Toms conversation podcast with Tigerzz

[just_2swift]

I'm not taking this game seriously till NRS does. Shit is a damn party game.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

It doesn't matter, there's room for error. You can fuck up Jacquis cancels, you can't fuck up Sheeva's stomp

"You can fuck up Jacquis cancels"

I suggest you talk to any top player and ask them this. This is a character that is widely regarded as having a systemic issue, due to both her design and the game itself, that by definition cannot fuck up. Her mistakes constantly result in happy accidents.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

He’s overrating Sheevas stomps too much

Seen tons of people easily get around it

Anecdote not backed by actual data or facts. Tigerzz explains this too that there is a ton of misinformation. He literally says there are knockdowns etc where the stomp is just plain guaranteed.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

There are obvious different between Fujin and Atom, but did you have similar feelings towards Atom in injustice 2 with his ability o shit all over the neutral? I don't see a problem with fujin's design because the b2 actually does have to be directed. If you're one character length away a 3/4 screen b2 will whiff. Black Aadm could full combo launch from full screen. This is nothing new. Seeing Fujin placed in the same league as Jaqui or Sheeva or Cetrion is mind blowing to me. He's completely lab-able.

B2 shuts down the neutral entirely and basically prevents over half the cast from being able to move at all. Black Adam could full combo launch from anywhere on screen yes, but also over half the cast could punish him, often via full combos. This is the kind of lack of nuance in NRS dicussions that's frustrating to me. Black Adams black magic was riskier BY FAR when jumped or blocked compared to Fujin's B2 which is basically never a risk. How many times do you see Fujin's B2 get whiff punished or block punished? Almost never. Yet Black Adam could not even black magic in a lot of MU's. The other difference here is black adam was so negative on whiff you could often jump over it on a read, dash in and get a punish from fucking half screen or more away depending on your character. You had, generally speaking, more options and more accessibility to punishment against his character, save the fact Black Adam had an actual weakness, that he was a cripple when he got knocked down. MK11 has none of these balanced considerations in mind. Fujin never has to engage the neutral, never has to play footsies, subjects the majority of the cast to constant pressure with a PLUS FOUR LAUNCHER that cannot be countered in any consistent or meaningful way. His decision making, not his execution granted, but his decision making is JUST as braindead and thoughtless as Sheevas. All Fujin does is hunt for combos with massive safety or ridiculous workarounds to even have a shot at blowing him up.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Well to be fair, MK isn’t really known for its complex move inputs.

Exactly which is why I think this argument is kind of silly.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

I like tigerz because he's honest about his character and the cheese he uses. From the pros down to even the random on KL, nobody seems to want to admit that the characters they play have cheese. Yet everybody else needs to "git gud" when they win, and everything that beats them is "no skill scrub stuff."

Sheeva's stomp is obviously too good. But fujin can combo launch from half to 3/4 screen . Jacqui can do meterless combos from a leap that goes full screen. Cetrions has a million options on top of having amazing buttons and being able to teleport in or out as the situation dictates.

But it's ok that they have these options if other characters can do similar things. But we're either bricked by the variation system or the moves are flat out banned. Terminator has incapacitator in a preset, yet skarlet can't have killer clot. Again, jacqui and her unbreakable damage. But kitana had her plus frames from up fan taken so she can't do unbreakable damage with it. Mileena literally has half her kustoms taken up by different versions of her base moves. BUT SHE WAS DESIGNED TO RELEASE WITH CUSTOMS. Meaning they definitely did it on purpose.

