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Toms conversation podcast with Tigerzz

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
Then why should I (or anyone else) believe you? If I started saying "top players send me DMs all the time and say I'm always right", would that convince you?

If you can't support your claims with proof, you should reconsider making the claims in the first place.



Okay, so why do you do it? It's a persistent behavior and disincentives people from engaging with you. Like, why would I defend any position counter to yours when I know it's going to devolve into "well, top players have reached a consensus and agree with me". Couple that with your reluctance to produce proof, and I know going into any disagreement that it's going to be an unsatisfying waste of my time.
The problem is even if I could provide the proof it turns into "top players don't actually know anything" which is just completely ass backwards from an occams razor stand point. I feel like it matters that people that play the game FOURTY HOURS A WEEK LIKE IT'S A JOB say these things. These people would find the answers if there was one. Yes, people can be wrong, but not after 1000+ hours of grinding a game and fishing for answers day in and day out. I was wrong about Fujin day one, but I'm not wrong now and neither are the people that play the game at the highest level for hours upon hours and play ft50's against top Fujin players. Not to mention like I said, the mechanical literal realities of the game itself that should be plain as day to anybody.
 

Savage8-8

Premium
Premium Supporter
I feel like it matters that people that play the game FOURTY HOURS A WEEK LIKE IT'S A JOB say these things.
This is valid.

Yes, people can be wrong, but not after 1000+ hours of grinding a game and fishing for answers day in and day out.
This isn't valid. Just bc you put in the time or you are good at the game does not make you infallible.
For example if sonic fox tweeted scorpion was broken no one would take it seriously. But just bc someone isn't always right doesn't mean that their take isn't valid.

You have said and done things that damaged your credibility to the point where people instantly have a preconception about your thread just by seeing your name. The "top player defense" doesn't work bc people don't find you credible anyway or even believe you. That's why people are asking for proof.


People do listen to what top players say but not just bc they are top players....bc they have valid points and arguments that they make.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
This is valid.



This isn't valid. Just bc you put in the time or you are good at the game does not make you infallible.
For example if sonic fox tweeted scorpion was broken no one would take it seriously. But just bc someone isn't always right doesn't mean that their take isn't valid.

You have said and done things that damaged your credibility to the point where people instantly have a preconception about your thread just by seeing your name. The "top player defense" doesn't work bc people don't find you credible anyway or even believe you. That's why people are asking for proof.


People do listen to what top players say but not just bc they are top players....bc they have valid points and arguments that they make.
I understand what you’re saying, but I believe if SonicFox said a character was broken, especially if that character is as widely hated (and used) as Scorpion, I have no doubts you’d have tons of people unironically agreeing. That’s what people do, especially when it comes to fighting games, they appeal to authority. If a top player says something, they tend to agree, regardless if they actually even know what they’re really “agreeing” on.

So I can understand Cherny’s frustrations if he says something, no one takes him seriously or agrees, then top players say the same thing, and everyone (or most) agrees. Now, I have no idea what Cherny or anyone has actually said, I don’t care in the slightest bit actually. In fact, I’d say that the “I said it first” comments are some of the most useless and petty complaints in our community. People’s ego’s are starving so badly that they need any and every crumb of props they can suck up with their pride vacuum’s. Like I said. I can understand the frustration, but at some point you’re going to have to grow up and realize that that’s just how it is. To quote a legend, “that’s just how it be sometimes”.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
As far as I know, everyone who is a dedicated Fujin main who we know to be good makes top 8's. Every Fujin main who when asked what's good about Fujin, say that it's because he eliminates the neutral, he legit keeps the majority of the cast from even getting to play the game and you NEED to play a meta character to actually stand a realistic chance of winning. There might be niche character answers, but those speculated ones haven't been shown to be consistent.
So if the people that are known to consistently place could do so without Fujin, does it really matter? Is this a vanilla I2 situation where one event has three Deadshot players? I don't think so. If a guy like Hayatei who can place standing on his head does so with Fujin, but your average Joe can't, it's probably at least in some part Hayatei himself, no?

