The New Top Tiers [POST EVO-PATCH]

[santanabar]

Sonic tier lists are so bad lol, shitty character has one decent normal plus on block and he is like "this move is OD, literally broken, Super S+++ tier"

 

[MrArcher15]

He is definitely better than Jax. Not only as a character overall, but he has significantly better MUs. Again, to say that he is bottom 5 is just crazy.

Also, no half decent Lao is going to be teleporting like a maniac, if ever.

I really don’t see how he’s better than Jax
Edit: in my opinion he loses to any character with a half decent projectile at a high level. I’ve zoned out almost every Lao I played as jax, his only way in is teleport which you can react to and unsafe dive kicks. Can you elaborate more on how he’s better? I think he’s solid like maybe mid upper mid but I don’t see him better than some characters you listed.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Did you f**** read my whole post or just choose what sentence to read?
Let me waste my time a bit, so i make video and show you how exactly I cant punish him after amplified fireball, once again because of the blockstun.
Not to mention i whiff first a lot of the time.
He also have other options like D3 and D4 for example.
And NO, F4,3 is not punishable. Is 1000000% safe and you cant punish it.
So let me record you a video, and come explain me how amplified Fireball is punishable.
Here it is:
Sorry for the way its recorded, but i has to do it alone.

https://streamable.com/5ajff

And one more video so all can understand how weak Sub Zero is. His range of D1 and D3 is ridiculous stupid small. And his option sucks so much.

VID_20190820_110314

Watch "VID_20190820_110314" on Streamable.

streamable.com

Your reaction time is slow from what I see in your recording. I showed you multiple examples and what to do vs him. But I'll link another video showing you how to punish with Sub Zero
His amped Fireball is -24 and your B14 and B32 starters are faster than 15f. Its about a 3f window to punish which is absolutely possible at a high level considering I use a 13f move with NW in the video I showed you before and subs B3 is 13f.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1163912137342767104

As you can see its 100% punishable if you can't do this you are pressing your button 5f late but what I seen in your video was more than 20-24f late on your punish attempt

Trust what I'm saying and adapt what I showed you. Set it up in practice mode on record on random hidden select until you can punish all options and react to the delay before throw and I bet you will stomp online LK's.

I don't know where you got the idea that I said F43 is punishable? I never said that anywhere idid say F43U3, is punishable in the gap with 9f moves and then I said F43xxParry, F43xxEXFireball and F4xxThrow are reactable and punishable and give you better odds to punish liu kangaroo than using D3 or pokes. But if you don't have the execution to punish Liu Kang EX Fireball then try using D4 which does punish and jails into B14 so you can put him in a 50/50 with strike/throw if you know how to wavedash. Sub has the second best dash in the game.

 

[DrFolmer]

I would appreciate it if somebody could explain to me how to break out of Liu Kang's F4 string after his last attack (U3). The characters I use don't have teleports so how do I counter it if a Liu Kang player keeps spamming it? I can't poke out of it at all. Are you supposed to just block and wait until he starts throwing fireballs? I can't jump out of it either.

You can't - that's his reward for making you respect and not combo him out of the gap. Liu Kang's going for the full f43u3 are risking a full combo for insane plusframes. I think you can flawless block the follow up pressure?

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Snoop88, you still arew going to whiff 99,99% of the first shot and he will block.
My bad for standing 3, was thinking of standing 4.
Hellbringer, be my guess. You are going to whiff most of the time with 1,2. The range is sh..

Even if i do it faster i maybe land some shot offline, but online is different story.

1,2 punish is very hard, because you will whiff most of the time. Pretty s**** range.
The easiest way to punish this is with B3,2.
But still you have to catch the perfect moment. If you do it just a bit to early and you are going to eat the high fireball, a bit later and you he will block.
I can do it with B1 as well.
You can do it with 1,2, but only if you are ready to do this, and he have a lot of options.

The time i record it was straight after hard back workout and reaction wasn`t that good.

The main thing is the option he have. And there your reaction will be slower and you will miss the punish or eat something.

