Toms conversation podcast with Tigerzz

[Rude]

I'm just curious, did you actually read Burrito's Fujin buff list? Cause HIS point wasn't Fujin is bad, his point is all Fujin is is B2 and Sky Wakka and it'd be nice if he could do more than that and also maybe B2 and Sky Wakka need nerfs cause their toxic designs on the game. We want buffs not just to make characters better, but so we have more complexity and more options. Why play a game with a kustom system like this when it's a bill for most of the cast because one option is just mandatory or so overwhelmingly superior?

That's a nice option select, but Fujin didn't need them, obviously. Simply because people grind the game extensively doesn't mean they are always right. Which is a point you keep defaulting back to when challenged. Top players think x, so x is objectively true.

 

[Rude]

I am not the only one who believes this is the most imbalanced game in NRS history since MK9 (which is what I said exactly btw). Characters, more than ever, sometimes can't do basic elementary shit or make fundamental reads while the top tiers are so powerful that their players literally don't have to learn the game beyond learning their character.

Congratulations, your fallacy is argument ad populum.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

The best source I can post is Billstickers' awesome MU chart. Just look at the number of generally agreed-upon 7\3 and worse matchups that existed. And compare the top 10's matchups with the bottom 10s.

I've seen this MU chart and I'm not denying it's validity but it's still not statistical proof gathered from actual tournament play, which suggests this game wasn't as imbalanced as it appears. Looking at the top 16's of this games EVO's alone contradicts this picture.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Congratulations, your fallacy is argument ad populum.

What I just said is a mechanical reality of the game, what?

 

[Chernyy Volk]

If you have to ask, you've already invalidated every argument you might make about that game.

We had characters whose pokes were 0 or negative.. On hit. In MK11 people complain about not having fast enough mids or certain attacks not jailing. That was the least of some of the MK9 characters' concerns. Meanwhile Cyrax does up to 88% life on a touch with one bar and without spending a 1-shot resource like X-ray. Or 80% into a +double digits standing reset that gives him a free safe jump into more pressure (with guaranteed 8% chip assuming you block correctly, rather than getting hit by the command grab — which leads into more guaranteed pressure — the safe overhead, or the low). And he could jail into it with a D4 that was +16 on hit and 0 on block.

Cyrax or Kenshi would easily destroy Jacqui, Cetrion, and all of the top-tier characters that people attempt to paint as "broken" in this game, and both were arguably not even the game's best character.

Crimson, this doesn't mean the game wasn't balanced. I don't think you understand what the idea of a balanced game means. You're complaining about power levels, but that doesn't mean the game wasn't balanced.

 

[RoboCop]

I've seen this MU chart and I'm not denying it's validity but it's still not statistical proof gathered from actual tournament play, which suggests this game wasn't as imbalanced as it appears. Looking at the top 16's of this games EVO's alone contradicts this picture.

So you're saying that if a tournament player wins with a character, that overrides any previous MU knowledge? It's not just top players grinding and overcoming bad matchups?

How does any of that suggest the game was more balanced than previously thought?

 

[Chernyy Volk]

So you're saying that if a tournament player wins with a character, that overrides any previous MU knowledge? It's not just top players grinding and overcomming bad matchups?

How does any of that suggest the game was more balanced than previously thought?

If the top players can grind and overcome the bad MU's the game isn't that imbalanced. Sub Zero has more top 8's in MK9 than Cyrax and Sub was considered lower mid tier or some shit right? That suggests the power levels weren't really THAT bad in terms of disparity. Comparatively, there are MU's in MK11 where characters can't do shit even when they get their opportunities. You can see this in tournament results for MK11 too, certain characters just can't even break top 8's without a specific MU path to get them there.

 

[RoboCop]

If the top players can grind and overcome the bad MU's the game isn't that imbalanced. Sub Zero has more top 8's in MK9 than Cyrax and Sub was considered lower mid tier or some shit right? That suggests the power levels weren't really THAT bad in terms of disparity. Comparatively, there are MU's in MK11 where characters can't do shit even when they get their opportunities. You can see this in tournament results for MK11 too, certain characters just can't even break top 8's without a specific MU path to get them there.

I think you may want to define what balance means to you before continuing this discussion with anyone else. I'm reluctant to go by tournament results because I have no idea what state the game was in at the time of any given tournament. That chart is based on the final patch and is generally agreed upon by the community, including competitive players. I don't know how anyone can look at that and see it as "balanced".

One of my favorite videos is of GGA Jeremiah's Sheeva taking out Cat's Kabal (link). That doesn't undo the fact that the matchup is easily 7/3 in Kabal's favor.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

I think you may want to define what balance means to you before continuing this discussion with anyone else. I'm reluctant to go by tournament results because I have no idea what state the game was in at the time of any given tournament. That chart is based on the final patch and is generally agreed upon by the community, including competitive players. I don't know how anyone can look at that and see it as "balanced".

One of my favorite videos is of GGA Jeremiah's Sheeva taking out Cat's Kabal (link). That doesn't undo the fact that the matchup is easily 7/3 in Kabal's favor.

