Emerald Defender Match-Up/Tech/Strategy Discussion

[seanpon]

@Hot_DNA Raidens stupid with that Teleport, a good thing to do is make him bait out Light Cell, Jade can actually F2 punish this. Besides that, you don't get to use projectiles outside of range3.
Kitana High Born, haven't had too much exp with her yet, but the Teleport is a free D2 punish, she's -2 on her dagger cancels (with 13fr as her fastest mid/low). Baiting out Ass and b231 (on whiff) will get you good results (so that means you wanna establish the threat of Glow first).

@Phr4nk it's just pushback, and it only applies to Baraka, anyway the b3434 can be chained into another b3434 (if Baraka crouchblocks and doesn't FB) in the corner.

@Sundown Thanks! I disagree though:
Both his Teleport and AirSickle can counter her AirRang pretty confidently, also has 2 amazing AA's that shut down Jade jumpins. These should (and can) be used reactionary..
Biggest factor, though, (and it's not something I see Noob players do very often), is that Noob gets access to a 9-frame RANGED launch punisher. We have the weakest vs the strongest damage output here, this speaks on how many neutral situations she has to beat Noob or who gets to capitalize more on punishable options.
Noob has a pretty useable forward dashblock, stagger potential that Jade is not gonna challenge with her d4 or even b3. gets a lot of tools he can counter Jade with, and losing his sub-par projectiles doesn't hurt much, in terms of neutral tools he goes pretty even.

Definitely a losing one for Jade, but I wouldn't say it's as bad as (for example) her Cetrion MU. There is a lot more honest neutral play involved.

@GLoRToR
I mean.. You're not wrong (just exaggerating lol).. I still think this is a valid weakness, but there are neutral situations she simply "wins" (because of the defensive utility of jumping and backwalk creating space.. or even just the threat of it). I try to factor that in, even though it's immeasurable potential that many rightfully wouldn't pick over having average damage, giving her that will undoubtly make her too strong, a character with a tool that negates a big fundamental mechanic (like projectiles) doesn't deserve to be much better than she is right now.. I think that's just fair balance design (look at Subzero Ice Clone).

While 5-5 isn't usually enough to pick a character, I think she may be a good enough counterpick (for Cassie, Erron, Baraka, Kabal, Sub) as I don't know how they deal with the rest of the cast.
And while she does have this uphill struggle, people need to know this MU (which isn't as straightforward as most), with the most MU knowledge from Jade ('s own perspective), it's easier to point out where she's losing (and the opponent isn't capitalizing). That'll change with time and probably explains why talking about Jade is so controversial atm.

5~ good MU's, 5~ bad MU's, 15~ relatively even MU's... Cetrion, Scorpion, Sonya... and every top player playing one of them. I don't think it's unfair! Just a bit unlucky with this current meta.

Maining Shertile anyway so biased motive is prob lost on me but hey, she's not as useless as she always used to be, she's probably the best example of how a balanced MK11 character should look like. Buff her, leave her be, I don't think either would be a bad choice by next patch. But I hope we all agree, it shouldn't be much.

Jade's damage output vs Noobs damage output make completely no sense at all. Noob has a faster mid, as well as his spacing tools in neutral are all on par with Jades. Not only that, if he makes the right read and hits you with a teleport when Jade's jumping or if he reacts to your projectiles with his teleport he gets a free BnB combo. with Jade if you punish his teleport all you get is 18.5%.... NRS made absolutely no sense when designing certain characters. Jade's lack of damage is a crippling issue for the character and she has to outplay Noob saibot 2-3 times more in neutral in order to put the same damage he can do in one ouch. Playing Jade will ONLY get more difficult once people get better and figure out the match up. NRS really dropped the ball with Jade again...

 

[GLoRToR]

@GLoRToR
I mean.. You're not wrong (just exaggerating lol).. I still think this is a valid weakness, but there are neutral situations she simply "wins" (because of the defensive utility of jumping and backwalk creating space.. or even just the threat of it). I try to factor that in, even though it's immeasurable potential that many rightfully wouldn't pick over having average damage, giving her that will undoubtly make her too strong, a character with a tool that negates a big fundamental mechanic (like projectiles) doesn't deserve to be much better than she is right now.. I think that's just fair balance design (look at Subzero Ice Clone).

While 5-5 isn't usually enough to pick a character, I think she may be a good enough counterpick (for Cassie, Erron, Baraka, Kabal, Sub) as I don't know how they deal with the rest of the cast.
And while she does have this uphill struggle, people need to know this MU (which isn't as straightforward as most), with the most MU knowledge from Jade ('s own perspective), it's easier to point out where she's losing (and the opponent isn't capitalizing). That'll change with time and probably explains why talking about Jade is so controversial atm.

