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The New Top Tiers [POST EVO-PATCH]

Enexemander

Enexemander

A Hitbox Pirate - YARRR -
REO has that rare dry troll. He's trolling his ass off, but he plays it straight.
On the real, REO is super pissed about the Erron Black changes so we're getting more troll REO than normal (which I love. Troll REO is best REO, free).
 
LawAbidingCitizen

LawAbidingCitizen

Bomb Setups & Ball Rolls(Mileena/Cyrax)
lordlosh said:
The big rant against Liu Kang in twitter by top players continues.
Tweets from twitter which i agree strongly:




And this is from Magician(Pro player for people who dont know)
[QUOTE]Why the fk is Liu a f*ing character. Everytime im playing KL, a Liu just comes to mess it up. Liu is broken especially with how much damage he does and when you get close to killing him you are the one who dies. Seriously either nerf him as much as Erron or just remove him.[/QUOTE]
He has the most imba KB+FB things arround. He can combo on either of them for some insane damage. Its fu* ridiculous people to get punished for killing your opponent life. Its a free win for him if he goes below 30% and you are in the range of 500, its just a free kill for him.

And a lot of people start questioning what NRS is doing exactly? How is that proper balancing? They are just changing the guard at the top. How is this balance if you just change Sonya with Liu Kang And Cassie with Kung Lao for example ?

Liu Kang right now have it absolutely all. Something which even Sonya not poses pre patch.

Can someone pls explain me how you post this ridiculous Tier List with Sonya and Erron Black at top character and Liu Kang way below them, and Kung Lao so low?
Click to expand...
Liu Kang has always been in high tier A/A+ but isn't in S in my opinion. Pro players have always complained about matchups they have trouble with or losing to someone they have beef with.
Liu received nerfs along with the universal buff to jailing from pokes. He has a gap after F333/F3 and can't really use stance cancel or low from it because its punishable. He has gaps on many strings.
For the most part the roster has been brought closer together and its made every character viable.
 
M2Dave

M2Dave

Zoning Master
HoangS-Z said:
Liu Kang is the new S tier character? Which variation? The same old Luo Han Qian or the post patch Wu Shi Legend?
Click to expand...
Liu Kang players still seem to prefer Louhan Quan over Wu Shi Legend.

SwiftEagle said:
I would appreciate it if somebody could explain to me how to break out of Liu Kang's F4 string after his last attack (U3). The characters I use don't have teleports so how do I counter it if a Liu Kang player keeps spamming it? I can't poke out of it at all. Are you supposed to just block and wait until he starts throwing fireballs? I can't jump out of it either.
Click to expand...
There is a 10 frame gap between f+4,3 and u+3 so you can interrupt, preferably with a low poke so you do not get parried.

Hellbringer said:
Don't you have your own opinion? Looks like u always bandwagon and ride on tweets from pro players.
Click to expand...
I am sometimes interested in the complaints because they may indicate that someone, most likely a training partner, is currently beating most of the pro players with a certain character, which could eventually have an effect on the tier list.
 
LawAbidingCitizen

LawAbidingCitizen

Bomb Setups & Ball Rolls(Mileena/Cyrax)
SwiftEagle said:
I would appreciate it if somebody could explain to me how to break out of Liu Kang's F4 string after his last attack (U3). The characters I use don't have teleports so how do I counter it if a Liu Kang player keeps spamming it? I can't poke out of it at all. Are you supposed to just block and wait until he starts throwing fireballs? I can't jump out of it either.
Click to expand...
M2Dave's response is correct there is a 10f gap in F43(gap)U3. But I find its better to only punish that gap once or twice in sets. Normally what liu Kang players do is mix it up with F43U3/F43xxParry and F43xxEXfireball the fire ball will catch a D3/D4 like he suggested but both the parry and low fireball are unsafe if you wait to punish on recovery or duck the second fireball. And they are both reactable. If you are good at teaching F43U3 can't do anything to you since you will only have to deal with chip but when they use 3/4 options you will come out ahead since you are punishing everything but U3 plus frames on reactions.
 