I'm almost positive that I or any TYM poster or twotter egg or pot monster could pick up Fujin and still lose to Hayatei playing the worst character in the game.

I just don't think Hayatei and Han Rashid placing well is a Fujin issue.
 
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Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
You watch high level play and take note of stats and MU's. You can 100% draw empirical evidence of how good a character is by doing this.

Question. Are you a Fujin player?
Show you work, then. Please include methodology and sample size.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
The problem is even if I could provide the proof it turns into "top players don't actually know anything" which is just completely ass backwards from an occams razor stand point. I feel like it matters that people that play the game FOURTY HOURS A WEEK LIKE IT'S A JOB say these things. These people would find the answers if there was one. Yes, people can be wrong, but not after 1000+ hours of grinding a game and fishing for answers day in and day out. I was wrong about Fujin day one, but I'm not wrong now and neither are the people that play the game at the highest level for hours upon hours and play ft50's against top Fujin players. Not to mention like I said, the mechanical literal realities of the game itself that should be plain as day to anybody.
Pretty sure Burrito Vorhees grinded the game when he said that Fujin needed buffs.

But I mean nice on trying to pre-empt his argument up there.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
This is valid.



This isn't valid. Just bc you put in the time or you are good at the game does not make you infallible.
For example if sonic fox tweeted scorpion was broken no one would take it seriously. But just bc someone isn't always right doesn't mean that their take isn't valid.

You have said and done things that damaged your credibility to the point where people instantly have a preconception about your thread just by seeing your name. The "top player defense" doesn't work bc people don't find you credible anyway or even believe you. That's why people are asking for proof.


People do listen to what top players say but not just bc they are top players....bc they have valid points and arguments that they make.
I have literally only ever made the arguments about this games issues that those top players make.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
Show you work, then. Please include methodology and sample size.
This would require fuck tons of work and research but I very well might do it. I think if you were to do this you'd undeniably prove the trends in this game I've described as a whole.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
This is valid.



This isn't valid. Just bc you put in the time or you are good at the game does not make you infallible.
For example if sonic fox tweeted scorpion was broken no one would take it seriously. But just bc someone isn't always right doesn't mean that their take isn't valid.

You have said and done things that damaged your credibility to the point where people instantly have a preconception about your thread just by seeing your name. The "top player defense" doesn't work bc people don't find you credible anyway or even believe you. That's why people are asking for proof.


People do listen to what top players say but not just bc they are top players....bc they have valid points and arguments that they make.
Also this argument is backwards in regard to the second point. You have to be able to prove that those 1000's of hours of grinding don't mean anything. Of course this isn't gonna be perfectly so 100% of the time, but it is gonna be so more often than not yes? To argue otherwise is just to argue against logic and reality at that point.

As for the things that have "damaged my credibility", I still think this assertion is laughable. I was wrong about Fujin and that's it? Or are we talking about the lie that I "sold frame data" or any of the other bits of gossip about me from people who don't like me? This is ridiculous especially when I would beat the majority of people on this post in the game when I barely play at all anymore. I 110% understand what this game is about and what's going on in it, definitely more than the average TYM user, I get it that maybe my hostility towards the game is something people get rubbed the wrong way by but that doesn't mean I'm wrong as a whole.

Look at all the things I called within the first few months of the games release that have remained true. I called Liu being a broken top tier with almost no risk and all reward when people were claiming he was this poor honest character that was always risking his life all the time. I called it that wave dashing and dash cancelability after the dash buff would lead to imprecise, sloppy gameplay being just as effective as deliberate and considerate gameplay in terms of movement AND THAT'S TRUE, I called it that this would be the most community divisive mortal kombat game of the games since 9 and IT DEFINITELY IS. I called it that flawless blocking and all the OS's would basically entirely eliminate the yomi and emphasis on game knowledge and there is no doubt that that's the case with this game. I have been right with about 85% of my claims about the game. I've had multiple people in this community to me apologize for insulting me and degrading me over opinions and takes over a video game because I TURNED OUT TO BE RIGHT. People can say I'm not credible man, but I KNOW I am. I know what I'm talking about. Me being wrong about one character doesn't undo all that.
 

