What's new

Toms conversation podcast with Tigerzz

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
You were one of the main people saying Fujin was bad -- which makes this conversation even more ironic now:

In fact, you guys were campaigning for buffs:

And you were careful to point out that it wasn't just an opinion from a distance, but that you'd spent tons of time labbing and playing the character yourself and you knew what you were talking about :coffee:

You just say he was bad, you said he was "unusable" and "half-functioning". Beautiful.
I'm allowed to be wrong and change my mind Crimson. This isn't a dis-creditor of my argument. I didn't expect him to have a fuck neutral wave dash that made everything ridiculous in hindsight.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I'm allowed to be wrong and change my mind Crimson. This isn't a dis-creditor of my argument. I didn't expect him to have a fuck neutral wave dash that made everything ridiculous in hindsight.
Yeah, you tried to retcon it to "oh it's just a glitch/his wavedash", without acknowledging that you failed to mention all the other stuff that makes him good: Pressure, normals (b2? f3?), specials (Needle, Sky Wakka, etc.), ability to whiff punish, and safety.

And you used "I talk to top players" as a method to try to push a fallacy on everybody else and shut down those who disagreed.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
Yeah, you tried to retcon it to "oh it's just a glitch/his wavedash", without acknowledging that you failed to mention all the other stuff that makes him good: Pressure, normals (b2? f3?), specials (Needle, Sky Wakka, etc.), ability to whiff punish, and safety.

And you used "I talk to top players" as a method to try to push a fallacy on everybody else and shut down people who disagreed.
What's the fallacy?

The wavedash 100% pushes all his tools over the edge Crimson. I have had a Nightwolf D3 whiff punished from FULL SCREEN by a Fujin wave dashing into B1. B1 in of itself would not be as good if it wasn't for the insane mobility save B2 and the way it shuts down the game. I'm not wrong about that.

Anyways what's the fallacy?
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
What's the fallacy?

The wavedash 100% pushes all his tools over the edge Crimson. I have had a Nightwolf D3 whiff punished from FULL SCREEN by a Fujin wave dashing into B1. B1 in of itself would not be as good if it wasn't for the insane mobility save B2 and the way it shuts down the game. I'm not wrong about that.

Anyways what's the fallacy?
We're not talking about "over the edge" or what makes him absolute top tier. You said he was "unusable". While ignoring most of his best tools. Come on.

There's a big difference between "Ehh maybe he's ok but super good" and "This character is absolute dogshit, how did NRS think that this character was usable at all when they designed him" which is what you tried to push on everybody else.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
We're not talking about "over the edge" or what makes him absolute top tier. You said he was "unusable". While ignoring most of his best tools. Come on.

There's a big difference between "Ehh maybe he's ok but super good" and "This character is absolute dogshit, how did NRS think that this character was usable at all when they designed him" which is what you tried to push on everybody else.
Why are you redirecting from the topic here? I've admitted I was wrong about Fujin. Move on.

What's the fallacy? What am I wrong about here now? Please do something besides strawman and move the goal posts.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Why are you redirecting from the topic here? I've admitted I was wrong about Fujin. Move on.

What's the fallacy? What am I wrong about here now? Please do something besides strawman and move the goal posts.
It's not about Fujin. It's about the fact that you consistently try to hide questionable/hyperbolic arguments behind "listen to me, I talk to top players", instead of the merit of the arguments themselves.

And then later on, you make excuses for it and then pull the same shenanigans again, as if others can invalidate everyone who thinks differently than you do.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
It's not about Fujin. It's about the fact that you consistently try to hid questionable arguments behind "listen to me, I talk to top players", instead of the merit of the arguments themselves.

And then later on, you make excuses for it and then pull the same shenanigans again, as if others can invalidate everyone who thinks differently than you do.
I don't have questionable arguments but I do think it matters that the top players also happen to majorally agree with my arguments. An appeal to authority fallacy only applies if I'm invoking someone who is an authority, but not on the subject we're talking about. It isn't fallacious in this case to do so.