I personally think discussing addressing these games needs to be more nuanced than this. Yes, I agree that Fujin, Jacqui etc should be the power level standard for this game, but the game still suffers from a lack of depth, a complete shutting out of all playstyles except pure offense and the fact it lacks literally half of the things that make a fighting game interesting at a competitive level. Wave dashing needs to be removed, dash cancelability needs to be removed, walk speed needs to be increased to not make the game feel too slow after that, the entire variation/kustom system needs a complete overhaul and reworking, the anti air problem needs addressing, this game needs to be reworked to have a FUNDAMENTAL BASIS which it doesn't have. Pokes need to all be the same. Flawless block attacks need to all be the same. Jab startups need to all be the same. S2's and S4's need to be made mids so that it's easier to defend yourself against relentless pressure in this game, I could go on. Simply buffing the lower tier characters is not good enough IMO especially since, as the game is currently designed, some characters CANNOT be good in this engine.

 

[Deleted member 64931]

B2 shuts down the neutral entirely and basically prevents over half the cast from being able to move at all. Black Adam could full combo launch from anywhere on screen yes, but also over half the cast could punish him, often via full combos. This is the kind of lack of nuance in NRS dicussions that's frustrating to me. Black Adams black magic was riskier BY FAR when jumped or blocked compared to Fujin's B2 which is basically never a risk. How many times do you see Fujin's B2 get whiff punished or block punished? Almost never. Yet Black Adam could not even black magic in a lot of MU's. The other difference here is black adam was so negative on whiff you could often jump over it on a read, dash in and get a punish from fucking half screen or more away depending on your character. You had, generally speaking, more options and more accessibility to punishment against his character, save the fact Black Adam had an actual weakness, that he was a cripple when he got knocked down. MK11 has none of these balanced considerations in mind. Fujin never has to engage the neutral, never has to play footsies, subjects the majority of the cast to constant pressure with a PLUS FOUR LAUNCHER that cannot be countered in any consistent or meaningful way. His decision making, not his execution granted, but his decision making is JUST as braindead and thoughtless as Sheevas. All Fujin does is hunt for combos with massive safety or ridiculous workarounds to even have a shot at blowing him up.

I’ve seen this plus four said by you and tigerz now... can you enlighten me on this. B2 into sky walk amplified is not plus 4. I’ve heard amplified sky walk in the corner is plus 4, it isn’t. Forgive the ignorance, but what set up is giving him plus 4?

blacks magic was punishable by the likes of star fires trait and tentacle strike. But a good chunk of the cast just had to hold that when blocked. There’s still an execution barrier to b2 sky walk that I see high level players regularly screwing up. when I see Han rashid win with fujin it’s well deserved.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

I’ve seen this plus four said by you and tigerz now... can you enlighten me on this. B2 into sky walk amplified is not plus 4. I’ve heard amplified sky walk in the corner is plus 4, it isn’t. Forgive the ignorance, but what set up is giving him plus 4?

blacks magic was punishable by the likes of star fires trait and tentacle strike. But a good chunk of the cast just had to hold that when blocked. There’s still an execution barrier to b2 sky walk that I see high level players regularly screwing up. when I see Han rashid win with fujin it’s well deserved.

"I’ve seen this plus four said by you and tigerz now... can you enlighten me on this. B2 into sky walk amplified is not plus 4. I’ve heard amplified sky walk in the corner is plus 4, it isn’t. Forgive the ignorance, but what set up is giving him plus 4?"

If the opponent blocks the third pulse of amp Sky Wakka, canceling it makes it plus 4. This is a jailing plus four launcher.

"blacks magic was punishable by the likes of star fires trait and tentacle strike. But a good chunk of the cast just had to hold that when blocked. There’s still an execution barrier to b2 sky walk that I see high level players regularly screwing up. when I see Han rashid win with fujin it’s well deserved."

As someone who ground Injustice 2 40 hours a week with top players and a group of people that dissected the game to death, you're flat out factually incorrect here. From full full screen, it could be punished by

Starfire
Green Lantern
The mirror
Atrocitus
Manta
Aquaman
Firestorm
Deadshot
Scarecrow with max trait
Supergirl
Ivy
Red Hood

And this isn't even counting the plethora of options characters had at mid screen etc. AND ONCE AGAIN, EVEN IF your problem was the fuck neutral aspect of the move, it was still death on whiff and Black Adam got HELLA cucked in the footsie game by a lot of characters and got absolutely shit on on knockdown. There were deficiencies this character had, whereas Fujin had ZERO deficiencies.