L

lordlosh

Apprentice
Exactly this move is insanely hard to be punished in Online sets. You will eat KB all over the place. Even Pro at offline tournament f**** up and eat the KB.
On paper its punishable, but because of block stun is really hard.
Also he have tons of other option, and you are kinda f**** most of the time.
I dont agree with LawAbidingCitizen at this one at all.
Most of the time he will block your attempt, because of the block stun, even in offline. Because of the block stun its impposible to punish his F43, low fireball amplified, because of the block stun. Atleast i cant with Sub Zero with his 1-2, and that is a 9frame move. I have hard time punish the same move even if its not amplified.
He also can use the parry, D3/D4, he have ton of mixed potential, and to punish the F43, U3, you have to be ready on the button and to go for it and if he decide to go for anything else you are f*.
Even if im 100% ready and he goes for that move, most of the time i can get him with D1, 1,2 is risky as hell, and in online i will miss it 10 out of 10.
And if you flawless block, the window to punish this move its extremely small.
Sub Zero F4 for example if i flawless block and even if im half asleep i can flawless block attack. The window there is huge.

The whole thing that Liu Kang players use to downplay this character is that he whiff on attack(this depend on the person that play the character) and that this move has a gap. Has a gap my a****. You have 203482842848284 safe option for this move, and it[/ICODE]s not even 50/50.
So if the player is good, he will just mix his s**** and good luck punish that move.
 
Hellbringer

Hellbringer

1 2 3 drink
FreshFromTheDeli said:
Kabal is the only character who is safe on every string.

Let that sink in.

Jump 2 is amazing. Mixups that are fuzzyable but still scary to deal with it. Massive range with Back 1 combo starter. Full screen punish Fatal Blow.

Only thing he lacks is below average damage. He is the best character that no one plays.

#facts
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Below average damage? I think thats not a fact lol
Being safe on every string doesnt mean its never your turn, unless you play against meanstreak :eek:
 
Hellbringer

Hellbringer

1 2 3 drink
lordlosh said:
Exactly this move is insanely hard to be punished in Online sets. You will eat KB all over the place. Even Pro at offline tournament f**** up and eat the KB.
On paper its punishable, but because of block stun is really hard.
Also he have tons of other option, and you are kinda f**** most of the time.
I dont agree with LawAbidingCitizen at this one at all.
Most of the time he will block your attempt, because of the block stun, even in offline. Because of the block stun its impposible to punish his F43, low fireball amplified, because of the block stun. Atleast i cant with Sub Zero with his 1-2, and that is a 9frame move. I have hard time punish the same move even if its not amplified.
He also can use the parry, D3/D4, he have ton of mixed potential, and to punish the F43, U3, you have to be ready on the button and to go for it and if he decide to go for anything else you are f*.
Even if im 100% ready and he goes for that move, most of the time i can get him with D1, 1,2 is risky as hell, and in online i will miss it 10 out of 10.
And if you flawless block, the window to punish this move its extremely small.
Sub Zero F4 for example if i flawless block and even if im half asleep i can flawless block attack. The window there is huge.

The whole thing that Liu Kang players use to downplay this character is that he whiff on attack(this depend on the person that play the character) and that this move has a gap. Has a gap my a****. You have 203482842848284 safe option for this move, and it[/ICODE]s not even 50/50.
So if the player is good, he will just mix his s**** and good luck punish that move.
Click to expand...
I dont understand what u say with interupting f43u3 with d1, you say you can punish him most of the time but online you will miss 10 out of 10? How bad of a connection are you playing on my dude?
 
L

lordlosh

Apprentice
I said the safest way to interupt F43U3 for me(Sub Zero) is to simply go d1, but i don`t gain much for that. On practice and offline matches i can punish it most of the time with 1,2 combo, but in offline you will eat a lot of KB because of that.
The gap is 10frame, and 1,2 puch its 9 frame i think.