Also I don't do that. You have to actually prove I'm doing that. My arguments do stand on themselves, they also just happen to be most of the consensus at the highest level of play as well.
 

Ilthuain

Lost in a labyrinth of egoism
What's the fallacy?
You make a claim and instead of refuting criticisms of the claim, you lean on "top players said it". Often times you don't cite these top players or what they specifically said.

Appeals to authority are sometimes valid, but there has to be an agreement that a person is an authority on the subject and you do need to directly cite their supporting arguments.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
You make a claim and instead of refuting criticisms of the claim, you lean on "top players said it". Often times you don't cite these top players or what they specifically said.

Appeals to authority are sometimes valid, but there has to be an agreement that a person is an authority on the subject and you do need to directly cite their supporting arguments.
What's the claim I'm not responding to or refuting though?
 
You were one of the main people saying Fujin was bad -- which makes this conversation even more ironic now:

In fact, you guys were campaigning for buffs:

And you were careful to point out that it wasn't just an opinion from a distance, but that you'd spent tons of time labbing and playing the character yourself and you knew what you were talking about :coffee:

You just say he was bad, you said he was "unusable" and "half-functioning". Beautiful.
Thank you! One of the few times I’ve fully agreed with you.

It’s not anecdotal to say the only fujin players placing in top 8s are hayatei and Han rashid.

And no he’s no my main. I mostly play kabal, raiden, and cetrion. And dabbled in the rest of the cast but I’ve been playing fujin more lately. I just find him to be a really cool design.

No ones was talking about him being busted before you could put Airsenal and sky wakka together. That is absolute lie. Every time
The character wanted to combo he would would lose his ability to break. If you thought he was op pre patch you’re just a mess at this game. Im
Not even trying to be rude, but come on man.
 
It's not about Fujin. It's about the fact that you consistently try to hide questionable/hyperbolic arguments behind "listen to me, I talk to top players", instead of the merit of the arguments themselves.

And then later on, you make excuses for it and then pull the same shenanigans again, as if others can invalidate everyone who thinks differently than you do.
Maybe I was wrong about you. I hate the constant excuse making but spitting straight facts here.
 

Saboteur-6

Filthy Casual
I actually really enjoyed this podcast and hearing Tom and Tigerz opinion. I wish this is the conversation that could've happened on REOs podcast but it took a turn when Tom got hella defensive and Dave, Reo and Crimson just got caught up debating each other. I think the idea that the variation system feels unbalanced is a fair point. Like, they didn't bother revamping the slot allocation and banned moves once custom variations became a thing.

As far as Sheeva goes I think her stomp needs looked at but I won't pretend to know exactly what the changes should be. Also side note, I'd like to have Tigerz as a regular on REOs podcast.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
This is the kind of shit that makes it impossible to have actual dialogue in this scene. You can't substantiate an argument, so all you can do is resort to "WELL I I I I....I B-B-EAT YOU IN RANKED PUSSY" as if that has anything to do with the legitimacy of my opinions or yours.

If you couldn't bait and whiff punish Manta's F2 btw I'm sorry. Every top player I ground the game with could do it on reaction. You had to condition fear into someone to even get off F2 in the neutral without getting jabbed into bounce cancelled out of it.
Earlier, you roasted someone for using anecdotal evidence to substantiate claims. Saying, "Guys I played with did x consistently" is anecdotal evidence.

You say you want discourse, but immediately condescend any opposing viewpoint.

What you really want is clout and attention.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
I don't have questionable arguments but I do think it matters that the top players also happen to majorally agree with my arguments. An appeal to authority fallacy only applies if I'm invoking someone who is an authority, but not on the subject we're talking about. It isn't fallacious in this case to do so.

Also I don't do that. You have to actually prove I'm doing that. My arguments do stand on themselves, they also just happen to be most of the consensus at the highest level of play as well.
Actually, Crimson is 100% correct here. Also, spamming, "I talk to top players" isn't a compelling argument as they can be wrong too.