Also don't get me wrong, high execution should be rewarded. High execution though, still shouldn't result in completely eliminating the neutral game for more than half the cast. Fujin legit 7-3's a majority of this cast. Top players say this in private but don't want to be open about it due to numerous issues, sponsor contracts, trying to keep their social media presence positive for PR (toxic postivity bois) and just don't wanna be seen as complainers. This is not a healthy character design, execution or not. Once again, there's more nuance to this than SHEEVA EZ FUJIN HARD. That still doesn't matter if the result it has on the game is bad.

 

[slothsftw]

Anecdote not backed by actual data or facts. Tigerzz explains this too that there is a ton of misinformation. He literally says there are knockdowns etc where the stomp is just plain guaranteed.

The reality is Sheeva has to guess and has 1 in 3 chances of getting it wrong

ive spammed stomp plenty can easily get around with a simple back or forward walk

 

[Chernyy Volk]

The reality is Sheeva has to guess and has 1 in 3 chances of getting it wrong

ive spammed stomp plenty can easily get around with a simple back or forward walk

So you're just gonna ignore him saying there are guaranteed stomp setups and also characters that CAN'T avoid it period? Did you even listen to him?

 

[Deleted member 64931]

"I’ve seen this plus four said by you and tigerz now... can you enlighten me on this. B2 into sky walk amplified is not plus 4. I’ve heard amplified sky walk in the corner is plus 4, it isn’t. Forgive the ignorance, but what set up is giving him plus 4?"

If the opponent blocks the third pulse of amp Sky Wakka, canceling it makes it plus 4. This is a jailing plus four launcher.

"blacks magic was punishable by the likes of star fires trait and tentacle strike. But a good chunk of the cast just had to hold that when blocked. There’s still an execution barrier to b2 sky walk that I see high level players regularly screwing up. when I see Han rashid win with fujin it’s well deserved."

As someone who ground Injustice 2 40 hours a week with top players and a group of people that dissected the game to death, you're flat out factually incorrect here. From full full screen, it could be punished by

Starfire
Green Lantern
The mirror
Atrocitus
Manta
Aquaman
Firestorm
Deadshot
Scarecrow with max trait
Supergirl
Ivy
Red Hood

And this isn't even counting the plethora of options characters had at mid screen etc. AND ONCE AGAIN, EVEN IF your problem was the fuck neutral aspect of the move, it was still death on whiff and Black Adam got HELLA cucked in the footsie game by a lot of characters and got absolutely shit on on knockdown. There were deficiencies this character had, whereas Fujin had ZERO deficiencies.

Also don't get me wrong, high execution should be rewarded. High execution though, still shouldn't result in completely eliminating the neutral game for more than half the cast. Fujin legit 7-3's a majority of this cast. Top players say this in private but don't want to be open about it due to numerous issues, sponsor contracts, trying to keep their social media presence positive for PR (toxic postivity bois) and just don't wanna be seen as complainers. This is not a healthy character design, execution or not. Once again, there's more nuance to this than SHEEVA EZ FUJIN HARD. That still doesn't matter if the result it has on the game is bad.

you listed a handful of characters in a roster of over 40 that could punish it from full screen and most of those aren’t full combo punishes either. I ground that game too. I beat your black manta several times. Any problem you have with fujin is such hypocritical bullshit When you got carried by black manta’s f2 and trait. I don’t want to hear. Fujin was no where near top tier before customs but now airsenal lets him conserve defense meter.

I’ll take your opinion on injustice seriously but you are such a dogshit mk11 player it’s laughable. I played your Shang as fujin and you woke up buttons every time. I read you like a book.

