Does anyone else feel like MK11 was designed for casuals?

[ienjoywinning]

I suck pretty badly at this game, but with almost 300 matches in, mostly on kompetitive, I don't think I've ever been punished by a breakaway lol

Character dependent. Characters like Lao, erron and cetrion are some examples of characters that can be punished via breakaway. If you time it right you can drop before Lao does his spin , before erron does his slide and before cetrion does her bf4(?) I think. Which would allow you to punish them. Theres more characters but these 3 are the top of my head.

 

[trufenix]

Character dependent. Characters like Lao, erron and cetrion are some examples of characters that can be punished via breakaway. If you time it right you can drop before Lao does his spin , before erron does his slide and before cetrion does her bf4(?) I think. Which would allow you to punish them. Theres more characters but these 3 are the top of my head.

Some characters can even get punished by blocking. We should really have a talk about this game breaking obvious comeback mechanic.

 

[Cashual]

Difficulty get thrown around a lot. I’m all for easier combos because I suck at execution. I will agree that combos in MKX are in general harder to execute when compared to MK11, but in the end it all comes down to muscle memory. Execution barrier becomes less and less of a factor when considering tournaments and professionals where all they do is practice and play, where casuals like me do not have the time to sit in the lab for a year trying to do f12b2 combos on Displacer Raiden. What MK11 brings to the table though is an increase complexity in the how you get your damage, something that only experience will be able to teach. Nothing in the lab can prepare you for the constant decision making you undergo in the neutral. The lab only helps you ready your options through training muscle memory. When every option has a counter then the truly complex game begins. The decision to go low risk with low reward or high risk high reward or any other option can only be made on the fly and differs between any 2 players. Perhaps it may be easier to capitalise on your opportunity once it arises, but in MK11 the game is to find ways to create opportunities.

I don’t understand....that was my entire point. That combos and execution are not what makes a game “difficult” and that people claiming that MK11 is for casuals due to the relative lack of complex combos is total bullshit.

MKX is one of the most casual friendly fighting games of all time due to how much the game revolved around the ability to quickly get in and apply offense designed around pressure or mixups.

And I’m sorry, but this narrative that the execution in mkx was higher than MK11 just isn’t really true. People always point to the 3 loops of f11f2 or whatever the string is for Raiden as this really hard combo, and it’s not that hard. Before MK11 dropped I took Raiden to practice and had that combo consistently with maybe an hour of practice total across a couple sit downs.

I guess I’m not sure why you quoted me and then made your post because it seems like you’re disagreeing with me. I’m not sure if you misunderstood the point of my post or maybe you’re just trying to emphasize my point, not sure.

Either way, mkx was not for “serious” play because of lengthier combos, and MK11 is not for casual play because it has shorter combos. MK11 puts emphasis on getting into position to do damage which is much more difficult and takes more skill than just relentlessly applying offense.

The flawless block mechanic, lack of armored launchers, the fact that wake up options all have counter play, the ability to strategically dole out krushing blows situationally, etc. all make MK11 a more competitive game.

None of this is to say that MK11 is....flawless....no pun intended. Characters with bad KBs get mopped and fatal blows are a bit over the top (for some characters), and the proliferation of highs and the way the poke game works are all a bit iffy, but the game is good and will get better imo.

 

[SwiftEagle]

We have all heard and all have the same gripes about this games meta and I have a small theory about it and this could probably just be salt talking...but let me know what you think.

My theory is that this game was purposely made somewhat easy play just to please the average scrub that doesn’t have the discipline or execution to pull of combos....strictly to make it accessible and boost sales.

The reasons are as follows.

1. D2 KBs and D2’s in general.
They are so easy to land as a mashed out whiff punish as most strings that lead to damage through full combo extension are highs and they do a ton of damage.

2. Throws. Don’t get me started. 14 percent? For one button repeatedly mashed any where up close. I can easily say I’ve taken more damage in the corner of throws playing this game than combos over the course of my 500 or so matches.

3. Air escape leading to a punish opportunity. It’s serious bullshit that someone can get a punish out of getting opened up. It makes have to think twice about continuing my combo and time a get someone opened up cause I could possibly my get punished for doing well enough to get the hit and having the execution to pull off a full combo.

4. Fatal blows. Let’s just be honest. This is the “win button” for those that can’t close out and get a legit win in a close match.

All four of these things are just ridiculous and need to be changed for this game to remain any fun I’m my opinion. I like the back and forth of a good hard fought match but with shit mechanics like these you don’t get those kind of matches often.

