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Does anyone else feel like MK11 was designed for casuals?

Cashual

PSN: Cansuela
That's the story of this game in a nutshell. Fundamentals are king -- it's hard to BS your way around them.
That’s how I feel and I why I think this game is “harder”. I’m sorry...combos aren’t hard. It’s not hard to cash out damage with the 2-4 characters you play all the time. MKX was not devoid of spacing, I’m not saying that. However, the game was much more conducive to relentlessly applying offense that often centered around mix, pressure, vortex, or setups.

But don’t get me wrong; long combos with run cancels, tons of corner carry, swaggy links....they’re incredibly fun and satisfying to execute. Extended/flashy combos was one of the primary reasons I gravitated towards MK in the first place, so I get why some people miss some of the longer combos. So, I get that 100%, and people have their preferences.

What I’m taking issue with is that OP and many others all over the internet are spreading this narrative that MK11 is easy mode for beginners as a result of the gameplay changes between X and 11. It’s just not true.

I will say that poking in MK11 has me a little confused about what the hell to do at sometimes and it feels scrubby to have someone mash and it work. But I must be missing something or there’s going to be a change to the frames or something haha.
 

omooba

fear the moobs
Watered down? You mean that you have to play a spacing game instead of getting in for free with a run button of half-screen plus on block footsie normal that you can cancel into launching armor?

That you need timing to flawless block instead of just mashing armor in gaps?

If anything this is a case for the game's longevity, not against.
yes that's close to what i mean except you chose to mention these facts in a way to make them seem like these game mechanics are objectively bad... they're not... they're just different
 

ColdBoreMK23

Noob Saibot
I'm taking a break from the game. I have absolutely no problem with footsies or balance of characters. My main issue is the mechanics they implemented ie KB, fatal blows, wake up system, etc. Just don't like them at all. No reason for someone to eat a KB for guessing wrong on a tech.

Also, the hitbox issues are horrible. If I D2 with Noob or Baraka and their D2 goes right through the opponent on block or I do a B2 with Baraka and 50% of the time it whiffs on a jumping opponent and 50% hits, theres something wrong. Same with Skarlets B2. At least make it consistent. Either hit or dont hit.

It's a solid game otherwise but I'm just not feeling it.
 

grandabx

The Flameater
I'm taking a break from the game. I have absolutely no problem with footsies or balance of characters. My main issue is the mechanics they implemented ie KB, fatal blows, wake up system, etc. Just don't like them at all. No reason for someone to eat a KB for guessing wrong on a tech.

Also, the hitbox issues are horrible. If I D2 with Noob or Baraka and their D2 goes right through the opponent on block or I do a B2 with Baraka and 50% of the time it whiffs on a jumping opponent and 50% hits, theres something wrong. Same with Skarlets B2. At least make it consistent. Either hit or dont hit.

It's a solid game otherwise but I'm just not feeling it.
Uppercuts with hitboxes behind the head...

Tournament presets with strange move configurations...

A ridiculous amount of impractical Krushing Blows...

Long-range FBs doing chip-kill...


I feel all KBs should require meter and FBs should be completely removed. Game needs more 2-in-1 combos.
 
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xKMMx

Banned
You just admitted you can’t even use the mechanics as they exist but are arguing it’s too casual. It doesn’t add up, you can’t have it both ways. You can’t judge the game’s meta/potential/depth through the perspective of someone who is not going to utilize the mechanics presented to their potential.

I have a feeling that like many, you have invested time in this game and others, have learned many combos and conversions, watch high level play and consider yourself a part of the FGC.....and yet sometimes you’re still beaten by things you consider cheap or by people employing very very simple tactics that you might even understand but can’t counter. Maybe not, but I see this all the time; players being “good” but losing to bad shit, and faulting the game.

You quoted that post by that guy going into the mkx meta and how complicated it was to conserve resources in order to have meter for armoring through gaps, and rely on meterless damage so that it was an option, etc. He also goes into great detail about how intimate matchup and character knowledge was integral and required a ton of investment.

MK11 is the exact same but with more layers. There’s more gaps in strings, the flawless block mechanic is 100% mandatory for competitive play. Like if you let my skarlet f43 without showing me you will flawless block and punish, you’re getting bullied. You have to constantly manage both your own meter and the opponents. “I read throw ...d2....do I use the KB? They have meter to fall out....nah....neutral duck stand punish”. If you read fallout, you d2 and recover in time and now they’ve used their resources and aren’t at advantage and are helpless next touch and can’t wakeup. I’m not totally sure about whether the current breaker system is a better system or not at this point, but I do know that there’s depth there and counterplay, and that’s always good on some level.