 

[just_2swift]

"I’ve seen this plus four said by you and tigerz now... can you enlighten me on this. B2 into sky walk amplified is not plus 4. I’ve heard amplified sky walk in the corner is plus 4, it isn’t. Forgive the ignorance, but what set up is giving him plus 4?"

If the opponent blocks the third pulse of amp Sky Wakka, canceling it makes it plus 4. This is a jailing plus four launcher.

"blacks magic was punishable by the likes of star fires trait and tentacle strike. But a good chunk of the cast just had to hold that when blocked. There’s still an execution barrier to b2 sky walk that I see high level players regularly screwing up. when I see Han rashid win with fujin it’s well deserved."

As someone who ground Injustice 2 40 hours a week with top players and a group of people that dissected the game to death, you're flat out factually incorrect here. From full full screen, it could be punished by

Starfire
Green Lantern
The mirror
Atrocitus
Manta
Aquaman
Firestorm
Deadshot
Scarecrow with max trait
Supergirl
Ivy
Red Hood

And this isn't even counting the plethora of options characters had at mid screen etc. AND ONCE AGAIN, EVEN IF your problem was the fuck neutral aspect of the move, it was still death on whiff and Black Adam got HELLA cucked in the footsie game by a lot of characters and got absolutely shit on on knockdown. There were deficiencies this character had, whereas Fujin had ZERO deficiencies.

Also don't get me wrong, high execution should be rewarded. High execution though, still shouldn't result in completely eliminating the neutral game for more than half the cast. Fujin legit 7-3's a majority of this cast. Top players say this in private but don't want to be open about it due to numerous issues, sponsor contracts, trying to keep their social media presence positive for PR (toxic postivity bois) and just don't wanna be seen as complainers. This is not a healthy character design, execution or not. Once again, there's more nuance to this than SHEEVA EZ FUJIN HARD. That still doesn't matter if the result it has on the game is bad.

Also CYBORG can IAFB and shut Adam down full screen.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

you listed a handful of characters in a roster of over 40 that could punish it from full screen and most of those aren’t full combo punishes either. I ground that game too. I beat your black manta several times. Any problem you have with fujin is such hypocritical bullshit When you got carried by black manta’s f2 and trait. I don’t want to hear. Fujin was no where near top tier before customs but now airsenal lets him conserve defense meter.

I’ll take your opinion on injustice seriously but you are such a dogshit mk11 player it’s laughable. I played your Shang as fujin and you woke up buttons every time. I read you like a book.

This is the kind of shit that makes it impossible to have actual dialogue in this scene. You can't substantiate an argument, so all you can do is resort to "WELL I I I I....I B-B-EAT YOU IN RANKED PUSSY" as if that has anything to do with the legitimacy of my opinions or yours.

If you couldn't bait and whiff punish Manta's F2 btw I'm sorry. Every top player I ground the game with could do it on reaction. You had to condition fear into someone to even get off F2 in the neutral without getting jabbed into bounce cancelled out of it.

 

[Deleted member 64931]

This is the kind of shit that makes it impossible to have actual dialogue in this scene. You can't substantiate an argument, so all you can do is resort to "WELL I I I I....I B-B-EAT YOU IN RANKED PUSSY" as if that has anything to do with the legitimacy of my opinions or yours.

If you couldn't bait and whiff punish Manta's F2 btw I'm sorry. Every top player I ground the game with could do it on reaction. You had to condition fear into someone to even get off F2 in the neutral without getting jabbed into bounce cancelled out of it.

alright man but I’ve been playing injustice 2 again and learning some new characters. I was watching your set with magic man and every 10 seconds it was f21 trait j3.

I’ve run into hayatei a number of times. Fujin never feels unfair or unwinnable.

Also who needs sponsorship right now with offline events?? I get the toxic positivity (crimson shadow) but I dont think sponsorship is the reason.

 

[slothsftw]

So you're just gonna ignore him saying there are guaranteed stomp setups and also characters that CAN'T avoid it period? Did you even listen to him?