My suggestions...

1. D2’s need to be less safe and put out less damage.

2. Throws need to be nerded to 12 percent or made more risky.

3. The air break needs to be back to the MKX mechanic of a nuetral reset.

4. KBs need to be back to a whiff and lose it risk reward situation.

I can honestly say I’ve tried so hard to enjoy this game like I did MKX. But it’s just not happening cause of shit like this. I used to literally have to tear myself away from MKX after 3 to 4 hours of playing and even then I couldn’t wait to play again. MK11 keeps me interested for about an hour tops every time even when Im winning it’s not that much fun because scrub tactics are strong on this game.

There were a lot of complainers in MKX. They were angry that they couldn't handle pressure characters, and combos were too hard to pull off for them. Some characters were nerfed into the ground. The bad players in MKX always relied on pokes, xrays, and backing up full screen to throw projectiles. All of these were easily countered if you were good. If you haven't noticed, it was always the "popular character" players that did the complaining, even though their characters always have the best tools and never get touched. They know who they are.
I love MK11, and I'll play it so long as there's a population, but it's obvious that it was catered to those types of players. Crushing blows, fatal blows, the atrocious poke and uppercut spamming, etc. I knew right off the bat that it wasn't combo heavy and the matches were taking way to long to finish.
Oh, and Scorpion technically gets 4 different teleports, and Sub Zero gets 50/50s. Amazing.
If you want to see every flaw in this game amplified times 10, just play with Johnny Cage. Almost all of his moves whiff, no crushing blows, brutalities with ridiculous requirements, and there's no overhead.
In my opinion they should just remove every character in the game and leave Geras, Erron, Sub Zero, and Scorpion. It's all anybody uses anyway.

 

[Bliss]

Of course this game is easiere than MKX.

People cried about running in MKX because their eyes can only see in slow motion.

NRS simply responded based off how they feel would generate sales.

I heard sales did good for MK11, so I guess it worked.

I like this game's shallow feel. Why? Because I don't want to feel like I'm "working" to learn a game.

 

[Baconlord]

There were a lot of complainers in MKX. They were angry that they couldn't handle pressure characters, and combos were too hard to pull off for them. Some characters were nerfed into the ground. The bad players in MKX always relied on pokes, xrays, and backing up full screen to throw projectiles.

there is a huge difference between a pressure character and the shit that was in mkx. we don't need characters ever ending up in plus 20 something on block ever again. and what do you mean bad players just threw projectiles. in a game full of crazy 50/50s, insane jailing pressure, and hard to blockable set ups, you're calling the zoners the scrubby characters? also how the fuck is it even possible to rely on xrays in past nrs games lol.

 

[SwiftEagle]

there is a huge difference between a pressure character and the shit that was in mkx. we don't need characters ever ending up in plus 20 something on block ever again. and what do you mean bad players just threw projectiles. in a game full of crazy 50/50s, insane jailing pressure, and hard to blockable set ups, you're calling the zoners the scrubby characters? also how the fuck is it even possible to rely on xrays in past nrs games lol.

"We don't need". That's all I read from that post.

 

[AbeW]

I did read your post. I acknowledged your concern on execution. What is the difference between the deep character knowledge and meter management that is required to perform flawless block and punish with u2 into a combo that the opponent can breakaway out off? It’s the exact same scenario with meter management and match-up knowledge, except it is harder to time a press of a button within 4 frames of a move connecting that it is using a move that absorbs the damage and ignores the hitstun. How does that correlate to your comparison of difficulty? In MK11 you also need to manage your resources, if you breakaway then you forfeit your wake up options, same as MKX when you use a combo breaker you can’t armour out of gaps or disrespect your opponent or wake up. So where is the extra difficulty?

Sure, if anyone messes up in the neutral they eat damage, that’s a given in any fighting game. I know you play Raiden so I’ll use him as an example, in MKX, right up into the last build, once Raiden trapped you in the corner, you pretty much could not escape if he was using Thunder God. After every corner combo he would restand into b14 LRC 21, which is +21 and guarantees B2 and B3, an unreactable 50/50 since they are both 13 frames, sure B2 is unsafe but is leads to massive damage (up to half your life), but it’s also important to remember that someone used the glitch that EXdb1 connected meaty would act as 2 moves instead of one, leaving Raiden at massive advantage again and allowing to combo off his somewhat safe B2~shocker. Sure, eventually you’ll get breaker, which leaves you with no stamina so you can’t run, so you’re stuck in the same position again. You could save your meter with smart meter management, but for what? A block breaker that uses the same amount of resources? A wake up that gets stuffed by B32? Armoured reversal that you can’t do because no one is armouring out of +21 into a 13 frame normal unless we are bending some laws of physics.