Balance to me means, how is the power level distributed amongst the cast? In MKX, EVERYONE when they got their chances could do work. Yes, some characters were clearly better than others, but no one in the game was just fucking DOA. Even in MK9, a TOURNAMENT WIN at the highest level of a 7/3 MU alone suggests it can't even be that bad. A 7/3 means in a tournament setting it's basically impossible right? UNWINNABLE, your character has no options. I just disagree with this idea fundamentally I guess.

 

[RoboCop]

Balance to me means, how is the power level distributed amongst the cast? In MKX, EVERYONE when they got their chances could do work. Yes, some characters were clearly better than others, but no one in the game was just fucking DOA. Even in MK9, a TOURNAMENT WIN at the highest level of a 7/3 MU alone suggests it can't even be that bad. A 7/3 means in a tournament setting it's basically impossible right? UNWINNABLE, your character has no options. I just disagree with this idea fundamentally I guess.

Based on the definition of "the power level is distributed evenly amongst the cast", I can't think of any balanced game.

I see the matchups as percentages. An even 5/5 matchup means it's a 50/50 shot. So, a 7/3 would mean that players of equal skill should see w/l ratios that reflect that 7/3 split, or 70% chance for Player A to take the win. Even a 9.9/0.1 is not unwinnable; you're talking about 10/0, which doesn't exist in any game I'm aware of.

I see that a lot whenever anyone posts about X-Com. It's always "how did I miss this 95% shot?!" Well, you landed in that tiny 5% resulting in a missed shot. 95 is not 100% and neither is 7/3, 8/2, or even 9/1.

 

[Rude]

What I just said is a mechanical reality of the game, what?

"I am not the only one that believes that this is the most imbalanced game in NRS history since MK9."

Also, a 7/3 isn't unwinnable.

What it means is that if two characters play ten games at the highest level and one character wins 7 and the other wins 3, it is highly in favor of the character that won 7. It's a number based on a hypothetical scenario.

That it is 7/3 and not 10-0 means it is not unwinnable.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

We're not talking abo

Based on the definition of "the power level is distributed evenly amongst the cast", I can't think of any balanced game.

I see the matchups as percentages. An even 5/5 matchup means it's a 50/50 shot. So, a 7/3 would mean that players of equal skill should see w/l ratios that reflect that 7/3 split, or 70% chance for Player A to take the win. Even a 9.9/0.1 is not unwinnable; you're talking about 10/0, which doesn't exist in any game I'm aware of.

I see that a lot whenever anyone posts about X-Com. It's always "how did I miss this 95% shot?!" Well, you landed in that tiny 5% resulting in a missed shot. 95 is not 100% and neither is 7/3, 8/2, or even 9/1.

A perfectly balanced game is obviously impossible, we're just talking about here making it so as much as possible. If everyone has a high power level in their niche, that's typically going to lead to a higher degree of balance except for unaccounted for toxic interactions in gameplay that just completely delete options. MK11 is the worst at this because it's nothing but the top tiers deleting options and neutral from the bottom 75% of the cast.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

"I am not the only one that believes that this is the most imbalanced game in NRS history since MK9."

Also, a 7/3 isn't unwinnable.

What it means is that if two characters play ten games at the highest level and one character wins 7 and the other wins 3, it is highly in favor of the character that won 7. It's a number based on a hypothetical scenario.

That it is 7/3 and not 10-0 means it is not unwinnable.

Are you assuming equal skill level and full MU knowledge here?

 

[Rude]

Are you assuming equal skill level and full MU knowledge here?

So you just completely glossed over that "highest level" part, huh?

I'm assuming nothing. This is what a match up number traditionally means.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

So you just completely glossed over that "highest level" part, huh?

I'm assuming nothing. This is what a match up number traditionally means.

7-3 MU becomes pretty bad though in a 2/3 format which I think most pools for this game are still ran in no? That one game makes a difference IMO.

Save the fact this game has MU's worse than 7-3. Any MU where a character just can't evade or derail the tracking properties of Sheeva's stomp just loses. It becomes looping free damage (like on Kollector). I don't even think a scenario exists in older NRS games in their current states that leads to things like this. I guess I should say, my point more is is that at the highest level this game probably has as many 8-2's and 9-1's with the top 5 characters against the rest of the roster because, unlike MKX, or MK9 in some cases, or Inj1 in some cases, the chracters in MK11 who are lacking or bad can't even capitalize on their chances in a way that's meaningful. They have to out-decide those top tiers 5-1 or more just by virtue of how skewed the power distribution and how unfinished the majority of character designs in MK11 are. What is Skarlet ever gonna do against Jacqui that at any point outweighs anything Jacqui or Fujin does beyond when she has Fatal Blow which requires her to be losing to have?

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I guess I should say, my point more is is that at the highest level this game probably has as many 8-2's and 9-1's with the top 5 characters against the rest of the roster because, unlike MKX, or MK9 in some cases, or Inj1 in some cases, the chracters in MK11 who are lacking or bad can't even capitalize on their chances in a way that's meaningful.

You are making it obvious that you're unfamiliar with both of the early games.