Braindead, thanks. Tho i play Dead of Winter.

S3 punishes EXFireball as well. Uploading it now:
S3 seems easier than B3 and B1 but all of them punish and if you can't get that then just do D4 into wavedash and put them in the blender with Strike/Throw 50/50s.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1163919063204020224

 

[Hellbringer]

Your reaction time is slow from what I see in your recording. I showed you multiple examples and what to do vs him. But I'll link another video showing you how to punish with Sub Zero
His amped Fireball is -24 and your B14 and B32 starters are faster than 15f. Its about a 3f window to punish which is absolutely possible at a high level considering I use a 13f move with NW in the video I showed you before and subs B3 is 13f.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1163912137342767104

As you can see its 100% punishable if you can't do this you are pressing your button 5f late but what I seen in your video was more than 20-24f late on your punish attempt

Trust what I'm saying and adapt what I showed you. Set it up in practice mode on record on random hidden select until you can punish all options and react to the delay before throw and I bet you will stomp online LK's.

I don't know where you got the idea that I said F43 is punishable? I never said that anywhere idid say F43U3, is punishable in the gap with 9f moves and then I said F43xxParry, F43xxEXFireball and F4xxThrow are reactable and punishable and give you better odds to punish liu kangaroo than using D3 or pokes. But if you don't have the execution to punish Liu Kang EX Fireball then try using D4 which does punish and jails into B14 so you can put him in a 50/50 with strike/throw if you know how to wavedash. Sub has the second best dash in the game.

Whatver you say the guy is clueless lol and he will reply talking how he saw a pro getting hit by f43u3 so therefor the move is OP. Will also say something about online and wifi warriors, etc etc. Might be some twitter links incoming too.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Whatver you say the guy is clueless lol and he will reply talking how he saw a pro getting hit by f43u3 so therefor the move is OP. Will also say something about online and wifi warriors, etc etc. Might be some twitter links incoming too.

EvEn if a pro player gets hit by F43U3 it doesn't change how easy it is to counter the F4 mix. Its all about choosing your battles and taking calculated risks that are in your favor to beat liu kangs. If you have bad fundies then LK will be SSS tier. He has amazing tools and everything you need. He is the new Cassie now jailing off D1/D3 into a plus 3 auto shimmy with a 5 frame window its definitely dirty but he is counterable and winable otherwise NinjaKilla and SylverRye would have been winning every tournament not Sonic/dragon, Kombat and Scar

I'm legit trying to help LordLosh because I can see he is struggling from his posts. I don't even use Liu Kang I main Nightwolf, Shang & Kotal along with Yaas Queen Cassie

 

[lordlosh]

Did you even read what i write?
Ok fast hands go show me how you punish that with 1,2. Make a 1 minute video of this, not 20 sec.
I already said its punishable by B3,2. But you cant do it 100% constantly, without eating high fireball at times. Even pro players eat that. The reason is not only because you need to act fast and to be exact ready for that move, but because you not know if he will amplified or not.
At online its a lot harder. This was my point from the begining.
And you have a lot of options like i said. He can go for the fireball earlier, he can amplify, he have the high kick option, the throw option, D2, D3, Parry option and etc.
Its easy when you are at the practice and knowing what exactly is coming to you.

VID_20190821_002937 - Streamable

Check out this video on Streamable using your phone, tablet or desktop.

streamable.com

 

[wsj515]

I really don’t see how he’s better than Jax
Edit: in my opinion he loses to any character with a half decent projectile at a high level. I’ve zoned out almost every Lao I played as jax, his only way in is teleport which you can react to and unsafe dive kicks. Can you elaborate more on how he’s better? I think he’s solid like maybe mid upper mid but I don’t see him better than some characters you listed.

Dive kick is used as a mobility tool in order to get in, you are very often not punishing a projectile straight up with dive kick. You are playing some really bad Laos if they are getting zoned by Jax. I don't see how he struggles at all with zoning, and in fact, I really don't think he has many losing matchups outside a handful. He has great KBs, AA, A2A, damage, and oki in a game with really strong wakeup options, and a very solid strike/throw and stagger game. His teleport is also very much usable on a read.