Who is disagreeing with that?
That doesn’t change what I said

I’ve spammed stomp and I’ve seen people easily get around it by walking back and forth, or edenian razors or up fan

yes nothing is 100% anwser but don’t act like there aren’t options

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Who is disagreeing with that?
That doesn’t change what I said

I’ve spammed stomp and I’ve seen people easily get around it by walking back and forth, or edenian razors or up fan

yes nothing is 100% anwser but don’t act like there aren’t options

If something is a total and complete guess and it isn't in your control to prevent it even with a read, there aren't answers or options. It's totally up to the slot machine.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

alright man but I’ve been playing injustice 2 again and learning some new characters. I was watching your set with magic man and every 10 seconds it was f21 trait j3.

I’ve run into hayatei a number of times. Fujin never feels unfair or unwinnable.

Also who needs sponsorship right now with offline events?? I get the toxic positivity (crimson shadow) but I dont think sponsorship is the reason.

Magic Man was bad tbh. There is a video I believe on Honeybee's channel of us running a set and he would legit S1 F2 with Flash on reaction into full combo. The button is almost unusable against people who are ready.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

alright man but I’ve been playing injustice 2 again and learning some new characters. I was watching your set with magic man and every 10 seconds it was f21 trait j3.

I’ve run into hayatei a number of times. Fujin never feels unfair or unwinnable.

Also who needs sponsorship right now with offline events?? I get the toxic positivity (crimson shadow) but I dont think sponsorship is the reason.

Also, once again, anecdotal evidence and not actually observing what's happening in the game ON TOP OF ALL THE TOP PLAYERS AGREEING THAT FUJIN LITERALLY PREVENTS NEUTRAL FROM BEING PLAYED AND HE HAS MULTIPLE 7-3'S. I'm not talking out of my ass here. It's pretty much widely agreed if you don't play another top 5 character against Fujin, your chances of having any success against him are nil.

 

[Juggs]

One topic that was touched on a little bit is something I’ve been saying for over a decade now. It objectively makes more sense to buff characters than it does to nerf characters.

As far as balance is concerned, the goal should be to make as many characters in the game as possible competitively viable. Meaning, you can use any character you want and be able to compete. The best way to do this is to have a consensus on who the top tier characters are. Then, and this part is crucial, understand why these characters are top tier. Not only what they have in their arsenal that makes them uniquely good, but what do they have in common with one another that makes them such good characters.

Then, you start implementing buffs to the consensus low tier characters to fit that criteria as closely as possible.

You never want to have a character, or multiple characters, that are top tier and really good, and then you gut them to where no one wants to play them anymore. That is not at all the direction you should ever want to go. I’m not suggesting you should never nerf any character or never nerf anything, but that should be reserved for things that are so obviously (actually) broken, or characters that far and away dominate the meta. The issue is, you have to be careful when you nerf said character. You don’t want people to completely abandon the character because anything and everything that made the character good was gutted.

I think the best way to go about this is that you START with buffs. You attempt to elevate all the low characters to fit with the mid tier characters. Once you’ve accomplished that, then you start tweaking all the mid tier characters to make them able to be competitive with the top tier. After you’ve done this, and the top tiers are still too good comparatively speaking, THEN you start implementing SLIGHT nerfs to these characters. But, that doesn’t mean you make them no longer top tier, the goal is to bridge the gap. The smaller the gap is from tier to tier and from character to character, the better the game will be overall.

As a concept it seems so obviously the right way it should be handled, I will never understand why it never seems to be the direction NRS takes the game.

 

[Deleted member 64931]

Also, once again, anecdotal evidence and not actually observing what's happening in the game ON TOP OF ALL THE TOP PLAYERS AGREEING THAT FUJIN LITERALLY PREVENTS NEUTRAL FROM BEING PLAYED AND HE HAS MULTIPLE 7-3'S. I'm not talking out of my ass here. It's pretty much widely agreed if you don't play another top 5 character against Fujin, your chances of having any success against him are nil.

