Why Sub Zero Should Not Be Nerfed. The GrandMaster Speaks.

[TheIrishFGCguy]

Dude, in practice mode when you are expecting a move of course is 1 million times easier. If we record any move and try what you did, we can even flawless block 6 frames pokes consistently. Doing that in a game is a whole new story, if you want to make a point, post a video of you flawless blocking every time similar moves, like erron f4 (26 frames), scorpion b3 (27 frames) or sure, subs f4, but in a real game.

I watched DetroitBallin on stream play against a Sub with his Kabal and he flawless blocked and punished F4 multiple times when the Sub player tried to use it in neutral. It has a 28 frame startup, which is slow as hell, and a very distinct animation. It really shouldn't be hard to react to with a bit of practice to recognise the animation.

 

[DragonofDadashov24]

Nobody says that he is the fastest dashing character that closes any gap on screen in 1-2 seconds.

 

[M.D.]

 

[BolverkGTM]

I don't think anyone should be getting nerfed in the second week of the game. Not even the second month of the game. Remember when we had to sit on dumb characters for YEARS? People find a way to deal with them. People may even find MORE dumb characters if they sit on them long enough. The only thing that should be happening this early on is maaaaybe buffs for the bottom characters. That's it. Leave everyone else alone and let the game fester for a while. People gotta start learning match-ups again instead of sitting and waiting for a patch.

 

[RM Ree]

Nobody says that he is the fastest dashing character that closes any gap on screen in 1-2 seconds.

Source this, foo

 

[Landonio]

I'm kinda indifferent on Dead of Winter because I don't play it and I like using my brain. But I like how that armchair quarterback moron in the comment section is like "his overhead is 19 frames!" like that's actually reactable online LMAO. "All you had to do was block bro!" smh

If that same s*** happened to him he'd probably want to upload a video too.

 

[mrapchem]

Sub-zero is fine. The only nerf he should receive would be to reduce the hit adv from his s2. Do that and his setup shown by Tom is gone. If SZ gets nerfed, then Sonya needs to get nerfed and and EB needs to get nerfed. It would be an issue if any of his 2 50/50s was safe or kinda safe.

I was going to say exactly this and then add that Sub's b32 and b14 strings should be less plus on hit, so that he can't loop his 50/50s infinitely. The issue here isn't that Sub has mix - it's how he was designed - but rather, that he has loopable mix in the MKX Grandmaster tradition, except it can be done anywhere on screen. As long as Sub-Zero cannot loop his 50/50, I believe he will still be good, but not anti-meta.

The overhead is slower and unsafe when cancelled into anything, while the low is safe, but it has to be hit-confirmed to make it safe. The 50/50 he has is powerful, but not broken; one option not only requires resources, but it is full-combo punishable. And it certainly doesn't need to be nerfed at this point in the game because we're merely beginning to scratch the surface of the characters' capabilities in MK11.

 

[Auron]

You want to talk nerfs, you best be starting with those two, and after EVO is over.

Oh yeah let's have a shit joke EVO for no reason other than "let's not nerf the obviously stronger top 5" that sounds perfectly rational.

 

[M.D.]

Ah the UBERMASTER forgot to mention subzero can stagger his low string, so he practically shits on the entire video and the entire fuzzy poke tech presented there.

Enjoy evo lol.

 

[RM Ree]

Ah the UBERMASTER forgot to mention subzero can stagger his low string, so he practically shits on the entire video and the entire fuzzy poke tech presented there.

Enjoy evo lol.

Lol you’ve been a professional SZ hater since MKX.

Probably just go back to blocking low when the rest of the string didn’t happen, same as any stagger. Or counter poke since raw b3 is negative on block.

F2 is reactable anyway. Played a friend of mine for an hour and he was blocking and punishing the 50/50 almost every time, even with me mixing up the timing. I think the only time I hit him with either b3 or f2 was after baiting a poke and punishing. Dude was also flawless blocking f4 and punishing that regularly.

Idk, I don’t think he’s a case of an OP character. It seems like no one wants to get into the lab and practice their defense.

 

[mrapchem]

Ah the UBERMASTER forgot to mention subzero can stagger his low string, so he practically shits on the entire video and the entire fuzzy poke tech presented there.

Enjoy evo lol.

Stagger the low string? I don't know. . .at best, he's at -4 on block, while the low itself is 13 frames. The opponent has 17 frames minimum to interrupt any iteration of B32 into another B3. And they have 10 frames to interrupt B3 into D1 on block - if the Sub does D1 at the very earliest he can do it. Sub-Zero has some powerful stuff right now, but stagger pressure from B3 isn't amongst that stuff.

 

[Rpgz]

Love it when he says "my first reaction is to flawless block" he knows that most people arent flawless blocking on reaction right? But then again TB aint most sub players....hes good for the scene imo. Buffs! No nerfs Plz!

 

[Landonio]

Lol you’ve been a professional SZ hater since MKX.

Probably just go back to blocking low when the rest of the string didn’t happen, same as any stagger. Or counter poke since raw b3 is negative on block.

F2 is reactable anyway. Played a friend of mine for an hour and he was blocking and punishing the 50/50 almost every time, even with me mixing up the timing. I think the only time I hit him with either b3 or f2 was after baiting a poke and punishing. Dude was also flawless blocking f4 and punishing that regularly.

Idk, I don’t think he’s a case of an OP character. It seems like no one wants to get into the lab and practice their defense.

No one's going to (consistently) react to a 19-frame move in an online environment. I'm sorry. Your friend is either not human, or just a good guesser/lucky. Odds are highly in favor of the latter.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Man I love Tom brady rants!!!