I could go on and on. You can try to argue that mkx has this super high execution barrier, but it’s just not the case, and again, that’s clearly not where the difficulty lies in many fighting games, this one included. Yes, there were some tight links but in so many cases the optimal that required more execution eeked out 3-5% or something beyond very simple combos. I mean, do noobs 113xxdu amp, dash cancel 113,b11+3xx du and land all hits of the second 113 and get the link into b11+3 and do it ten times in a row. It’s not easy. There’s some execution in this game, but perhaps less so in combos but much more in terms of active defense and flawless block.

So many people that play MK in general learn elaborate combos to beat up the AI. I’ll say it again....a lot more people know how to do combos than know how to properly space moves, understand frame data, exploit gaps, utilize frame traps and setups, tech grabs, jump/duck tick throws and lab options against characters tools.

MK11 at high level looks incredible and is so much less reliant on vortexes, 50/50s and jump ins. Don’t get me wrong MK11 has some elements I don’t like, it’s not perfect, and there’s definitely things that feel off (poking/counterpoking, mashing being effective due to a ton of high starters, etc.)

I’m not trying to flame you, be a dick, I just really disagree and think you’re wrong. Nothing personal. Everyone has preferences, you’re entitled to like what you like, but by framing it that it’s somehow a lesser game or more shallow than mkx seems off base and sort of seems like you’re basing that off of you’re own inability to employ the highest level mechanics.

I’m not just stanning, I could rant about things that seem off about the game or that I’m not personally in love with, but compared with mkx, MK11 seems to be a better distillation of what makes fighting games skill based and a true head to head match of wits and dexterity and ultimately so frustrating and satisfying simultaneously.
E
You just admitted you can’t even use the mechanics as they exist but are arguing it’s too casual. It doesn’t add up, you can’t have it both ways. You can’t judge the game’s meta/potential/depth through the perspective of someone who is not going to utilize the mechanics presented to their potential.

I have a feeling that like many, you have invested time in this game and others, have learned many combos and conversions, watch high level play and consider yourself a part of the FGC.....and yet sometimes you’re still beaten by things you consider cheap or by people employing very very simple tactics that you might even understand but can’t counter. Maybe not, but I see this all the time; players being “good” but losing to bad shit, and faulting the game.

You quoted that post by that guy going into the mkx meta and how complicated it was to conserve resources in order to have meter for armoring through gaps, and rely on meterless damage so that it was an option, etc. He also goes into great detail about how intimate matchup and character knowledge was integral and required a ton of investment.

MK11 is the exact same but with more layers. There’s more gaps in strings, the flawless block mechanic is 100% mandatory for competitive play. Like if you let my skarlet f43 without showing me you will flawless block and punish, you’re getting bullied. You have to constantly manage both your own meter and the opponents. “I read throw ...d2....do I use the KB? They have meter to fall out....nah....neutral duck stand punish”. If you read fallout, you d2 and recover in time and now they’ve used their resources and aren’t at advantage and are helpless next touch and can’t wakeup. I’m not totally sure about whether the current breaker system is a better system or not at this point, but I do know that there’s depth there and counterplay, and that’s always good on some level.

I could go on and on. You can try to argue that mkx has this super high execution barrier, but it’s just not the case, and again, that’s clearly not where the difficulty lies in many fighting games, this one included. Yes, there were some tight links but in so many cases the optimal that required more execution eeked out 3-5% or something beyond very simple combos. I mean, do noobs 113xxdu amp, dash cancel 113,b11+3xx du and land all hits of the second 113 and get the link into b11+3 and do it ten times in a row. It’s not easy. There’s some execution in this game, but perhaps less so in combos but much more in terms of active defense and flawless block.

So many people that play MK in general learn elaborate combos to beat up the AI. I’ll say it again....a lot more people know how to do combos than know how to properly space moves, understand frame data, exploit gaps, utilize frame traps and setups, tech grabs, jump/duck tick throws and lab options against characters tools.

MK11 at high level looks incredible and is so much less reliant on vortexes, 50/50s and jump ins. Don’t get me wrong MK11 has some elements I don’t like, it’s not perfect, and there’s definitely things that feel off (poking/counterpoking, mashing being effective due to a ton of high starters, etc.)