Savage8-8

Premium
Premium Supporter
Also this argument is backwards in regard to the second point. You have to be able to prove that those 1000's of hours of grinding don't mean anything. Of course this isn't gonna be perfectly so 100% of the time, but it is gonna be so more often than not yes? To argue otherwise is just to argue against logic and reality at that point.
I'm not saying it doesn't mean anything. I'm saying putting in 1000 hours does not make someone infallible. Meaning it doesn't mean that person is NEVER wrong no matter if most of the time the person is right.

As for the things that have "damaged my credibility", I still think this assertion is laughable. I was wrong about Fujin and that's it? Or are we talking about the lie that I "sold frame data" or any of the other bits of gossip about me from people who don't like me? This is ridiculous especially when I would beat the majority of people on this post in the game when I barely play at all anymore. I 110% understand what this game is about and what's going on in it, definitely more than the average TYM user, I get it that maybe my hostility towards the game is something people get rubbed the wrong way by but that doesn't mean I'm wrong as a whole.
I'm not just talking about the Fujin thing. You have made wild statements and assertions in the past. For example you claim (and I still think you believe this to this day) that "MK11 is the most unbalanced game in NRS history". Alot of the people on this site have played every NRS game and have been around long enough to know that statement is false. When you say things like that on a site like this it makes others question if you even played those games.

Also about being able to beat most of the people on this site.....you are a serial rage quitter. You even raged quit against me in a KL match. So it's hard to take you serious when you talk about the game. Especially when you talk down to others who don't agree with you.

Look at all the things I called within the first few months of the games release that have remained true. I called Liu being a broken top tier with almost no risk and all reward when people were claiming he was this poor honest character that was always risking his life all the time. I called it that wave dashing and dash cancelability after the dash buff would lead to imprecise, sloppy gameplay being just as effective as deliberate and considerate gameplay in terms of movement AND THAT'S TRUE, I called it that this would be the most community divisive mortal kombat game of the games since 9 and IT DEFINITELY IS. I called it that flawless blocking and all the OS's would basically entirely eliminate the yomi and emphasis on game knowledge and there is no doubt that that's the case with this game. I have been right with about 85% of my claims about the game. I've had multiple people in this community to me apologize for insulting me and degrading me over opinions and takes over a video game because I TURNED OUT TO BE RIGHT. People can say I'm not credible man, but I KNOW I am. I know what I'm talking about. Me being wrong about one character doesn't undo all that.
The things you are listing are not controversial. I've even said this is the most divisive game we have ever had. No one really disputes those claims. It's the other claims that people dispute.

One positive thing I will say is you damn sure promote discussion lol. When you keep it constructive you get less backlash.
 

1man3letters

Alpha Tarkatan - Moderator
Moderator
Premium Supporter
@Chernyy Volk if "unnamed top player A though D" from your DMs said scorpion wasn't a shitter would you make a thread saying as much as apologizing for the 75464 and a half threads you made about the characters you play being shit?

Im guessing you wouldn't

Imo you are one the biggest assclowns in this community, you talk out your ass and then just talk more BS to cover to all.

Like when you where on Reo's podcast for while, that shit was painful.to listen to, I'm glad can listen to that show again now

Hopefully you find some cop on with age
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
This would require fuck tons of work and research but I very well might do it. I think if you were to do this you'd undeniably prove the trends in this game I've described as a whole.
Please do. Otherwise your decrying of others using anecdotal evidence while not providing data of your own comes off as condescending and conceited.
So you can't quote me. Right.
I don't need to. It's in the thread.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Also this argument is backwards in regard to the second point. You have to be able to prove that those 1000's of hours of grinding don't mean anything. Of course this isn't gonna be perfectly so 100% of the time, but it is gonna be so more often than not yes? To argue otherwise is just to argue against logic and reality at that point.

