing with sub, and having it be something you can just fucking do (for 1 bar assuming base clone is still too slow) is nice.
3. I wonder if something like 2, 1 xx slide xx kameo now becomes the standard combo route rather than just 2, 1, kameo

 

[OldManFGC]

Yeah, more kameo options for sure, but also not needing to change kameos based on MU as much. Sonya should let you do basically everything now.

 

[Eji1700]

Yeah, more kameo options for sure, but also not needing to change kameos based on MU as much. Sonya should let you do basically everything now.

I don’t actually hate that aspect and think the game would be healthier if we saw more of that ( which is ironic since kameo sub is probably the most common example and the one I hate)

 

[OldManFGC]

I don’t actually hate that aspect and think the game would be healthier if we saw more of that ( which is ironic since kameo sub is probably the most common example and the one I hate)

Honestly, I liked part of Sub's identity being that he needed to swap kameos based on MU. Made him feel unique compared to a lot of other characters. But, I'm sure people are going to love being able to slide combo all over the place, so the change is probably best for the health of the Sub player base even if it's not something I would have chosen for him.

 

[OldManFGC]

Whelp! That patch gave me everything I could have wanted for Sub + Scorpion. How's everyone else doing?

 

[Eji1700]

Whelp! That patch gave me everything I could have wanted for Sub + Scorpion. How's everyone else doing?

Grumpy because my work and personal life will be on constant "fuck you" mode until probably after thanksgiving so I've had 0 time to touch the game.

Hoping to get some time this weekend and otherwise living vicariously through the rest of you via footage.

Even if he was somehow worse, I'm just happy that his combos look so much better.

Beyond that I'll be trying kano/sonja/goro again. I'm especially interested in kano since I think he can convert the yolo slide now and might actually cover it on block. Still feel like sonja's going to be a must if you want to have a fullscreen option though vs someone like sindel/baraka.

Edit-

That said i'll dump what I've seen here:

1. mrAPchem doing his usual service and showing off shit. Normal clone/1EX clone actually being there long enough to set shit up is just wonderful and just scanning through his vids I've already seen a bunch of shit I would never have thought to try . Big one was EX clone will now combo from dash up backthrow which is niiiiice.

2. Saw at least one Sub round where they used F1, 2 xx 1bar triple clone into serena at their feet for meter gain with a wall in front of them. She easily makes back the 1 bar spent to create the space, and it seems like a lot less moves will punish on reaction (i still want to lab this/see it lab'd with ex shadow kick to confirm).

3. Lots more j3 xx clone going around. I suspect it's just as unsafe as always, but the fact the clone stays out there longer means you can actually control space off it rather than just watch them jump at you when you land.

4. Plenty of concern about the death of F1,2, clone in the corner, which I'm really not sure is that founded. Yes his damage from his mid is now nerfed to shit (need to do meterless vapor, 1, 2, clone after for all the scaling) but god you gain so much elsewhere it seems worth it.

5. I still don't think I've seen enough people internalizing hit confirm slide instead of EX vapors to know how much it changes the game. It depends a lot on your current kameo situation (especially for the kham players).

6. 1 bar triple clone seems great for combos. The first clone being the short one means it hits and freezes instantly, and then you can go nuts juggling into the other two. Still not sure what the best route is from there, and it's still "sub" damage at only 32-35%, but I think even small gains there actually matter. Sub is very much a "win more interactions" character, so just a bit more damage can help end the round before they get breaker/come back.

7. As i was typing this caught the usual sub corner punish (triple b2) but they went into 4 xx 1 bar triple clone, double dash, 4 xx slide, clone hit, j2, 1 clone hit, j12 drop for 34% for 1 bar and a kameo.

 

[OldManFGC]

Grumpy because my work and personal life will be on constant "fuck you" mode until probably after thanksgiving so I've had 0 time to touch the game.

Hoping to get some time this weekend and otherwise living vicariously through the rest of you via footage.

Even if he was somehow worse, I'm just happy that his combos look so much better.

Beyond that I'll be trying kano/sonja/goro again. I'm especially interested in kano since I think he can convert the yolo slide now and might actually cover it on block. Still feel like sonja's going to be a must if you want to have a fullscreen option though vs someone like sindel/baraka.

Edit-

That said i'll dump what I've seen here:

1. mrAPchem doing his usual service and showing off shit. Normal clone/1EX clone actually being there long enough to set shit up is just wonderful and just scanning through his vids I've already seen a bunch of shit I would never have thought to try . Big one was EX clone will now combo from dash up backthrow which is niiiiice.

2. Saw at least one Sub round where they used F1, 2 xx 1bar triple clone into serena at their feet for meter gain with a wall in front of them. She easily makes back the 1 bar spent to create the space, and it seems like a lot less moves will punish on reaction (i still want to lab this/see it lab'd with ex shadow kick to confirm).

3. Lots more j3 xx clone going around. I suspect it's just as unsafe as always, but the fact the clone stays out there longer means you can actually control space off it rather than just watch them jump at you when you land.

4. Plenty of concern about the death of F1,2, clone in the corner, which I'm really not sure is that founded. Yes his damage from his mid is now nerfed to shit (need to do meterless vapor, 1, 2, clone after for all the scaling) but god you gain so much elsewhere it seems worth it.

5. I still don't think I've seen enough people internalizing hit confirm slide instead of EX vapors to know how much it changes the game. It depends a lot on your current kameo situation (especially for the kham players).

6. 1 bar triple clone seems great for combos. The first clone being the short one means it hits and freezes instantly, and then you can go nuts juggling into the other two. Still not sure what the best route is from there, and it's still "sub" damage at only 32-35%, but I think even small gains there actually matter. Sub is very much a "win more interactions" character, so just a bit more damage can help end the round before they get breaker/come back.

7. As i was typing this caught the usual sub corner punish (triple b2) but they went into 4 xx 1 bar triple clone, double dash, 4 xx slide, clone hit, j2, 1 clone hit, j12 drop for 34% for 1 bar and a kameo.

Ah, that sucks, but thanks for the list! I think there's a lot of good stuff for him now. Couldn't believe he got the ability to do armored spear Slide and I'm over the moon about it.

I know you'll have fun labbing, so hope you get a chance to soon!