Jax on the other hand has some incredibly polarizing MUs, Lao being one of them. I've played it a lot on both sides and it might be 7-3 for Lao. Jax gets out-neutral'd hard, and needs to spend meter in order to ever threaten anything after a f33 on block, because Lao's d3 low profiles the ender.

 

[MrArcher15]

Dive kick is used as a mobility tool in order to get in, you are very often not punishing a projectile straight up with dive kick. You are playing some really bad Laos if they are getting zoned by Jax. I don't see how he struggles at all with zoning, and in fact, I really don't think he has many losing matchups outside a handful. He has great KBs, AA, A2A, damage, and oki in a game with really strong wakeup options, and a very solid strike/throw and stagger game. His teleport is also very much usable on a read.

Jax on the other hand has some incredibly polarizing MUs, Lao being one of them. I've played it a lot on both sides and it might be 7-3 for Lao. Jax gets out-neutral'd hard, and needs to spend meter in order to ever threaten anything after a f33 on block, because Lao's d3 low profiles the ender.

I’ve been able to zone out Laos at god rank, and 7-3 Lao? I disagree man I’ve Mained Jax since the beginning of the game and I rarely lose to Lao. On second thought I think it’s actually 6-4 in Laos favor maybe 5-5. Not because of your reasoning but because of the fact that he can d3 some of hunker downs strings so the overhead doesn’t come out, which I think you know cuz I remember you from when I talked about it. If Lao doesn’t know that though then Jax should win. I wish you played Lao so I could show you but I know you play Jax haha.
It’s extremely easy to zone Lao with Jax though. dd3 when you have space and then you can either bf2 amp or shoot a fireball. If they try and teleport d12,d12,db1 and end with 4 and they are full screen again.
Edit: it seems you added the d3 bit I mentioned or I just didn’t see it. Also I’m ending almost all my strings in gotcha grab and throwing you across the screen, not just when you teleport. If you play him we should run a set sometime

 

[SwiftEagle]

You can't - that's his reward for making you respect and not combo him out of the gap. Liu Kang's going for the full f43u3 are risking a full combo for insane plusframes. I think you can flawless block the follow up pressure?

Well, I'll admit flawless blocking is something I never do. I know you can poke before U3, but it's a pure guess since you'll never know if he's going for a low fireball. I'll have to practice flawless blocking more. I noticed better players doing it a lot to me.

 

[wsj515]

I’ve been able to zone out Laos at god rank, and 7-3 Lao? I disagree man I’ve Mained Jax since the beginning of the game and I rarely lose to Lao. On second thought I think it’s actually 6-4 in Laos favor maybe 5-5. Not because of your reasoning but because of the fact that he can d3 some of hunker downs strings so the overhead doesn’t come out, which I think you know cuz I remember you from when I talked about it. If Lao doesn’t know that though then Jax should win. I wish you played Lao so I could show you but I know you play Jax haha.
It’s extremely easy to zone Lao with Jax though. dd3 when you have space and then you can either bf2 amp or shoot a fireball. If they try and teleport d12,d12,db1 and end with 4 and they are full screen again.

I play both characters, and have played both sides of the matchup a lot. Lao definitely wins the matchup, if not badly. I'd be happy to run it with you but my PS is broken so only xbone right now.

I mentioned the d3 thing in my previous reply, but you can't seriously consider the Lao not knowing about d3 in the MU lol. That's like saying Raiden is broken if ppl don't know storm cell is a high. The d3 thing is a huge deal as f3 is easily Jax's best button. Jax shouldn't have time to use dd3 because Lao should always be either jumping to threaten dive kick, throwing zhat/reg hat, and just generally playing footsies, and he has way better neutral buttons. Even if Jax does dd3, its a resource, and will often get clipped just trying to build it, so its net negative. Lao completely controls the pace of the game.