In MK11, not many combos are able to end in a restand, even if they do they aren’t very plus, so once you have capitalised on your opportunity, it now falls on you to make a new one, you condition your opponent with your frametrap poke? You throw? You do a mid to stop them from mashing out? The HOW you make your opportunities is more important. Not saying that you get out of offense for free, look at the breakaway system. You give up resources to reduce combo damage. If you don’t give up your resources, you can wake up with those resources to get out of pressure, sure it could get stuffed, but then you have u2, or roll, again, every option has a counter. The decision-making is what makes the game complex.

1) It took me 5 mins each of practice to flawless block so many strings in MK11. Meter in MK11 fills up stupid fast. I am never without meter. On the other hand, the required meticulous defensive meter management in MKX requires a whole different thought process, execution and calculated meticulous gameplay to last 3 rounds.

2) I'm a MoS/Displacer main, but, revisit your frames post patch again. The b14 LRC 21 is just another legitimate 50/50 that you need to block. But, yes, if you guess right on his overhead, Raiden eats 40+%. If you block the low, he can't FBC no energy. Is Raiden dishonest? Absolutely not. You're sacrificing a max damage hard knockdown oki option in restands to get a 50/50.

Here's Destroyer tossing that restand tech all day long with TG and getting his ass hammered.

Is TG dishonest? Here's two of the best TGs getting beat by someone who knows how to handle the matchup.

MKX cannot be put down just because it is difficult or defensively complex or "different" from other FGs. I myself am a Tekken veteran. There is atleast one variation of the lowest tier character in MKX that can go head to toe against any S-tier in the game and be successful. Under this notion, it is the most balanced roster. This cannot be said for ANY FG out there. MKX is a unique masterpiece in its own right. Many of us on the Tekken scene enjoyed MKX because of how harsh it was. Playing MKX helped expand my perspective and improved my Tekken, to be quite honest.

 

[GrimJack]

there is a huge difference between a pressure character and the shit that was in mkx. we don't need characters ever ending up in plus 20 something on block ever again. and what do you mean bad players just threw projectiles. in a game full of crazy 50/50s, insane jailing pressure, and hard to blockable set ups, you're calling the zoners the scrubby characters? also how the fuck is it even possible to rely on xrays in past nrs games lol.

I'm not even mad, that's amazing

 

[Baconlord]

That's a really nice fiction story about Raiden's f12b2. There are 2 players in the world who hit it consistently in tournament and last I heard you're not one of them. Forever King and Perfect Legend both used f12b2 run 11 f12b2. Goonie and Rewind are the two that don't drop it.

There is nothing NOTHING execution heavy about MK11. Mileena's optimal bnb, Shinnok instant airs, D'vorah's 1 frame links. The lust goes on. Anyone who says MKX was not execution heavy is butt hurt over getting mixed with 50/50's. Now you get to play MK: Smash bros edition to make you feel better about your lack of execution.

Are you seriously implying smash isn't a high execution game?

 

[MalevolentFix]

Yeah well I feel like you were designed for casuals.

 

[SwiftEagle]

I'm not even mad, that's amazing

He's referring to variations like Dualist Liu Kang with a strong pressure game. People don't seem to understand that those variations took skill to use. There was a trade off; you had to be good with them, then it was top tier, like A list. It wasn't brain dead pressure like Scorpion. Scorpion is good as he is easy to use. That's the difference.
I don't understand why everyone is bitching and moaning, they won didn't they? About to lose? Just use a fatal blow! Hey, I'm adapting and getting better, so it doesn't bother me. I've been beating Erron Black players with a handicapped character.

 

[FuhnnyBonez]

Execution barrier is never taken into account when determining balance or characters. Doesn't matter how "hard" it is to perform the execution to use said tools, the character has them...

 

[portent]

He's referring to variations like Dualist Liu Kang with a strong pressure game. People don't seem to understand that those variations took skill to use. There was a trade off; you had to be good with them, then it was top tier, like A list. It wasn't brain dead pressure like Scorpion. Scorpion is good as he is easy to use. That's the difference.
I don't understand why everyone is bitching and moaning, they won didn't they? About to lose? Just use a fatal blow! Hey, I'm adapting and getting better, so it doesn't bother me. I've been beating Erron Black players with a handicapped character.

