MK1 Tier List Discussion Thread

[wsj515]

View attachment 21926

To attempt to salvage this thread, this is my actual opinion. This list is ordered. Willing to discuss, but I'll break down some key points first.

My Top 5 is disgusting. The thing the Top 5 has in common is the ability to totally control the entire screen.

I have Homelander as the best character in the game. He controls the screen with his lasers and stance, has crazy mix ups with Ferra and his stance, and hits pretty hard off most every touch all with insane corner carry.

Sindel is similar to HL, using projectiles and movement to control the pace of the fight. What separates Sindel from the rest of the cast for me is her meterless restand and ability to setup HTB's and other great pressure with it, in conjunction with her great range on her normals and projectile game.

Nitara controls the screen with the threat of Divekick, Air Grab, and obviously, air movement. Nitara has the highest damage in the game, can heal her own health back, and maybe synergizes better with Ferra than anyone on the roster. 33/33/33 mixup off of most touches leading to 500 damage. The only flaws in this character is lower health and lack of safety, but the latter issue can be played around quite easily.

Tanya controls the screen a little differently than the previous three, but she still has the ability to lock you down. One of the best armor moves in the game that can be made safe on block and a pop up, one of the best if not the best mids in the game, several advancing specials that lead to combos, great projectile game, not on the level of the last characters, but pretty aerially mobile and pretty reasonable damage. All of this makes it hard to safely press a button against Tanya.

Johnny has the BEST mid in the game, IMO. There are arguments for Liu's F4, or Tanya's B2, but for my Money you gotta look at that knee. Fastest non-poke mid in the game, 10f armor move, plus frames off normals for days. Literally insane movement speed, great range and utility to normals, a restand, easy and good damage conversions, unblockable and cancellable Fatal Blow, best gimmick in the game with Star Power, just an absurd character design compared to a LOT of the cast.

The "Extremely Good," tier all have some area of the game they excel in.

The "Viable," tier is pretty much your average character. What they do well doesn't feel THAT strong or has pretty strong counterplay.

The "Some Bad MUs," tier is the characters that I feel struggle. Either one dimensional game plans, or bad frame data.

Would love to discuss with people.

This is a pretty woke tierlist overall, I particularly like how high Sub and PM are, and how low Rain is - I think he might be one of the most overrated characters in the game. Bottom 10 seems really low for him just with b3 alone since its such a good button, but overall the cast is all really good / pretty close, so I don't think its crazy. I can't see Li Mei being better than Mileena, Shao, Ermac - its likely Shao should be much higher, though maybe something has changed since kham nerfs but I don't see it.

Of course, main point of contention is Kenshi is still just way too high. Yeah sento is nuts but he has just as many bad MUs as the Bad MUs tier, if not more in some cases imo - with his saving grace being he can rob anyone at any time with sento.

 

[ImpostorOak]

This is a pretty woke tierlist overall, I particularly like how high Sub and PM are, and how low Rain is - I think he might be one of the most overrated characters in the game. Bottom 10 seems really low for him just with b3 alone since its such a good button, but overall the cast is all really good / pretty close, so I don't think its crazy. I can't see Li Mei being better than Mileena, Shao, Ermac - its likely Shao should be much higher, though maybe something has changed since kham nerfs but I don't see it.

Of course, main point of contention is Kenshi is still just way too high. Yeah sento is nuts but he has just as many bad MUs as the Bad MUs tier, if not more in some cases imo - with his saving grace is he can rob anyone at any time with sento.

Maybe the characters I play, (Liu, Takeda, Ermac, and Ashrah) all do well against Shao, but I don't see him as that threatening. Maybe higher than I've placed him, but he just seems like a character I can neutral duck and air to air for days. I see his kit and I see strength, but I don't rate him high based on like VGY or anyone, to me they're just insane players. My tierlist is based on my exp mostly and I just don't see Shao as that strong.