I’m not trying to flame you, be a dick, I just really disagree and think you’re wrong. Nothing personal. Everyone has preferences, you’re entitled to like what you like, but by framing it that it’s somehow a lesser game or more shallow than mkx seems off base and sort of seems like you’re basing that off of you’re own inability to employ the highest level mechanics.

I’m not just stanning, I could rant about things that seem off about the game or that I’m not personally in love with, but compared with mkx, MK11 seems to be a better distillation of what makes fighting games skill based and a true head to head match of wits and dexterity and ultimately so frustrating and satisfying simultaneously.
Bummer man. So your saying I have to learn to flawless block to get my membership into the FGC? Shit all this time I figured all I had to do was like playing fighting games and do that with other players.

All kidding aside I guess you have a good point I didn't consider.
Flawless block has been pointed out by many as the "xfactor" that will serperate the men from the boys in this game at high level play. So you for sure have a good point. Its not 100 percent casual.

My thoughts were more based around the fact that some things offensively that require little to no skill are OP in this game. IE throws, D2, and sounds like you agree poke mashing is entirely too effective.

I have been spending a ton of time trying to learn flawless block and punish but so far I'm really just lucky if I execute it.

In the end I'm glad I made this thread and glad people far more experienced in fighting games and far more skilled in this game have given their insight and viewpoints. I would have gained nothing from having this thread be an echo chamber of people telling me how "right" I am and how much they agree.
Just like losing in the game I got a lot more out of people telling me where I'm wrong or haven't given things enough of a chance.
 
i dont play many other fighting games outside of nrs, last was vf5. but what i noticed extremly in mkx and mk11 are the gigantic hitboxes on attacks. someone just sticks a foot out and its like he throws a brick wall at you. can anyone confirm its not like that in other games? because somehow this gives the game a "baby's first fighting game" feel.
 

mn_tercercine

you can call me blue cheese, because I am DRESSING
i dont play many other fighting games outside of nrs, last was vf5. but what i noticed extremly in mkx and mk11 are the gigantic hitboxes on attacks. someone just sticks a foot out and its like he throws a brick wall at you. can anyone confirm its not like that in other games? because somehow this gives the game a "baby's first fighting game" feel.

I don't notice that being the case, personally. Most of the attacks like that will be either slow to start up, punishable on block or duckable. Which attacks specifically are you referring to?

I guess I could definitely see someone making that observation about Erron's f4 lol.
 

Cashual

PSN: Cansuela
E

Bummer man. So your saying I have to learn to flawless block to get my membership into the FGC? Shit all this time I figured all I had to do was like playing fighting games and do that with other players.

All kidding aside I guess you have a good point I didn't consider.
Flawless block has been pointed out by many as the "xfactor" that will serperate the men from the boys in this game at high level play. So you for sure have a good point. Its not 100 percent casual.

My thoughts were more based around the fact that some things offensively that require little to no skill are OP in this game. IE throws, D2, and sounds like you agree poke mashing is entirely too effective.

I have been spending a ton of time trying to learn flawless block and punish but so far I'm really just lucky if I execute it.

In the end I'm glad I made this thread and glad people far more experienced in fighting games and far more skilled in this game have given their insight and viewpoints. I would have gained nothing from having this thread be an echo chamber of people telling me how "right" I am and how much they agree.
Just like losing in the game I got a lot more out of people telling me where I'm wrong or haven't given things enough of a chance.
Haha, good post man. And overall, it’s a good discussion. Definitely no hate, and I’m not trying to act like this phenomenal player, I’m not.

I think your initial hot take is just maybe a little too reactionary, and I stand by my comment that you (anyone) can’t claim the game is overly casual and simultaneously ignore/discount high level mechanics that are anything other than casual.

I’ll just read posts like yours here or on Reddit or wherever, and get the sense the poster is basically salty that they lost to basic tactics or what they see as an abuse of cheap tactics and dismiss the game as casual. That very well may not be where you’re coming from, but I’ve seen it enough that I don’t think it’s crazy that I got that impression. The game isn’t perfect, there’s things I personally don’t love or would’ve done differently , but this game feels very competitive minded to me.

And we could break down flawless blocking and how it’s implemented and whether it’s a good system or not in another thread, but it does undoubtedly add depth and counterplay.

As far as flawless blocking, a good way to get the feel is to record AI fling projectiles from full screen and walk back and experiment with the timing. It’s not too crazy. What I’ve done is when I’ve had problems with certain strings or it seems like there’s a gap, I’ll take the character to practice and record the string and play around with interrupting and flawless block punishes. I got bullied by Liu Kang and felt like it was never my turn and learned that if he does the kick string with the delay I can get a full combo and just labbed it.