I'm sure this sounds like a cop out, but again, if you are zoning out Lao with Jax, they're either really bad, or really don't know the MU. Both are entirely possible, as so many people don't know the Jax MU, and its not that hard to climb to God given enough time spent.

 

[MrArcher15]

I play both characters, and have played both sides of the matchup a lot. Lao definitely wins the matchup, if not badly. I'd be happy to run it with you but my PS is broken so only xbone right now.

I mentioned the d3 thing in my previous reply, but you can't seriously consider the Lao not knowing about d3 in the MU lol. That's like saying Raiden is broken if ppl don't know storm cell is a high. The d3 thing is a huge deal as f3 is easily Jax's best button. Jax shouldn't have time to use dd3 because Lao should always be either jumping to threaten dive kick, throwing zhat/reg hat, and just generally playing footsies, and he has way better neutral buttons. Even if Jax does dd3, its a resource, and will often get clipped just trying to build it, so its net negative. Lao completely controls the pace of the game.

I'm sure this sounds like a cop out, but again, if you are zoning out Lao with Jax, they're either really bad, or really don't know the MU. Both are entirely possible, as so many people don't know the Jax MU, and its not that hard to climb to God given enough time spent.

Oh it was hard for me since I was playing shujinkidink, burrito vorhees, od Alcatraz, djt etc. You never saw me ranting? Lmao and damn that’s a shame unbreak your PS4 dude. Also You’d be surprised how many don’t know about it. But as I said im hit confirming anything into gotcha grab and ending with 4, if I use any version of bf2 I’m sending you full screen too. Real easy to utilize dd3. But fine at the highest level I still think it’s 6-4 Lao, maybe 5-5, I just can’t see it being 7-3. 7-3 is like cetrion vs Shao Kahn when he’s full screen or something haha

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Did you even read what i write?
Ok fast hands go show me how you punish that with 1,2. Make a 1 minute video of this, not 20 sec.
I already said its punishable by B3,2. But you cant do it 100% constantly, without eating high fireball at times. Even pro players eat that. The reason is not only because you need to act fast and to be exact ready for that move, but because you not know if he will amplified or not.
At online its a lot harder. This was my point from the begining.
And you have a lot of options like i said. He can go for the fireball earlier, he can amplify, he have the high kick option, the throw option, D2, D3, Parry option and etc.
Its easy when you are at the practice and knowing what exactly is coming to you.

VID_20190821_002937 - Streamable

Check out this video on Streamable using your phone, tablet or desktop.

streamable.com

Obviously he has other options and I showed you that you can react to Fireball/Throw/Parry 100% of the time and full combo punish it.
If you knew it was punishable by several moves why did you say it wasn't punishable and why are you trying to use his short range punishers at all?

Its 100% punishable and you can consistently punish it. His F4 mix is not unpunishable at high level.
Just because a pro player got caught by it doesn't mean its uncounterable. Pro players make mistakes even me a tournament player to the highest level players like Sonic, Scar, Dragon, NinjaKilla ect make plenty of mistakes.
What iS catching the high level players when they get caught by ex low fireball is: they Are getting cocky and trying to punish the gap in F43U3 or trying to punish raw Low Fireball instead of punishing what's free.
I hate playing vs good Liu Kang's but not because of parry/fireball/throw its because his hurtbox leans back after throws and kicks making it hard to punish with some characters after he throws.
Every character has tools that force guess like:

• number of hit
• staggers
• strike / throw
• Overhead/low
• strike/CMD Grab

Not a single character lacks mixups in this game that force you to make reads. That is not a fair reason to complain about a character.
If I was to complain about Liu Kang I'd be complaining about how he can jail into his auto shimmy which is +3 on block and several characters have issues D2'ing him after he throws.