I don’t consider Tom Brady or REO top players in mk11. Frankly tigerz isn’t either. There’s no way to spin stomp as a positive right now. It is literally the most disgusting thing I’ve ever seen in an NRS title including Martian Manhunter’s safe over head teleport. Ive played hayatei’s fujin with raiden (lightning storm, quick charge, storm cell) and won 2-1. Raiden isn’t even top 10. Jade with Delia’s dance feels like a 7-3 in that matchup for instance. I just came off a match against illusions that felt unwinnable and Fujin felt relatively even. No one even mentioned fujin before customs because he was always deprived of defensive meter. Shang and scorpion lose to him sure but he does not 7-3 half the cast.

You lost to magic man in that set 5-3 and then basically just gave up so let’s stop with calling other players bad when clearly the dude bested you. Was he carried by firestorm? Yeah probably a little. But yes I know you can even down 2 out of that trait cancel (with atom at least). Point being BM didn’t exactly play neutral
either.

But when stuff like jaqui and sheeva still exist fujin should be the least of anyone’s concerns. Even cetrion isn’t that bad. I mean Raiden 6-4’s her at least And jade arguably wins that matchup too. My change for jaqui would be to change the leap arc so you can actually anti air and tigerz sheeva change to plus over head isn’t bad. But I’d personally rather it be gone. It’s beyond the pale in its current state.

 

[Deleted member 64931]

Also, once again, anecdotal evidence and not actually observing what's happening in the game ON TOP OF ALL THE TOP PLAYERS AGREEING THAT FUJIN LITERALLY PREVENTS NEUTRAL FROM BEING PLAYED AND HE HAS MULTIPLE 7-3'S. I'm not talking out of my ass here. It's pretty much widely agreed if you don't play another top 5 character against Fujin, your chances of having any success against him are nil.

This is a fighting video game. All we have is anecdotal evidence and estimations of winning matchups. Nrs has the meta data of every online match played and I guarantee you Fujin isn’t 7-3 ing the majority of the cast. Tigerz putting noob in top 5 is also patently absurd. Liu, cetrion, jaqui, joker are all undisputed top 4. Everyone else is below them.

 

[Onryoki]

One topic that was touched on a little bit is something I’ve been saying for over a decade now. It objectively makes more sense to buff characters than it does to nerf characters.

As far as balance is concerned, the goal should be to make as many characters in the game as possible competitively viable. Meaning, you can use any character you want and be able to compete. The best way to do this is to have a consensus on who the top tier characters are. Then, and this part is crucial, understand why these characters are top tier. Not only what they have in their arsenal that makes them uniquely good, but what do they have in common with one another that makes them such good characters.

Then, you start implementing buffs to the consensus low tier characters to fit that criteria as closely as possible.

You never want to have a character, or multiple characters, that are top tier and really good, and then you gut them to where no one wants to play them anymore. That is not at all the direction you should ever want to go. I’m not suggesting you should never nerf any character or never nerf anything, but that should be reserved for things that are so obviously (actually) broken, or characters that far and away dominate the meta. The issue is, you have to be careful when you nerf said character. You don’t want people to completely abandon the character because anything and everything that made the character good was gutted.

I think the best way to go about this is that you START with buffs. You attempt to elevate all the low characters to fit with the mid tier characters. Once you’ve accomplished that, then you start tweaking all the mid tier characters to make them able to be competitive with the top tier. After you’ve done this, and the top tiers are still too good comparatively speaking, THEN you start implementing SLIGHT nerfs to these characters. But, that doesn’t mean you make them no longer top tier, the goal is to bridge the gap. The smaller the gap is from tier to tier and from character to character, the better the game will be overall.

As a concept it seems so obviously the right way it should be handled, I will never understand why it never seems to be the direction NRS takes the game.