As for the things that have "damaged my credibility", I still think this assertion is laughable. I was wrong about Fujin and that's it? Or are we talking about the lie that I "sold frame data" or any of the other bits of gossip about me from people who don't like me? This is ridiculous especially when I would beat the majority of people on this post in the game when I barely play at all anymore. I 110% understand what this game is about and what's going on in it, definitely more than the average TYM user, I get it that maybe my hostility towards the game is something people get rubbed the wrong way by but that doesn't mean I'm wrong as a whole.

Look at all the things I called within the first few months of the games release that have remained true. I called Liu being a broken top tier with almost no risk and all reward when people were claiming he was this poor honest character that was always risking his life all the time. I called it that wave dashing and dash cancelability after the dash buff would lead to imprecise, sloppy gameplay being just as effective as deliberate and considerate gameplay in terms of movement AND THAT'S TRUE, I called it that this would be the most community divisive mortal kombat game of the games since 9 and IT DEFINITELY IS. I called it that flawless blocking and all the OS's would basically entirely eliminate the yomi and emphasis on game knowledge and there is no doubt that that's the case with this game. I have been right with about 85% of my claims about the game. I've had multiple people in this community to me apologize for insulting me and degrading me over opinions and takes over a video game because I TURNED OUT TO BE RIGHT. People can say I'm not credible man, but I KNOW I am. I know what I'm talking about. Me being wrong about one character doesn't undo all that.
That's a whole lot of props fishing
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Also this argument is backwards in regard to the second point. You have to be able to prove that those 1000's of hours of grinding don't mean anything. Of course this isn't gonna be perfectly so 100% of the time, but it is gonna be so more often than not yes? To argue otherwise is just to argue against logic and reality at that point.

As for the things that have "damaged my credibility", I still think this assertion is laughable. I was wrong about Fujin and that's it? Or are we talking about the lie that I "sold frame data" or any of the other bits of gossip about me from people who don't like me? This is ridiculous especially when I would beat the majority of people on this post in the game when I barely play at all anymore. I 110% understand what this game is about and what's going on in it, definitely more than the average TYM user, I get it that maybe my hostility towards the game is something people get rubbed the wrong way by but that doesn't mean I'm wrong as a whole.

Look at all the things I called within the first few months of the games release that have remained true. I called Liu being a broken top tier with almost no risk and all reward when people were claiming he was this poor honest character that was always risking his life all the time. I called it that wave dashing and dash cancelability after the dash buff would lead to imprecise, sloppy gameplay being just as effective as deliberate and considerate gameplay in terms of movement AND THAT'S TRUE, I called it that this would be the most community divisive mortal kombat game of the games since 9 and IT DEFINITELY IS. I called it that flawless blocking and all the OS's would basically entirely eliminate the yomi and emphasis on game knowledge and there is no doubt that that's the case with this game. I have been right with about 85% of my claims about the game. I've had multiple people in this community to me apologize for insulting me and degrading me over opinions and takes over a video game because I TURNED OUT TO BE RIGHT. People can say I'm not credible man, but I KNOW I am. I know what I'm talking about. Me being wrong about one character doesn't undo all that.
If time put in equals correctness, was Burrito Vorhees correct about Fujin needing buffs?
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
@Chernyy Volk if "unnamed top player A though D" from your DMs said scorpion wasn't a shitter would you make a thread saying as much as apologizing for the 75464 and a half threads you made about the characters you play being shit?

Im guessing you wouldn't

Imo you are one the biggest assclowns in this community, you talk out your ass and then just talk more BS to cover to all.