My connection is perfect, but online always have some delay. And 99,99% you are playing against sh*** wifi warriors.
 
Hellbringer

Hellbringer

1 2 3 drink
lordlosh said:
I said the safest way to interupt F43U3 for me(Sub Zero) is to simply go d1, but i don`t gain much for that. On practice and offline matches i can punish it most of the time with 1,2 combo, but in offline you will eat a lot of KB because of that.
The gap is 10frame, and 1,2 puch its 9 frame i think.

My connection is perfect, but online always have some delay. And 99,99% you are playing against sh*** wifi warriors.
Click to expand...
I think alot of times ppl on tym like to blame their losses on the wifi warrirors too much imo. Just because u have bad excecution, cant use wifi warrios as excuse all the time. Yours is just a good example.
 
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lordlosh

Apprentice
Go watch some pro reps then and see how many pro eat KB from this exact combo. In a pro level it`s very rare to see Liu Kang to f**** that string and get punish.
I guess they have bad execution as mine. :D
And yeah wifi warriors are harmful for the game.
If you wanna play any game, go buy yourself a cable.
 
LawAbidingCitizen

LawAbidingCitizen

Bomb Setups & Ball Rolls(Mileena/Cyrax)
lordlosh said:
I said the safest way to interupt F43U3 for me(Sub Zero) is to simply go d1, but i don`t gain much for that. On practice and offline matches i can punish it most of the time with 1,2 combo, but in offline you will eat a lot of KB because of that.
The gap is 10frame, and 1,2 puch its 9 frame i think.

My connection is perfect, but online always have some delay. And 99,99% you are playing against sh*** wifi warriors.
Click to expand...
Liu kang's mix is 100% punishable:

F43U3 has a gap a 10f gap
F43xxExFireball is very punishable by waiting and ducking the last fireball and its reactable.
F43xxParry is absolutely punishable if you wait and has close to 30f of recovery.
F4 - Throw is punishable as well there is a delay before the throw that you can react to by Ducking and doin any starter or D2 KB which all punish it.

I don't focus on punishing the gap in F43U3 because 3 of the 4 options will beat me out if I focus on that.

Instead I wait for the other 3 Throw/Parry/EXFireball. Once you know what to do and its muscle memory I promise you can have a 75% success when countering LHQ Liu Kang. My way is a 3/4 chance to punish compared to 1/4 that everyone recommended by punishing gap.

Go into practice and set the AI(liu kang) to record on slot 1 doing F43U3, Slot 2 doing F43 xx Parry, Slot 3 doing F43xxEX-Fireball and F4xxThrow. Set it to hidden playback and go to practice options and set distance to close.
Do this until you can punish the 3 options I've named and explained. I don't recommend poking in that gap either since you are not getting much from it and liu Kang is getting a low risk high reward turnout from your response. Instead punish all 3 of those other options which are fairly easy to punish after practicing.

Maybe my brother @PreNerf_ can explain better?
@Kindred
 
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Hellbringer

Hellbringer

1 2 3 drink
lordlosh said:
Go watch some pro reps then and see how many pro eat KB from this exact combo. In a pro level it`s very rare to see Liu Kang to f**** that string and get punish.
I guess they have bad execution as mine. :D
And yeah wifi warriors are harmful for the game.
If you wanna play any game, go buy yourself a cable.
Click to expand...
No links from twitter, youtube to proove your point?
 
WhamBamThanxSam

WhamBamThanxSam

Noob
LawAbidingCitizen said:
Liu kang's mix is 100% punishable:

F43U3 has a gap a 10f gap
F43xxExFireball is very punishable by waiting and ducking the last fireball and its reactable.
F43xxParry is absolutely punishable if you wait and has close to 30f of recovery.
F4 - Throw is punishable as well there is a delay before the throw that you can react to by Ducking and doin any starter or D2 KB which all punish it.