That’s a interesting take, actually. However, I am wondering what the consensus would be. And how do we tell which character is high tier and which one isn’t? Isn’t that also partly subjective? I’ve seen many different tier lists with different characters at the top every time. I think finding that consensus would be really hard. I love the idea though.

There’s one thing I disagree with though, characters shouldn’t only get buffed, if that would happen, every character in the game would become broken eventually. I think looking at the tools of a character and if it’s too good it should be nerfed. Like Jacqui’s unbreakable damage. One solution is to give every character that option and possibility. But another solution is to make it harder for Jacqui to gain that damage, just make it less damaging, give tools to characters so they can deal with it or make sure it can be broken by adding a game mechanic.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

This is a fighting video game. All we have is anecdotal evidence and estimations of winning matchups. Nrs has the meta data of every online match played and I guarantee you Fujin isn’t 7-3 ing the majority of the cast. Tigerz putting noob in top 5 is also patently absurd. Liu, cetrion, jaqui, joker are all undisputed top 4. Everyone else is below them.

You watch high level play and take note of stats and MU's. You can 100% draw empirical evidence of how good a character is by doing this.

Question. Are you a Fujin player?

 

[Chernyy Volk]

I don’t consider Tom Brady or REO top players in mk11. Frankly tigerz isn’t either. There’s no way to spin stomp as a positive right now. It is literally the most disgusting thing I’ve ever seen in an NRS title including Martian Manhunter’s safe over head teleport. Ive played hayatei’s fujin with raiden (lightning storm, quick charge, storm cell) and won 2-1. Raiden isn’t even top 10. Jade with Delia’s dance feels like a 7-3 in that matchup for instance. I just came off a match against illusions that felt unwinnable and Fujin felt relatively even. No one even mentioned fujin before customs because he was always deprived of defensive meter. Shang and scorpion lose to him sure but he does not 7-3 half the cast.

You lost to magic man in that set 5-3 and then basically just gave up so let’s stop with calling other players bad when clearly the dude bested you. Was he carried by firestorm? Yeah probably a little. But yes I know you can even down 2 out of that trait cancel (with atom at least). Point being BM didn’t exactly play neutral
either.

But when stuff like jaqui and sheeva still exist fujin should be the least of anyone’s concerns. Even cetrion isn’t that bad. I mean Raiden 6-4’s her at least And jade arguably wins that matchup too. My change for jaqui would be to change the leap arc so you can actually anti air and tigerz sheeva change to plus over head isn’t bad. But I’d personally rather it be gone. It’s beyond the pale in its current state.

Top players were discussing Fujin being broke before kustoms. I was around/witnessed those conversations.

Once again, you are giving an anecdotal example, not data. You don't know if Hayatei was trying his hardest etc. He was probably streaming, because I'm on pretty good terms with Hayatei and I know that he doesn't play KL unless he's streaming usually. You can't focus and devote 100% while also entertaining a stream man.

Also okay fair enough but my losing to magic man (who I had an overwhelming record of beating more than losing to) is not relevant to Fujin destroying the integrity of the game just as much as Jacqui or Cetrion or Sheeva does. He's the same shit.

Stop arguing from anecdotes, look at the fucking tournament results, and realize I'm right here, at least more right than you even if I'm not exactly right. Fujin being broke is top player consensus, it's a character that constantly makes top 8's and high level Fujin's just shit on anybody playing non meta characters for the most part.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Top players were discussing Fujin being broke before kustoms. I was around/witnessed those conversations.

You were one of the main people saying Fujin was bad -- which makes this conversation even more ironic now:

In fact, you guys were campaigning for buffs:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1266225548151357440

And you were careful to point out that it wasn't just an opinion from a distance, but that you'd spent tons of time labbing and playing the character yourself and you knew what you were talking about

You just say he was bad, you said he was "unusable" and "half-functioning". Beautiful.