5~ good MU's, 5~ bad MU's, 15~ relatively even MU's... Cetrion, Scorpion, Sonya... and every top player playing one of them. I don't think it's unfair! Just a bit unlucky with this current meta.

Maining Shertile anyway so biased motive is prob lost on me but hey, she's not as useless as she always used to be, she's probably the best example of how a balanced MK11 character should look like. Buff her, leave her be, I don't think either would be a bad choice by next patch. But I hope we all agree, it shouldn't be much.

She should either be safer or do more damage, really.

 

[Tanya-Fan-28]

I cannot for the life of me f4 punish Skarlets u3. I know its early but just can't hit at the right micro second. Raidens U3 is a little easier but I'm not consistent. I find his U2 way easier to punish, even Jades D4 gets him. Also I just realized her parry is a sick punish on all getups with the right read, and if they don't roll away.

 

[GLoRToR]

Can we talk about how Kabal's b12 beats Jade upclose, Dash punishes Glow and his zoning is basically the same thing?

 

[seanpon]

Can we talk about how Kabal's b12 beats Jade upclose, Dash punishes Glow and his zoning is basically the same thing?

Its annoying but you have to bait kabal to throw a projectile and then instant glow. Any good kabal is just going to nomad dash you if you activate glow out of neutral. Once you have it up though, it becomes harder for kabal to fight you. I wish Jades jump 2 would be like kabal's jump 2 though. Kabals jump 2 is so damn good, it has so many active frames. Even though Jade's jump 2 looks similar, its far worst since its so hard to hit standing opponents.

 

[GLoRToR]

Its annoying but you have to bait kabal to throw a projectile and then instant glow. Any good kabal is just going to nomad dash you if you activate glow out of neutral. Once you have it up though, it becomes harder for kabal to fight you. I wish Jades jump 2 would be like kabal's jump 2 though. Kabals jump 2 is so damn good, it has so many active frames. Even though Jade's jump 2 looks similar, its far worst since its so hard to hit standing opponents.

Kabal does everything Jade does just better from the looks of it. Swell.

 

[seanpon]

Kabal does everything Jade does just better from the looks of it. Swell.

exactly! its stupid how NRS designed certain characters like Jade and Kano who have clear weaknesses. But characters like Kabal and Cassie don't have anything that holds them back, they feel like complete characters. And those two are only examples of the A tier, don't even get me started on the S tier.... but oh well, everyone who plays geras, sonya, etc think this game is very balanced and we shouldn't see a patch after evolution... sighhhhh

 

[GLoRToR]

exactly! its stupid how NRS designed certain characters like Jade and Kano who have clear weaknesses. But characters like Kabal and Cassie don't have anything that holds them back, they feel like complete characters. And those two are only examples of the A tier, don't even get me started on the S tier.... but oh well, everyone who plays geras, sonya, etc think this game is very balanced and we shouldn't see a patch after evolution... sighhhhh

psst the hate mafia will call foul

 

[TaserFace007]

Is there a good punish string against Scorpion's teleport? I've gotten to the point where I can react to it fine, but do minimal damage on the punish. Is that just because Jade's punishes do minimal damage or is there some decent string I can use there?

 

[GLoRToR]

Is there a good punish string against Scorpion's teleport? I've gotten to the point where I can react to it fine, but do minimal damage on the punish. Is that just because Jade's punishes do minimal damage or is there some decent string I can use there?

43-df4, mb it if you want. 43-exprojectile leaves you at + frames for setups. 43-low projectile gives you oki with f2

 

[GLoRToR]

I adore how in the Scorpion matchup even his Fatal Blow just outright beats Jade's every single time.
She literally has no options in this matchup. Press a button? Teleport! Try to move? Teleport! Block and wait? Teleport cancel throw! Let go of block? Teleport! Block and punish? Congratulations, you just dealt 5% damage, here, have some more teleporting.

And there are still people claiming that Jade is not trash.

 

[Hot_DNA]

I adore how in the Scorpion matchup even his Fatal Blow just outright beats Jade's every single time.
She literally has no options in this matchup. Press a button? Teleport! Try to move? Teleport! Block and wait? Teleport cancel throw! Let go of block? Teleport! Block and punish? Congratulations, you just dealt 5% damage, here, have some more teleporting.

And there are still people claiming that Jade is not trash.