And as usual, he preaches the truth.

Where's the outcry for Erron nerfs, he only has a full screen dead of winter mix? Oh wait, people only mindlessly drone on about whatever sonic fox says. And sonic fox has wanted sub nerfed every MK.

 

[RM Ree]

No one's going to (consistently) react to a 19-frame move in an online environment. I'm sorry. You're friend is either not human, or just a good guesser/lucky. Odds are highly in favor of the latter.

How do people break throws online I wonder

 

[Landonio]

How do people break throws online I wonder

Um, because there's a window to break it after the button is pressed. This is the case in every fighting game. There's no "window" to block an attack after it connects. You either block it or you don't.

I could be wrong and someone please correct me if I am, but most throws come out in 12 frames, and you have roughly a 9-10 frame window to tech it. That comes out to about 22 frames, which is right on the cusp of what's humanly reactable. Good players who practice throw breaks will be able to do it consistently. But it is a mix-up, so no one's ever going to break 100% of throws no matter how good they are at it. Not to mention that a lot of successful throw techs are complete accidents.

You're just making yourself look foolish now.

EDIT: Oh, and there's also a throw tech option select if you do 1~2 or 2~1 (1~2 seems a little more consistent IMHO) with perfect timing. Some top players are probably already doing this. And I'm sure plenty of people online have done it unintentionally.

 

[M.D.]

10% of them by reads, 90% of them because they were already mashing d2

 

[The_Tile]

I feel like the reasoning of this video hinges almost entirely on not being able to delay B3 as it whiffs, but unless I'm missing something cant you just do a micro dash into B3/F2 and still have them both jail?

Or isn't there another string with enough hit advantage to guarantee both the OH and low, i.e B32? Someone posted a vid of Theo using that in the thread earlier.

I'm not calling for nerfs yet but idk man, the reasoning on the Sub Zero side seems a bit suspect.

 

[RM Ree]

Um, because there's a window to break it after the button is pressed. This is the case in every fighting game. There's no "window" to block an attack after it connects. You either block it or you don't.

I could be wrong and someone please correct me if I am, but most throws come out in 12 frames, and you have roughly a 9-10 frame window to tech it. That comes out to about 22 frames, which is right on the cusp of what's humanly reactable. Good players who practice throw breaks will be able to do it consistently. But it is a mix-up, so no one's ever going to break 100% of throws no matter how good they are at it. Not to mention that a lot of successful throw techs are complete accidents.

You're just making yourself look foolish now.

EDIT: Oh, and there's also a throw tech option select if you do 1~2 or 2~1 (1~2 seems a little more consistent IMHO) with perfect timing. Some top players are probably already doing this. And I'm sure plenty of people online have done it unintentionally.

Ya but throws are 10f, not 12. You said the throw break window is 9-10f so... that means you’re saying people are reacting to a 19-20f window? Interesting, that’s about how long SZ’s f2 takes to connect. And in an online environment, players have to react even faster to compensate for latency.

The other figure you mentioned, 22f being in the cusp of human reaction? That’s on average, a little slower even. Repeated exposure to stimulus, or “practice,” reduces that number (exactly how much depends on the person).

And that throw break option select isn’t really an option select. The moment you input a 1 or 2, the game reads it and rejects the the 2nd input.

Ok, now you go.

 

[Versa]

I don't think a lot of you know what "safe 50/50s" means.

A safe 50/50 means that both mix up options are safe on block. This is obviously not the case with Sub Zero as people have said multiple times throughout this thread that his overhead option is extremely punishable every time you block it.

Some of you are not even bothering to go to training mode before whining. And a lot of you obviously need to read a guide on how frame data works as well.

The truth of the matter is players only want to lose a certain way, and a character based around guessing offends people's sensibilities. But just because you don't like HOW SZ wins doesn't mean the character is unfair.

 

[M.D.]

In order to punish, you still have to guess through low or overhead, staggers, throws, d1, ex ball or finish the string.

16bit: we wanted to focus less on 50-50s in this game.

Yes, for other characters obviously.

The problem is not that SubZero has this kind of vortex, the issue is that 80% of the cast doesn't.

You take a honest MK11 char with no overheads, no staggers, all strings -5 and above, and put him against Sub Zero.
Anything the character does is a green light for a subzero vortex, where you begin to guess.

And trust me, you will have to guess a lot more to win than the Sub Zero player has to guess your non mixups and -5 strings into throw.

 

[Braindead]

Lmao MD still talking out of his ass just because he hated Subzero since MKX.

Keep on jobbering son

 

[M.D.]

Truth is a bitch I know

 

[Savage8-8]

Lol you’ve been a professional SZ hater since MKX.

Probably just go back to blocking low when the rest of the string didn’t happen, same as any stagger. Or counter poke since raw b3 is negative on block.

F2 is reactable anyway. Played a friend of mine for an hour and he was blocking and punishing the 50/50 almost every time, even with me mixing up the timing. I think the only time I hit him with either b3 or f2 was after baiting a poke and punishing. Dude was also flawless blocking f4 and punishing that regularly.

Idk, I don’t think he’s a case of an OP character. It seems like no one wants to get into the lab and practice their defense.

Nah son. If yo mix beat ma mix yo mix gots da go

 

[Versa]

Sonic Fox uploaded multiple videos of him blocking that overhead on reaction btw.

So not only are y'all crying about an unsafe overhead, but also one that is reactable.

This character is likely not even as good as most think and is still going to get nerfed into the ground because of the vocal mediocre. Yikes.