Like when you where on Reo's podcast for while, that shit was painful.to listen to, I'm glad can listen to that show again now

Hopefully you find some cop on with age
I acknowledge there are people who think Scorpion isn't bad. Those people are also completely arguing against the stats on that front. I don't know a single SCORPION MAIN though, especially who does or has played this game at tournament level, that thinks he can even stand a prayer of winning a tournament unless he wins the MU lottery on his path to grand finals.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
If time put in equals correctness, was Burrito Vorhees correct about Fujin needing buffs?
I'm just curious, did you actually read Burrito's Fujin buff list? Cause HIS point wasn't Fujin is bad, his point is all Fujin is is B2 and Sky Wakka and it'd be nice if he could do more than that and also maybe B2 and Sky Wakka need nerfs cause their toxic designs on the game. We want buffs not just to make characters better, but so we have more complexity and more options. Why play a game with a kustom system like this when it's a bill for most of the cast because one option is just mandatory or so overwhelmingly superior?
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
I'm not saying it doesn't mean anything. I'm saying putting in 1000 hours does not make someone infallible. Meaning it doesn't mean that person is NEVER wrong no matter if most of the time the person is right.



I'm not just talking about the Fujin thing. You have made wild statements and assertions in the past. For example you claim (and I still think you believe this to this day) that "MK11 is the most unbalanced game in NRS history". Alot of the people on this site have played every NRS game and have been around long enough to know that statement is false. When you say things like that on a site like this it makes others question if you even played those games.

Also about being able to beat most of the people on this site.....you are a serial rage quitter. You even raged quit against me in a KL match. So it's hard to take you serious when you talk about the game. Especially when you talk down to others who don't agree with you.



The things you are listing are not controversial. I've even said this is the most divisive game we have ever had. No one really disputes those claims. It's the other claims that people dispute.

One positive thing I will say is you damn sure promote discussion lol. When you keep it constructive you get less backlash.
I am not the only one who believes this is the most imbalanced game in NRS history since MK9 (which is what I said exactly btw). Characters, more than ever, sometimes can't do basic elementary shit or make fundamental reads while the top tiers are so powerful that their players literally don't have to learn the game beyond learning their character.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I am not the only one who believes this is the most imbalanced game in NRS history since MK9 (which is what I said exactly btw). Characters, more than ever, sometimes can't do basic elementary shit or make fundamental reads while the top tiers are so powerful that their players literally don't have to learn the game beyond learning their character.
You didn't even play MK9.. You have no idea how imbalanced the game was.

You just spent 10 posts saying "I don't just base my arguments off 'top player said X', they are my own opinions based on careful first-hand experience and evidence", but then immediately gave an opinion about a game you weren't here for. Based on.. What? :cool:
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
You didn't even play MK9.. You have no idea how imbalanced the game was.

You just spent 10 posts saying "I don't just base my arguments off 'top player said X', they are my own opinions based on careful evidence", but then immediately gave an opinion about a game you weren't here for. Based on.. What?
I actually was Crimson LOL

Do you have stats btw supporting the game was super imbalanced beyond having dead characters like Kano by it's end life?
 

RoboCop

The future of law enforcement.
Administrator
Premium Supporter
I actually was Crimson LOL

Do you have stats btw supporting the game was super imbalanced beyond having dead characters like Kano by it's end life?
The best source I can post is Billstickers' awesome MU chart. Just look at the number of generally agreed-upon 7\3 and worse matchups that existed. And compare the top 10's matchups with the bottom 10s.

 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I actually was Crimson LOL

Do you have stats btw supporting the game was super imbalanced beyond having dead characters like Kano by it's end life?
If you have to ask, you've already invalidated every argument you might make about that game.

We had characters whose pokes were 0 or negative.. On hit. In MK11 people complain about not having fast enough mids or certain attacks not jailing. That was the least of some of the MK9 characters' concerns. Meanwhile Cyrax does up to 88% life on a touch with one bar and without spending a 1-shot resource like X-ray. Or 80% into a +double digits standing reset that gives him a free safe jump into more pressure (with guaranteed 8% chip assuming you block correctly, rather than getting hit by the command grab — which leads into more guaranteed pressure — the safe overhead, or the low). And he could jail into it with a D4 that was +16 on hit and 0 on block.

Cyrax or Kenshi would easily destroy Jacqui, Cetrion, and all of the top-tier characters that people attempt to paint as "broken" in this game, and both were arguably not even the game's best character.
 
They should import MK9 Cyrax to MK11 so people can finally stop saying it doesn't have anti airs.
Of course, they still would, but...