I don't focus on punishing the gap in F43U3 because 3 of the 4 options will beat me out if I focus on that.

Instead I wait for the other 3 Throw/Parry/EXFireball. Once you know what to do and its muscle memory I promise you can have a 75% success when countering LHQ Liu Kang. My way is a 3/4 chance to punish compared to 1/4 that everyone recommended by punishing gap.

Go into practice and set the AI(liu kang) to record on slot 1 doing F43U3, Slot 2 doing F43 xx Parry, Slot 3 doing F43xxEX-Fireball and F4xxThrow. Set it to hidden playback and go to practice options and set distance to close.
Do this until you can punish the 3 options I've named and explained. I don't recommend poking in that gap either since you are not getting much from it and liu Kang is getting a low risk high reward turnout from your response. Instead punish all 3 of those other options which are fairly easy to punish after practicing.

Maybe my brother @PreNerf_ can explain better?
@Kindred
Click to expand...
Is anybody arguing that it isn't punishable? I think the problem is its 100% guess. Sure you can poke or d2 the gap maybe once or twice, but one bad guess and you eat a huge punish from the parry.
It comes down to 2 options: Do you want to try to poke and risk getting blown up by parry or eat a fireball, or do you wait? If you wait and he does U3 and you don't flawless block you are now at negative frames and back in the mix.
 
LawAbidingCitizen

LawAbidingCitizen

Bomb Setups & Ball Rolls(Mileena/Cyrax)
WhamBamThanxSam said:
Is anybody arguing that it isn't punishable? I think the problem is its 100% guess. Sure you can poke or d2 the gap maybe once or twice, but one bad guess and you eat a huge punish from the parry.
It comes down to 2 options: Do you want to try to poke and risk getting blown up by parry or eat a fireball, or do you wait? If you wait and he does U3 and you don't flawless block you are now at negative frames and back in the mix.
Click to expand...
It looks Like you didn't read my post! Some here who quoted my post said they couldn't punish it, only with D1!

You should not be poking on Liu Kang's 10f gap between F43(10fgap)U3

You should be waiting for Parry, Throw and Amped Fireball. Because all 3 of those are punishable and reactable. If you are focusing on poking you can't punish the rest.
If you are poking its a 25% chance to succeed at punishing Liu Kang but if you are waiting and reacting to those very punishable options its a 75% chance to succeed.

Your problem is that ITS a guess? Well every character has mixups that force guess in many forms: number of hit guess, staggers, 50/50's, Throws, strike/throw guess, tick throws and frame traps.
But your problem shouldn't be guess because you can have a better chance to win by playing the MU correctly. If you are trying to poke instead of wait and bait then I'm sure it feels OP.
If you must punish the F43U3 gap (its out of your favor unless your opponent displays patterns) then by all means use your 7-9f starters instead of poking. That way at least you get a full combo instead of handing him his turn back.

Here is an example of what to do vs LHQ Liu Kang. I have it set to hidden playback so there is no way I can know what LK is gonna do. So proof you can punish him consistently and hard.
Tip: don't punish the gap in F43U3 a lot, just do it seldomly just to scare them and condition them to start using parry/Fireball/Stagger.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1163504254943813632

Frame Data:

F43xxparry is -18 and punishable by almost anything I did it with a 13f mid in video.
F43xxExFireball is -24 very punishable even by Kotals F2.
F4xxThrow is -36 on wiff, same concept as others, wait and you will see the throw. Its very easy to punish just hold down and do either: starter or D2 KB.

@lordlosh

Your welcome
 
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Evil Canadian

Evil Canadian

G O K U
Elder God
People downplaying Erron Black like crazy, hes still one of the best characters in the game.

Rating Kollector bottom tier with Kotal? What the fuck? Even at his worst Kollector was still way better off than the actual bad characters(let alone now he can do actual damage, and can get 30+% and a restand into more pressure from max range from stand 44 now).

Whatever happened to Shao Kahn being A tier?(obviously wrong then, the man has no conviction!)
 
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