I honestly think 50% of my losses have come to Scorpions

 

[GLoRToR]

I honestly think 50% of my losses have come to Scorpions

nrs game balance. I'm glad there wasn't a patch yet, maybe they'll fix this shit

 

[Hot_DNA]

Literally just hopped on.. 1st match fought a scorpion.. went 0-5 him..I feel so hopeless in that matchup

 

[seanpon]

Literally just hopped on.. 1st match fought a scorpion.. went 0-5 him..I feel so hopeless in that matchup

Yeah unfortunately scorpion feels like the most troll character in the game, he can just jump around and there's nothing really you can do... The moment he sees you throw a projectile he will just teleport. It feels like any characters with teleports do a reasonable good job of getting jade not to play her game. Jades projectiles are slow and have lots of recovery so if they read you with a teleport they get a full combo punish.... but god forbid if you read a raiden teleport or centrion teleport you only get 18% damage for a punish compared to 30%. Yet people still claim Jade's "fine", her damage output is absolutely problematic in this game. How can a character be considered "good" when her best punish is 18-20%....

NRS totally screwed up on certain characters and unfortunately Jade is one of them.

 

[GLoRToR]

Cetrion is nearly as bad a matchup as Scorpion tbh.
She has superior zoning, she can teleport punish Glow for free which Vines ignore anyway. Glow doesn't even work on her Fatal Blow.

And Jade can't even rush her down because of the upward close projectile move. Glow may be immune to it but when do you activate glow against someone that always wins every projectile trade and punishes it for free 100% of the time?

So to sum it up, Cetrion beats Jade at all ranges. Against Scorpion you can at least get in and do your pathetic little 10% combos sometimes

 

[ZeroSymbolic]

Does Pole Vault help against Scorp and Cetrion?

 

[Phr4nk]

Idk about cetrion but I use vault against scorpions. You lose zoning options, but you can’t use those anyway. You get a buff to wiggle stick damage. It’s not a game changer but it can help.

 

[GLoRToR]

Does Pole Vault help against Scorp and Cetrion?

That variation has literally nothing that helps against any matchup currently if the opponent knows Jade.
It's better to have the threat of air glaive sometimes than all slots occupied by bad moves.

Vault itself gets low profiled a lot.
Cancels are negative so not really worth it.
The shadow kick change is literally useless.

 

[ZeroSymbolic]

@karaokelove suggested that the hit box on straight glaive has a lot of active frames and might beat out teleport. Anybody lab this?

 

[Phr4nk]

I don’t think straight glaive is viable as a teleport defense. Timing is pretty tight. Hop 3 works too but again the timing is too tight or be reliable. Both have to be reads, not reactions.

If you could get that timing on a read you’re better off neutral jumping and hitting j2 f21 21 b2 df3. You can get like 301 meterless, which is a banging punish. But it has to be a read because if you’re late on the jump the teleport will catch you.

My current favorite is the flawless block option select. After the first hit of the teleport tap block~2~U. If the move isn’t amplified the 2 comes out and you get 18 frames to do what you want. If it is amplified you get the flawless block launcher.

 

[GLoRToR]

I don’t think straight glaive is viable as a teleport defense. Timing is pretty tight. Hop 3 works too but again the timing is too tight or be reliable. Both have to be reads, not reactions.

If you could get that timing on a read you’re better off neutral jumping and hitting j2 f21 21 b2 df3. You can get like 301 meterless, which is a banging punish. But it has to be a read because if you’re late on the jump the teleport will catch you.

My current favorite is the flawless block option select. After the first hit of the teleport tap block~2~U. If the move isn’t amplified the 2 comes out and you get 18 frames to do what you want. If it is amplified you get the flawless block launcher.

@karaokelove suggested that the hit box on straight glaive has a lot of active frames and might beat out teleport. Anybody lab this?

It takes 20 frames to hit, at the first 5 or so you have the glaive circling you. If the teleport comes in close and you time it right it can hit them but good luck doing it consistently, especially online.

It would be cool if the glaive worked like Orbiting Hat instead. I'd easily give up Upglaive for Orbiting Glaive.

 

[Wrenchfarm]

What are you all using to punish Erron Black for wild F4s? I feel like I'm having a harder time with this match up than other Jades seem to and I think a big part of that is leaving damage on the table.

 

[GLoRToR]

What are you all using to punish Erron Black for wild F4s? I feel like I'm having a harder time with this match up than other Jades seem to and I think a big part of that is leaving damage on the table.

b3 bf2

 

[GLoRToR]

Here's my current matchups for Emerald Defender

Winning:
6-4 Kotal
6-4 Kollector
7-3 Shao
6-4 Johnny
7-3 Kano
5.5-4.5 Raiden

Even:
Kitana
Skarlet
D'Vorah
Erron
Sub
Jacqui
Jax
Frost
Noob
Cassie

Losing:
4-6 Baraka
3-7 Sonya
4-6 Geras
3-7 Shang
3-7 Scorpion
2-8 Kabal
4-6 Liu
4-6 Lao
2-8 Cetrion