It's not uncommon to see supposed low-tier characters used deep into tournaments, even two years into this game. In MK9 no one was pulling out CSZ or Stryker two years in to try their luck in a Top 8. Yes, there are MK11 characters like Shao and Rambo that you'll likely never see, but no one is shocked to see a Sonya or Robocop deep into a high-profile event. And characters just above them (Sindel, Skarlet, Baraka, etc) have shown up infinitely more than you would have seen Jade, Sindel, etc. 2 years into MK9. It's not even close.

 

[Rude]

7-3 MU becomes pretty bad though in a 2/3 format which I think most pools for this game are still ran in no? That one game makes a difference IMO.

Save the fact this game has MU's worse than 7-3. Any MU where a character just can't evade or derail the tracking properties of Sheeva's stomp just loses. It becomes looping free damage (like on Kollector). I don't even think a scenario exists in older NRS games in their current states that leads to things like this. I guess I should say, my point more is is that at the highest level this game probably has as many 8-2's and 9-1's with the top 5 characters against the rest of the roster because, unlike MKX, or MK9 in some cases, or Inj1 in some cases, the chracters in MK11 who are lacking or bad can't even capitalize on their chances in a way that's meaningful. They have to out-decide those top tiers 5-1 or more just by virtue of how skewed the power distribution and how unfinished the majority of character designs in MK11 are. What is Skarlet ever gonna do against Jacqui that at any point outweighs anything Jacqui or Fujin does beyond when she has Fatal Blow which requires her to be losing to have?

Every game has bad match ups. It would be magical christmas land to think that every match up should be even. I've never seen Skarlet vs Jacqui at the highest possible level, but even if it is 9-1(and that feels like a hyperbolic claim to me), that 1 means that the match up- as we traditionally define match up numbers - isn't unwinnable.

 

[Ilthuain]

...I guess I should say, my point more is is that at the highest level this game probably has as many 8-2's and 9-1's with the top 5 characters against the rest of the roster because, unlike MKX, or MK9 in some cases, or Inj1 in some cases, the chracters in MK11 who are lacking or bad can't even capitalize on their chances in a way that's meaningful...

lol no.

If something like Kabal vs. Kano in MK9 is a 7-3, there is no way anything in MK11 is an 8-2 or a 9-1.

Seriously? A 9-1?

 

[Rude]

I'm genuinely curious if Cherny can show us footage of one of these 9-1s at the highest level.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

Sounds like the only mu that's even remotely a 9-1 is Sheeva vs Kollector and it's due to what is effectively a bug.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Sounds like the only mu that's even remotely a 9-1 is Sheeva vs Kollector and it's due to what is effectively a bug.

Nightwolf/Sheeva is the same thing. He literally can't evade the tracking of the stomp. It's actually garbage lol

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Every game has bad match ups. It would be magical christmas land to think that every match up should be even. I've never seen Skarlet vs Jacqui at the highest possible level, but even if it is 9-1(and that feels like a hyperbolic claim to me), that 1 means that the match up- as we traditionally define match up numbers - isn't unwinnable.

"Every game has bad matchups" isn't an actual argument. That's not the point, it's that the game has tons of bad MU's mostly defined by a majority of the cast being lacking, fucked by the kustom variation system or the characters can't do basic fundamental shit period against a top tier. MK is consistently the only franchise where this kind of disparity is just the norm, especially in the modern age.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

lol no.

If something like Kabal vs. Kano in MK9 is a 7-3, there is no way anything in MK11 is an 8-2 or a 9-1.

Seriously? A 9-1?

What is Robocop supposed to do to actually out decision an Upgraded Jacqui or a meta Fujin? What can Robocop actually do better than those characters? How many more right decisions does Robocop have to make than the Jacqui or the Fujin? Just thinking about these things logically on paper tells the story man.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

Nightwolf/Sheeva is the same thing. He literally can't evade the tracking of the stomp. It's actually garbage lol

I would also consider that a bug that needs fixing then.

 

[hkriderz]

I was enjoying just reading this thread but I had to comment on this absolutely insane discussion about how MK11 is just as unbalanced as MK9 lmaoo. Yeah a game defined with bugs, literal unplayable matchups and characters so broke they'd probably be insta-banned day 1 if the game was still played competitively.

We're comparing Sheeva doing 10% almost unavoidable damage to a game where characters like Cyrax, Jax, and Smoke could literally take 90-100% of your life on any touch if you don't have 2 bars to get out. Bars that don't auto-regen btw

There was Sonya mashing infinte armor ex-cartwheel and 10 frame instant air divekicks into insane mixups and restanding into looping plus pressure, Kabal zoning you all day until you get in and he has the best rushdown in the game, Kenshi literally making so many characters unplayable against him because they couldn't possibly get in on him, and he still had good blockstrings, did 40% damage meterless and sends you fullscreen...

But yeah, definitely just as unbalanced as a game that gives each character 9-10 specials and allow them to make whatever variation they want, lower overall damage, so many comeback mechanics and KBs and where the worst characters in the game are like B tier and still very playable. There's no matchups that are anywhere past 6-4 or 7-3 in this game while MK9 had literal 9-1s. What a ridiculous comparison lol