And yet now you and the OP are complaining that the game has less skill because it has greater emphasis on space control and neutral. They're different skills and different games. Players who prefer one over the other will gravitate in that direction.

So you prefer heavy pressure, 50/50 games, that's all it is.

That alone doesn't make space control and neutral less skillful. It's simply a different skill.

 

[SwiftEagle]

And yet now you and the OP are complaining that the game has less skill because it has greater emphasis on space control and neutral. They're different skills and different games. Players who prefer one over the other will gravitate in that direction.

So you prefer heavy pressure, 50/50 games, that's all it is.

That alone doesn't make space control and neutral less skillful. It's simply a different skill.

OP is complaining about MK11 taking less skill. I'm explaining why it takes less skill, and why bad players didn't like MKX. I just said I love MK11. That's a crazy assumption you made, thinking I'm actually in favor of 50/50s. Sub-Zero has 50/50s. So does Raiden. Just because you can't combo after them doesn't mean they aren't there. You have crushing blows instead. You don't have to think or you muscle memory-another thing that makes it causal.
Just because MK11 is more scrub friendly doesn't mean it's a bad game. And yes, poking your way out of your problems takes less skill than making sure you don't drop your combos in fear of getting punished.

 

[CorneliusBrutus]

I think it's good when fighting games have appeal to a broad range of players

 

[leoj89]

They intentionally designed this game to be nothing like MKX gameplay wise.

This but to the point that some designs decisions are unnecessarily obtuse for the sake of change.

 

[Vastly]

Yup, that's why I find it fun but I can't get into it competitively. The fatal blows alone are ridiculous. You are rewarded with an armored 30+ percent move for losing due to being outplayed and if you whiff it, don't worry, you will get it back again after 10 seconds or so. It's just one of many things that turns me off from MK11 competitively as a competitive game. At least in MK9 you had to build meter on your own unless you were just getting it through taking damage. You also had to choose to risk using your X-ray and if you missed, it was gone, along with all of your meter so breakers or enhanced abilities were out of the question until you could rebuild it again. There are also different variations that are so good with some characters in this game that they make their second variation useless, so that is something else they need to work on. There should be trade offs between variations to balance things out but that's not always the case. I definitely think MK11 is a lot of fun for casuals but it rewards the wrong things in my opinion, which seems to be the ongoing theme throughout the majority of the gaming industry now a days. It's like the no child left behind act of gaming.

 

[Peckapowa]

actually the opposite outside of a few characters, i feel so much ability to outplay bad opponents compared to other games.

 

[Danger317]

Mortal Kombat 11 is a nod to the old classic 2D MK's. in MK1,2,UMK3 Uppercuts and jump kicks were really strong. What a coincidence, they are strong in MK11 as well. It mostly gets its influence from MK2. In MK2 Uppercuts took away 25% hp, throws did hella damage, and there were sweep and crouching kick frame traps. Which you will find in MK11. Welll uppercuts dont take away 25% unless its a KB, but you get the point. Also there were no real combos in MK2 as in there wasn't txt showing you how many kits your combo did or the damage amount. Also they weren't these insane 25 hit combos with crazy execution. They were fairly simple to do and did hella damage. Which you also see in MK11. While you might see this as casual. If you have been a long time MK fan you will notice how similar this game is to MK2. Which is regarded by many to be the best MK in the series, only being rivaled by UMK3.

I personally love how MK11 has taken that old style and mixed it with the new. While it might not be as flashy or fast paced as MKXL, There is more strategy involved. In this game i feel like when you lose you're truly losing to the other player. Rather than just some stuff thats insanely hard to react to. Even as strong as Geras/Jacqui, and Erron Black are right now, they aren't completely out of reach by the rest of the roster.

 

[AbeW]

And yet now you and the OP are complaining that the game has less skill because it has greater emphasis on space control and neutral. They're different skills and different games. Players who prefer one over the other will gravitate in that direction.

So you prefer heavy pressure, 50/50 games, that's all it is.

That alone doesn't make space control and neutral less skillful. It's simply a different skill.

I posted several MKX gameplay videos where footsies are being played at the highest fking level in this thread. What made you think they don't exist in MKX? Plenty of space control going on! Apparently it only showed up now in MK11? Gimme a break dude.