Li Mei point is solid, but Shao specifically I'm just not seeing. I could definitely be convinced otherwise, though.

Kenshi is such a hot topic rn. I think his ability to rob is what makes him where I put him. In his worst MU all he needs is one touch. I think Kenshi may be a character that requires different Kameos for each MU. Since I started using Scorpion Kameo with Takeda, I do see how reliable armor gives Kenshi a hard time, but in all honesty it's just not enough to bring him down a notch to me.

But, I know you're a good player and I respect your opinion. If you used my list as an example, where would you put Kenshi? Viable?

 

[wsj515]

Maybe the characters I play, (Liu, Takeda, Ermac, and Ashrah) all do well against Shao, but I don't see him as that threatening. Maybe higher than I've placed him, but he just seems like a character I can neutral duck and air to air for days. I see his kit and I see strength, but I don't rate him high based on like VGY or anyone, to me they're just insane players. My tierlist is based on my exp mostly and I just don't see Shao as that strong.

Li Mei point is solid, but Shao specifically I'm just not seeing. I could definitely be convinced otherwise, though.

Kenshi is such a hot topic rn. I think his ability to rob is what makes him where I put him. In his worst MU all he needs is one touch. I think Kenshi may be a character that requires different Kameos for each MU. Since I started using Scorpion Kameo with Takeda, I do see how reliable armor gives Kenshi a hard time, but in all honesty it's just not enough to bring him down a notch to me.

But, I know you're a good player and I respect your opinion. If you used my list as an example, where would you put Kenshi? Viable?

Not enough people pick Scorpion kameo into Kenshi, it's actually pretty impactful as he has to completely change his approach to sento oki into something way less scary. Its even better on characters not named Takeda where they can choose between Scorpion armor or their own ideally strong armor.

I don't think I'm comfortable dropping him into Viable, probably last of Extremely Good - but I might move Mileena and Shao above him. Since he's such a polar character (both literally in game and in a meta sense) he's extremely hard to rate imo without going through the herculean effort of creating a full on MU chart for the cast like Cease's a few months ago, then just "objectively" ordering each character based on their MU spread.

 

[Baconlord]

View attachment 21926

To attempt to salvage this thread, this is my actual opinion. This list is ordered. Willing to discuss, but I'll break down some key points first.

My Top 5 is disgusting. The thing the Top 5 has in common is the ability to totally control the entire screen.

I have Homelander as the best character in the game. He controls the screen with his lasers and stance, has crazy mix ups with Ferra and his stance, and hits pretty hard off most every touch all with insane corner carry.

Sindel is similar to HL, using projectiles and movement to control the pace of the fight. What separates Sindel from the rest of the cast for me is her meterless restand and ability to setup HTB's and other great pressure with it, in conjunction with her great range on her normals and projectile game.

Nitara controls the screen with the threat of Divekick, Air Grab, and obviously, air movement. Nitara has the highest damage in the game, can heal her own health back, and maybe synergizes better with Ferra than anyone on the roster. 33/33/33 mixup off of most touches leading to 500 damage. The only flaws in this character is lower health and lack of safety, but the latter issue can be played around quite easily.

Tanya controls the screen a little differently than the previous three, but she still has the ability to lock you down. One of the best armor moves in the game that can be made safe on block and a pop up, one of the best if not the best mids in the game, several advancing specials that lead to combos, great projectile game, not on the level of the last characters, but pretty aerially mobile and pretty reasonable damage. All of this makes it hard to safely press a button against Tanya.

Johnny has the BEST mid in the game, IMO. There are arguments for Liu's F4, or Tanya's B2, but for my Money you gotta look at that knee. Fastest non-poke mid in the game, 10f armor move, plus frames off normals for days. Literally insane movement speed, great range and utility to normals, a restand, easy and good damage conversions, unblockable and cancellable Fatal Blow, best gimmick in the game with Star Power, just an absurd character design compared to a LOT of the cast.