Like when Burrito Vorhees said Fujin needed buffs.

The real takeaway is that we shouldn't declare characters unusable after only a day. But attention seekers gotta attention seek.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
I haven't been following the tournament scene in awhile, but has there been anyone that has made top 8 with Fujin that wouldn't have done so otherwise?

I mean Hayatei is a pretty successful player, as is Han Rashid so....
 

Zer0_h0ur

XBL tag: South of Zero
Why are you redirecting from the topic here? I've admitted I was wrong about Fujin. Move on.

What's the fallacy? What am I wrong about here now? Please do something besides strawman and move the goal posts.
The issue is your superlative argument going from one extreme to the other.
How could you not acknowledge Fujin's wavedash when calling him dog shit after hours and hours of labbing when it takes 5 minutes in the lab to see his wave dash is broke af?
Makes even less sense bc one of your initial criticisms of the game was how stupid and broken wave dashing is to the original intent of this game's neutral (which I fully agree with).

It doesn't invalidate your current argument but constantly making superlative hyperbolic claims doesn't help.
 
Last edited:

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
Earlier, you roasted someone for using anecdotal evidence to substantiate claims. Saying, "Guys I played with did x consistently" is anecdotal evidence.

You say you want discourse, but immediately condescend any opposing viewpoint.

What you really want is clout and attention.
Prove I said "guys I played with did x consistently" because I never said that.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
The issue is your superlative argument going from one extreme to the other.
How could you not acknowledge Fujin's wavedash when calling him dog shit after hours and hours of labbing when it takes 5 minutes in the lab to see his wave dash is broke af?
Makes even less sense bc one of your initial criticisms of the game was how stupid and broken wave dashing is to the original intent of this game's neutral (which I fully agree with).

It doesn't invalidate your current argument but constantly making superlative hyperbolic claims doesn't help.
I understand that, I just think bringing this up now is a huge straw man. I was obviously MASSIVELY wrong and I admit that. Some people still wouldn't give that up.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
I haven't been following the tournament scene in awhile, but has there been anyone that has made top 8 with Fujin that wouldn't have done so otherwise?

I mean Hayatei is a pretty successful player, as is Han Rashid so....
As far as I know, everyone who is a dedicated Fujin main who we know to be good makes top 8's. Every Fujin main who when asked what's good about Fujin, say that it's because he eliminates the neutral, he legit keeps the majority of the cast from even getting to play the game and you NEED to play a meta character to actually stand a realistic chance of winning. There might be niche character answers, but those speculated ones haven't been shown to be consistent.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
You make a claim and instead of refuting criticisms of the claim, you lean on "top players said it". Often times you don't cite these top players or what they specifically said.

Appeals to authority are sometimes valid, but there has to be an agreement that a person is an authority on the subject and you do need to directly cite their supporting arguments.
Well, I can't do that because that involves either showing DM's and I don't do that, or looking through stream VOD's to find time stamps. I still don't see proof my argument leans on this though. It's just the logical, obvious mechanical reality here that what I'm saying regarding Fujin is how it is here. The only way people can argue against this is making crazy post modernist digressions about everything so that you can't discuss anything about the game with hard definitions lol
 

Ilthuain

Lost in a labyrinth of egoism
Well, I can't do that because that involves either showing DM's and I don't do that, or looking through stream VOD's to find time stamps.
Then why should I (or anyone else) believe you? If I started saying "top players send me DMs all the time and say I'm always right", would that convince you?

If you can't support your claims with proof, you should reconsider making the claims in the first place.

I still don't see proof my argument leans on this though.
Okay, so why do you do it? It's a persistent behavior and disincentives people from engaging with you. Like, why would I defend any position counter to yours when I know it's going to devolve into "well, top players have reached a consensus and agree with me". Couple that with your reluctance to produce proof, and I know going into any disagreement that it's going to be an unsatisfying waste of my time.