Good luck dude and we will all keep leveling up together
 

Red Hood MKX

Mercenary dog
Fatal blows is the only mechanic that makes me want to uninstall mk11. I mean wtf Nrs seriously i just cant. Ive been playing fighting games for 10 plus years and I've never lost so much because of one broken mechanic like fatal blows. it needs to be gone from the game or do less damage or take away its armor something needs to be done
 

xKMMx

Banned
Haha, good post man. And overall, it’s a good discussion. Definitely no hate, and I’m not trying to act like this phenomenal player, I’m not.

I think your initial hot take is just maybe a little too reactionary, and I stand by my comment that you (anyone) can’t claim the game is overly casual and simultaneously ignore/discount high level mechanics that are anything other than casual.

I’ll just read posts like yours here or on Reddit or wherever, and get the sense the poster is basically salty that they lost to basic tactics or what they see as an abuse of cheap tactics and dismiss the game as casual. That very well may not be where you’re coming from, but I’ve seen it enough that I don’t think it’s crazy that I got that impression. The game isn’t perfect, there’s things I personally don’t love or would’ve done differently , but this game feels very competitive minded to me.

And we could break down flawless blocking and how it’s implemented and whether it’s a good system or not in another thread, but it does undoubtedly add depth and counterplay.

As far as flawless blocking, a good way to get the feel is to record AI fling projectiles from full screen and walk back and experiment with the timing. It’s not too crazy. What I’ve done is when I’ve had problems with certain strings or it seems like there’s a gap, I’ll take the character to practice and record the string and play around with interrupting and flawless block punishes. I got bullied by Liu Kang and felt like it was never my turn and learned that if he does the kick string with the delay I can get a full combo and just labbed it.

Good luck dude and we will all keep leveling up together
Yep found that LK gap myself this weekend by accident and was super stoked cause ive been KB'd a bunch by it and its annoying AF.
 

xKMMx

Banned
LMAO.
This guy is saying MK11 is designed for nubs and casuals and one of his complains is the fact that he has to think twice before doing his combo.

Every of your complaint is just game mechanic that is counterable. Maybe start asking yourself why you are get mashed all the time, why you are get thrown all the time, why you can't read air escapes and why you get hit by every fatal blow. Maybe it's not the scrub tactics that are strong in this game, but you are just weak?
Bet id tear you in half. First to 5 anytime bubba.
 

OzzFoxx

Hardcore gaming poser.
If this game was made for casuals, it would be a lot of fun to play. The casual game dries up quick when there is only mind games involved. Casuals just wanna bash out combos and this game ain’t that. It pays off slow, thinking players; a competitive players dream. Its a hardcore game, I’m getting used to the differences myself.
 

xKMMx

Banned
Sounds more like salt talking. This same type of argument gets said pretty much any time a new fighting game in a series comes out.
I appreciate you saying it man. Like I said I could just be salty over the fact that I am trying hard to learn this new game and also learning to actually play neutral while having to wade through match after match of people that just don't give a damn to learn .
 
"Easy" to learn, hard to master, like every game should be.

And by "easy" I mean, MK is still a super hard game to learn for casuals that not play fighting games regularly.

There is no way skill gap is low, as sonicfox is kicking everyone's ass.
 

xKMMx

Banned
If this game was made for casuals, it would be a lot of fun to play. The casual game dries up quick when there is only mind games involved. Casuals just wanna bash out combos and this game ain’t that. It pays off slow, thinking players; a competitive players dream. Its a hardcore game, I’m getting used to the differences myself.
Makes sense. I guess I gotta just keep pushing and trying hard to learn this slower paced game and find out how to pressure some one more mentally than physically. I learned fighting games on MKX so my mentality is so all about just dusting someone as fast as possible.
I used to just body people with HQT Predator and that shit just doesn't work in this game so its a huge learning experience. I guess like some have said I made my judgements on this game a little too fast.
 

Krabman

Noob
I miss the hard execution that MKX had on some things. The Run cancels, IA Quake, quick conversion combos that lead to big damage. I'm so bored of this game already.
 

Blade4693

VIVIVI
The flawless block mechanic that is sure to be prevalent the more the game is out is diffidently not designed for casuals. Maybe at the very basic level it is more casual friendly but I don't see it being that way in the long run. Flawless block, break outs, rolls etc. are all things that I don't think designed for casuals.