The "Extremely Good," tier all have some area of the game they excel in.

The "Viable," tier is pretty much your average character. What they do well doesn't feel THAT strong or has pretty strong counterplay.

The "Some Bad MUs," tier is the characters that I feel struggle. Either one dimensional game plans, or bad frame data.

Would love to discuss with people.

We heavy underrating reptile in this list. Character is mad good right now especially with Mavado. Rain also has way to low. Smoke and pm are mid high imo. Those characters are bottom 3 right now.

 

[ImpostorOak]

We heavy underrating reptile in this list. Character is mad good right now especially with Mavado. Rain also has way to low. Smoke and pm are mid high imo. Those characters are bottom 3 right now.

PM bottom 3? I can see Smoke being that low, but PM seems better than that to me. Curious to hear more on that?

And Reptile and Rain may be worth a second look for me, again this is all based on my exp which is somewhat influenced by me solo maining Takeda since he released.

What's the Reptile Mavado sauce? Sweep combos?

 

[Baconlord]

PM bottom 3? I can see Smoke being that low, but PM seems better than that to me. Curious to hear more on that?

And Reptile and Rain may be worth a second look for me, again this is all based on my exp which is somewhat influenced by me solo maining Takeda since he released.

What's the Reptile Mavado sauce? Sweep combos?

base reptile is just really solid right now. his midscreen game is really oppressive with s3 and b3. his offense is much better since his overhead was made safe and the invis mix got stronger with the charged overhead being plus. Mavado gives him easy throw combos that set up invis and makes his sweep one of the best buttons in the game. With Mavado sweep launches, is safe, and has a ton of pushback on block which lets you reset neutral and put you back in s3 range. Character just has some of the best midscreen tools in the game.

Rain is just b3 go brrrrrrr. b3 is like the unquestionable best button in the game. Rain also has one of the best strike throws because he gets great throw combos with a ton of kameos and 21 is one of the best auto shimmys.

Pm can get some value in matchups where he can just runaway all day but that just gets shut down by sub kameo hard. Eagley being made unsafe also just kills him because he lost his best way to reset neutral so he really struggles to get people off him (his armor getting nerfed hard doesn't help that either). He's just a very one dimensional zoner and he lacks the tools to really force that gameplan on the cast.

 

[kabelfritz]

Pm can get some value in matchups where he can just runaway all day but that just gets shut down by sub kameo hard. Eagley being made unsafe also just kills him because he lost his best way to reset neutral so he really struggles to get people off him (his armor getting nerfed hard doesn't help that either). He's just a very one dimensional zoner and he lacks the tools to really force that gameplan on the cast.

sounds like a case for sektor kameo

 

[Baconlord]

sounds like a case for sektor kameo

pm/sektor is pretty good but it doesn't really solve his problem matchups since it doesn't give him a ton of safety. it just makes him better in the matchups he's already good in.

 

[ImpostorOak]

Just fought a pretty good Reptile/Mavado and yeeeesh. I see. The knockdown mavado slide tech is nuts.

 

[M2Dave]

 

[wsj515]

Kanimani just put this one together

http://imgur.com/a/wjoeC4R

 

[Felipe_Gewehr]

Kanimani just put this one together

http://imgur.com/a/wjoeC4R

Sektor, Ermac, Cyrax and Liu Kang, worse than Shao? Noob bottom 10? I'm not sure of the reasoning behind these placements. Also not sure how I feel about Sub-Zero being the worst character. Everything else I can either agree or see where it is coming from.

 

[Baconlord]

Sektor, Ermac, Cyrax and Liu Kang, worse than Shao? Noob bottom 10? I'm not sure of the reasoning behind these placements. Also not sure how I feel about Sub-Zero being the worst character. Everything else I can either agree or see where it is coming from.