What's this crap about 50/50s all day long anyway?,,,,,several characters in MKX including S-Tier have no real 50/50s (single hit overheads, reactable overheads. very unsafe overheads, fuzzyable sht, etc) LiuKang, Kitana, Mileena, Jason, Kotal, Raiden, Possessed Kenshi, smoke, etc. Even Tremor is honest, IMO.

Ninjakilla was beating the sht out of everyone with LiuKang....with zero 50/50s. Is Liu Kang broke? Absolutely not, there's one guy in the world who executes with Liu Kang like that. Hence, he was beating the sht out of everyone. Is Liu Kang broke? No, that guy's footsies and reads are god like. Hence, he was beating the shit out of everyone. Is ninjakilla a broke robot? Maybe : - )


It takes a certain amount of skill, precise spacing and reads to deal with 50/50s. You gotta learn to not get conditioned. It is not a forsaken pit that cannot be climbed out of.

 

[SwiftEagle]

Mortal Kombat 11 is a nod to the old classic 2D MK's. in MK1,2,UMK3 Uppercuts and jump kicks were really strong. What a coincidence, they are strong in MK11 as well. It mostly gets its influence from MK2. In MK2 Uppercuts took away 25% hp, throws did hella damage, and there were sweep and crouching kick frame traps. Which you will find in MK11. Welll uppercuts dont take away 25% unless its a KB, but you get the point. Also there were no real combos in MK2 as in there wasn't txt showing you how many kits your combo did or the damage amount. Also they weren't these insane 25 hit combos with crazy execution. They were fairly simple to do and did hella damage. Which you also see in MK11. While you might see this as casual. If you have been a long time MK fan you will notice how similar this game is to MK2. Which is regarded by many to be the best MK in the series, only being rivaled by UMK3.

I personally love how MK11 has taken that old style and mixed it with the new. While it might not be as flashy or fast paced as MKXL, There is more strategy involved. In this game i feel like when you lose you're truly losing to the other player. Rather than just some stuff thats insanely hard to react to. Even as strong as Geras/Jacqui, and Erron Black are right now, they aren't completely out of reach by the rest of the roster.

D'Vorah, Kotal Khan, Shao Khan, Johnny Cage, Kano, Frost, and a few others; you're saying these characters aren't out of reach by Jacqui, Geras, and Erron Black. This is the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard pertaining to this game. I really don't know what to say to someone who thinks any of the listed characters above stand a chance right now. It really comes off as fanboying to be honest.
Most of the people here probably didn't start with MK3 either. I noticed a lot of them started with the series with MK9. MK11 enforces the stereotype that MK is the most casual fighting game, and the people that play it don't play other fighters.
MKX almost had it right. The bad players had their characters, the hypocrites had grandmaster Sub Zero (people who hated fighting), and the good players had reptile, Swarm Queen D'Vorah, etc.
You and others claim that MK11 isn't "as flashy". What exactly do you all mean? I've yet to play a ranked set where somebody doesn't attempt a fatal blow, forcing me to sit through an animation I've seen literally hundreds of times. The fatalities are longer than ever, and people still don't understand that it wastes so much time during sets. Just get on with the matches. Hearts aren't a good enough excuse. There's an endless Klassic Tower to farm hearts. Set it to Easy and you're good to go.
Serious changes need to happen, and there's nothing traditional or great about a randomized, monetized Krypt.

 

[zerosebaz]

If you lost to throws and uppercuts, is it really your opponent that is a scrub?

 

[Scheme Kahn't]

Down-2 KB is obviously a casual titillation tool -- given it's a universal, that the hold-check input scheme isn't even a default configuration, and nor is there any penalty or restriction from using said unconscious KB activation method. Then you have the rather homogenised damage outputs of what are meant to be vastly different character archetypes -- rendering the likes of the Kahns, novelties (if not eventual junk tier, neutered 'bosses') -- and the red tape that creates a rather low skill ceiling on combo mechanics (kind of like how SFV watered down its systems).

So, when you hear Ed Boon apologetically preface even trifling gameplay related talk with "...I have to get a little fighting game nerdie" , it's very difficulty to qualify the rote repetitive BnB's and down-1/2 spams as "meta", and handball everything else into the "mind games" basket.

Mindless gameplay providing fertile ground for deep mind games, is a non-sequitur... But, that won't stop myopic shills championing anything the game does, nor even register with the franchise's majority "kasual" player base... And, so, the race to the bottom will continue at pace.

 

[stokedAF]

Why do I keep getting crushed by casuals?!

Answer: design flaw