The main point is there is clear counters to liu Kang and if you are losing to him its most likely your opponent has better footsies. He like every character can force guess but its not off his F4 its off his amazing staggers and plus frames:
B34 is -2
12 is plus 3
B1 is -4 to -2 and has a follow up all mids
212 is -2 and has an amazing ender 2121 which gives him Oki

These create guess games add to that they are cancelable into many specials
But his strongest trait in my opinion is that he can jail into a +3 on block Auto shimmy which is OD and creates 50/50's.
But he loses to footsie characters who can outrange him and have better wave dashes.
Jax, Scarlet, Nightwolf and Johnny come to mind as having tools to outrage him and counter zoning tools.

Its better not to make excuses as to why you lose. No character is a win button. At high level they all require fundamentals and MU knowledge to win. The moment you say X character is broke and that's why I'm losing is the single greatest reason players never progress as players. Instead of saying this move is broken take that strong tool and turn it against them by labbing up counters. Kind of like what I did with the video.
I legit tried to help you in earlier posts but it seems no matter how much evidence people provide you, you don't accept it because you have your mind made up.

 

[wsj515]

Oh it was hard for me since I was playing shujinkidink, burrito vorhees, od Alcatraz, djt etc. You never saw me ranting? Lmao and damn that’s a shame unbreak your PS4 dude. Also You’d be surprised how many don’t know about it. But as I said im hit confirming anything into gotcha grab and ending with 4, if I use any version of bf2 I’m sending you full screen too. Real easy to utilize dd3. But fine at the highest level I still think it’s 6-4 Lao, maybe 5-5, I just can’t see it being 7-3. 7-3 is like cetrion vs Shao Kahn when he’s full screen or something haha

We can go back and forth on this (and I'm happy to) but what I said about Lao's placement vs. Jax stands, Lao really doesn't have many bad MUs, while Jax has quite a few, more than I think most people realize.

 

[DrFolmer]

Well, I'll admit flawless blocking is something I never do. I know you can poke before U3, but it's a pure guess since you'll never know if he's going for a low fireball. I'll have to practice flawless blocking more. I noticed better players doing it a lot to me.

Yeah, but look at it this way - if he goes for the full string and you read it then you can just do a jab starter into full combo. If you read the low fireball he's super unsafe and eats a full combo. I know the amplified is tricky to punish but you can practice it to just block the low fireball and see if he goes for the amplified - you'll get the punish either way. He has the option of parry as well so the safest thing you can do is just doing a d4 if you think he's not gonna fireball.

I know there's more to Kang than this, pretty good zoning, insane staggers, throw loops, plus frames - but once you break his kit down you'll realize comitting to the full string is a pretty risky thing compared to payoffs. You're gonna eat what? U3 or a low fireball? You get a full combo when you read correctly, he gets pretty miniscule stuff aside from parry which is also a super risky thing to go for.

I was at a complete loss against this character earlier in the game's life, but I picked up Liu for a bit (you can have a pretty decent Kang in about 2 minutes tbh lul) to see how other people deal with him. It taught me a lot. I always thought it was such a dumb string, but once you realize how many risks he takes comitting to it you can kinda break down his stagger game from there. I mean he's still absolutely nuts as a character and this shit is hard online dont get me wrong.

 

[MrArcher15]

We can go back and forth on this (and I'm happy to) but what I said about Lao's placement vs. Jax stands, Lao really doesn't have many bad MUs, while Jax has quite a few, more than I think most people realize.

Yeah I don’t think you’ll change my mind either. It’s fine though I have no problem agreeing to disagree and I respect your opinion

 

[lordlosh]

Thanks for the long post.
And btw i never said i lost to X character, because of Tier list or something like that. If i lose its because the opponent was better or i play bad, make mistake i shouldnt do.
And i never said his move is broken or something. I just said its hard to constantly punish it, because he have a lot of options, this is it.

And i dont judge only on my gameplay, but from what i see from Pros.
I may not be High skilled player, but i watch a lot, and i really mean a lot of Pro replays. I dont recall Ninjakilla get constantly punish by using his move. Its totally the opposite he braely get punish for it, and he use F4 mix really a lot.
He also mix it with a Shaolin Stance and that is another option on top of that.