Shao is mad good. Character is in every top 8, has one of the best whiff punishers in the game, and broke mix but people downplay him because his mid is only ok. Cyrax is also mad overated right now. She's good but she's got a bad case of no autoshimmyitis. She's like Kenshi with worse buttons. Noob is also kind of lackluster tbh. Just not dirty enough to be super competitive in this meta.

 

[Felipe_Gewehr]

Shao is mad good. Character is in every top 8, has one of the best whiff punishers in the game, and broke mix but people downplay him because his mid is only ok. Cyrax is also mad overated right now. She's good but she's got a bad case of no autoshimmyitis. She's like Kenshi with worse buttons. Noob is also kind of lackluster tbh. Just not dirty enough to be super competitive in this meta.

Not questioning Shao being good, at all, but compared to these four characters I find it difficult to believe he is better. And about Cyrax, yeah. she's like Kenshi except the spirit would be out 100% of the time - every touch is a 50/50 into loopable vortex, meter drain, full screen projectile that trades, setups for days... you either guess right on a command grab/mid or you are dead. Meanwhile, Shao has to rely on spacing and strike/throw, struggles against zoning and has generally very few setups to speak of (that can't be armored out).

Hard disagree on Noob as well, he pairs well with almost every kameo, lots of 50/50s (further enhanced by kameos), conversions for days and GREAT damage while also having HTB setups with portals, ghostball, slides and his strings. I'd put him AT LEAST where Baraka is on this tier, to be honest.

 

[wsj515]

Not questioning Shao being good, at all, but compared to these four characters I find it difficult to believe he is better. And about Cyrax, yeah. she's like Kenshi except the spirit would be out 100% of the time - every touch is a 50/50 into loopable vortex, meter drain, full screen projectile that trades, setups for days... you either guess right on a command grab/mid or you are dead. Meanwhile, Shao has to rely on spacing and strike/throw, struggles against zoning and has generally very few setups to speak of (that can't be armored out).

Hard disagree on Noob as well, he pairs well with almost every kameo, lots of 50/50s (further enhanced by kameos), conversions for days and GREAT damage while also having HTB setups with portals, ghostball, slides and his strings. I'd put him AT LEAST where Baraka is on this tier, to be honest.

I've also been saying since KR release that Cyrax is worse Kenshi - you have much worse neutral, and if you guess right on the setplay, you're no longer in danger - whereas as long as sento is out, you're in trouble.

Everything baconlord said about Shao is true + the fact that he has high health (which people continue to disregard for no reason - health values are crazy important), and does very well against all the other top tiers is really important.

I need to dig into Noob more but from what I've seen, all of his mix is either reactable or fuzziable.

 

[Eji1700]

Sektor, Ermac, Cyrax and Liu Kang, worse than Shao? Noob bottom 10? I'm not sure of the reasoning behind these placements. Also not sure how I feel about Sub-Zero being the worst character. Everything else I can either agree or see where it is coming from.

Who's worse than sub right now? He's carried by kameo's so he takes the hit when the kameo's get nerfed for being too good with someone else. The only buffs he got, while legit buffs, still don't change the flaws he's got.

 

[LEGEND]

I need to dig into Noob more but from what I've seen, all of his mix is either reactable or fuzziable.

Thats my experience as well. Its only the low reward 50/50s that are unreactable. I have been hit by some goofy portal setups that i haven't went back to lab, but thats still after already getting hit by something. . .

Still though, he has good damage and isn't really lacking anything. Not sure how that equals C tier. Idk anything about current Tanya, but you could probably just move Noob and PM up to B and it would feel more accurate.
-
My hot take is that Li Mei is actually insane. So many things are -7 and she punishes them for 40+%. Alot of mixups and standard strings just become unusable against her, not to mention pokes.

 

[Baconlord]

Not questioning Shao being good, at all, but compared to these four characters I find it difficult to believe he is better. And about Cyrax, yeah. she's like Kenshi except the spirit would be out 100% of the time - every touch is a 50/50 into loopable vortex, meter drain, full screen projectile that trades, setups for days... you either guess right on a command grab/mid or you are dead. Meanwhile, Shao has to rely on spacing and strike/throw, struggles against zoning and has generally very few setups to speak of (that can't be armored out).

Hard disagree on Noob as well, he pairs well with almost every kameo, lots of 50/50s (further enhanced by kameos), conversions for days and GREAT damage while also having HTB setups with portals, ghostball, slides and his strings. I'd put him AT LEAST where Baraka is on this tier, to be honest.

In what world is shao relying on strike throw lol. All he has to do is find a way to get axe down on block and now he's got plus frames, a 50/50, and a command grab. And zoning isn't really that big of a deal in a game with sub kameo. Hell one of his best kameo's is tremor which just lets him armor up and get in for free. Plus Kham lets him glow up or just throw glaive and check you whenever he wants. Not to mention he has like 250 more health then every zoner that's using motaro right now lmao.

 

[Felipe_Gewehr]

and if you guess right on the setplay, you're no longer in danger - whereas as long as sento is out, you're in trouble.

You guess right on the command grab from Cyrax and get a punish, you guess right on Kenshi and the spirit is stunned, allowing your own pressure to start.

If you guess right on Cyrax doing a mid instead of a command grab, it is still his turn, pretty much the same as if you guess right on Kenshi but don't armor through the spirit.

The difference is that Cyrax doesn't need to expend resources to have access to the guessing game, whereas Kenshi needs to pull the spirit out somehow, and Cyrax puts you in a loop.

In what world is shao relying on strike throw lol. All he has to do is find a way to get axe down on block and now he's got plus frames, a 50/50, and a command grab. And zoning isn't really that big of a deal in a game with sub kameo. Hell one of his best kameo's is tremor which just lets him armor up and get in for free. Plus Kham lets him glow up or just throw glaive and check you whenever he wants. Not to mention he has like 250 more health then every zoner that's using motaro right now lmao.

That is a big IF. His plus frames can be armored to escape pressure (as with most characters's plus strings) and the command grab puts him back with the axe. The 50/50s are legit, if he can get in. His armor is a high, though, and his axe can be upblocked as well, which are pretty significant weaknesses one can exploit.

But again, this isn't about Shao "not being good". He is. How is he better than Liu, who has a much better pressure/stagger game, better damage, better spacing, zoning, throw combos...?

 

[wsj515]

You guess right on the command grab from Cyrax and get a punish, you guess right on Kenshi and the spirit is stunned, allowing your own pressure to start.

If you guess right on Cyrax doing a mid instead of a command grab, it is still his turn, pretty much the same as if you guess right on Kenshi but don't armor through the spirit.

The difference is that Cyrax doesn't need to expend resources to have access to the guessing game, whereas Kenshi needs to pull the spirit out somehow, and Cyrax puts you in a loop.



That is a big IF. His plus frames can be armored to escape pressure (as with most characters's plus strings) and the command grab puts him back with the axe. The 50/50s are legit, if he can get in. His armor is a high, though, and his axe can be upblocked as well, which are pretty significant weaknesses one can exploit.

But again, this isn't about Shao "not being good". He is. How is he better than Liu, who has a much better pressure/stagger game, better damage, better spacing, zoning, throw combos...?

Have you played either character? Playing Cyrax feels like playing sento-less sword stance kenshi, with potentially worse buttons (have you seen the hit advantage on her pokes?), and when you land a hit (which you're getting worse damage than kenshi on) you are granted sento for a single oki opportunity. If you screw up that oki opportunity, you either get punished, or at best will have to claw your way through neutral towards getting that hit again.

Kenshi, on the other hand, has a much better kit (albeit still not great) for neutral, and once he gets his hit (or block string, thanks stryker) can enforce gapless pressure or 50/50s, where even if you guess right on an OH/low the Kenshi player could have mixed up their timings to make it unamorable or unpunishable. Its often not even your turn, and Kenshi can just 50/50 you again, or do more pressure.

I can't believe I'm in here upplaying Kenshi, but people are waaaay overrating Cyrax.

 

[LEGEND]

Have you played either character? Playing Cyrax feels like playing sento-less sword stance kenshi, with potentially worse buttons (have you seen the hit advantage on her pokes?), and when you land a hit (which you're getting worse damage than kenshi on) you are granted sento for a single oki opportunity. If you screw up that oki opportunity, you either get punished, or at best will have to claw your way through neutral towards getting that hit again.

Kenshi, on the other hand, has a much better kit (albeit still not great) for neutral, and once he gets his hit (or block string, thanks stryker) can enforce gapless pressure or 50/50s, where even if you guess right on an OH/low the Kenshi player could have mixed up their timings to make it unamorable or unpunishable. Its often not even your turn, and Kenshi can just 50/50 you again, or do more pressure.

I can't believe I'm in here upplaying Kenshi, but people are waaaay overrating Cyrax.

I'm somewhere in the middle of downplaying and uplaying Cyrax it seems. Calling her worse Kenshi is madness though. Kenshi has no good buttons ( downplaying F2) and worse mobility and has to chase down for all of his matchups. Cyrax plays lame as hell and converts any interaction into a safe vortex. How many characters can even punish the throw option? 2 relevant characters?

Her buttons might be "bad" in a vacuum. But you gotta think about the threat of a random goo ball at all times around jump distance and closer, and there is always going to be a bomb on screen restricting your movement. Additional note. Her kick string naturally dodges most character's fastest jab, it's fucked up.

 

[Krasiox]

Raiden Lao Tanya Quan and Sub-Zero lower than Reptile is diabolical. He loses to all of them especially Lao and Tanya. And i don't hink he has better MU chart than all of those. Makes no sense at all.

 

[wsj515]

Reptile is pretty strong now, I don't think its that far-fetched. He's always had some of the best buttons in the game, great mobility, and has gotten a lot of buffs.

 

[wsj515]

I'm somewhere in the middle of downplaying and uplaying Cyrax it seems. Calling her worse Kenshi is madness though. Kenshi has no good buttons ( downplaying F2) and worse mobility and has to chase down for all of his matchups. Cyrax plays lame as hell and converts any interaction into a safe vortex. How many characters can even punish the throw option? 2 relevant characters?

Her buttons might be "bad" in a vacuum. But you gotta think about the threat of a random goo ball at all times around jump distance and closer, and there is always going to be a bomb on screen restricting your movement. Additional note. Her kick string naturally dodges most character's fastest jab, it's fucked up.

I think goo ball is way more dangerous full screen - throwing it out jump distance and closer is asking to get punished, it has 49f of recovery. And at full screen, more often than not, you can't really get a trade with goo ball again because if its bad frames - I find myself frequently needing to use sub zero armor if my opponent has successfully started their zoning.

Kenshi definitely wishes he had Cyrax's TP, but it can be punished, and other then that Kenshi has better movement, including his ridiculously good backdash which complements his better buttons. F2 and b2 are way better than anything Cyrax has. I was curious about Cyrax's b3 and this dodging of s1s - considering how stubby it is. I wasn't able to replicate any dodging of a s1 at all, unless it was a range where the s1 was already going to whiff. Further, there were ranges where a s1 would normally whiff, but it would hit Cyrax during the "dodging" startup of b3.

All this to say, a safe vortex that does 30% each rep, where the opponent guessing right doesn't leave Cyrax in a super favorable position isn't nowhere near enough to propel this character into top tier territory. She's got mk9 net-and-a-dream robbery potential, but a lot of the cast has that too, with way better all around kits.

 

[ImpostorOak]

I've seen roughly 75% of people saying Cyrax is broken admit they didn't even buy the expansion. So, they haven't labbed.