Why Sub Zero Should Not Be Nerfed. The GrandMaster Speaks.

[CrimsonShadow]

I know what nerfs are needed for. But you can't tell me D'vorah deserved to be destroyed on day -1 before she even started. NRS has proven time and time again that their nerfs are horrible. I'd rather NRS try a different route to make the game more interesting. Make everybody fun to start with giving them dirt THEN adjust that way. But if you start nerfing characters already, that just makes characters unfun to play. Thats just how I see it.

You completely missed the point of everything I said. Nerfs aren't about the tier list. How good a character like D'Vorah ends up being is determined by what they have left, and if you give them something new to make up for that part of their gameplay that you adjusted. You're complaining about the tier list. Nerfs are about the gameplay.

 

[JBeezYBabY]

You completely missed the point of everything I said. Nerfs aren't about the tier list. How good a character like D'Vorah ends up being is determined by what they have left, and if you give them something new to make up for that part of their gameplay that you adjusted. You're complaining about the tier list. Nerfs are about the gameplay.

I'm not talking about tier lists. Im just talking this nerf culture in general that NRS scene always cry for for the sake of balance. Its lame and the vanilla version of MK11 is the result of that. Thats all. Bye bye.

 

[JTC]

Give us custom variations. Problem solved.

The last bit of the vid is hilarious. Never change lord brady.

 

[Moms4lif3]

@JBeezYBabY as a followup I'll give a specific example. When Injustice 2 launched Black Adam was able to throw a ton of stuff out in footsie range with very little risk, end it a few different ways post-cancel and convert literally everything in to massive 500pt damage. 'Buffing everyone else' to be just as braindead would serve to make the game stupid (it's not what the meta was intended to be). You don't lower the risk vs. reward ratio for an entire cast to make a game mindless, just because it's out of whack for one character.

Not to mention that in doing that you're likely to break more things than you fix.

The correct call was fixing Black Adam's risk reward+damage potential and that's what they did.

Good example. If they brought every character up to that kind of lvl, they basically throw core mechanics out the window since everybody has stuff that’s broken -.-

As of now, no character is broken per se IMO. Geras for example is really, really good, but does he really have anything that’s totally unfair? No. His damage output might be kinda ridiculous, especially considering all of his options. But the character’s overall design is pretty good, just like subs. Slight tweaks will already bring them down a whole lot I think.

Little changes make ALL the difference and all this complaining often results in characters being overbuffed or -nerfed. Wouldn’t it be nice if all characters were viable enough to compete on roughly the same level?

 

[Metzos]

Sub-zero is fine. The only nerf he should receive would be to reduce the hit adv from his s2. Do that and his setup shown by Tom is gone. If SZ gets nerfed, then Sonya needs to get nerfed and and EB needs to get nerfed. It would be an issue if any of his 2 50/50s was safe or kinda safe.

 

[ConvictedChidoriPSN]

As some of you may know, Sub Zero has a history of being really good when the game comes out, but then shortly after the game comes out, he gets nerfed into oblivion while other characters get to keep their dirt. I say let everyone have their dirt until there's an abundance of evidence to suggest that they should be nerfed. Let's at least wait until we have a few majors under our belt. In this video, Tom Brady speaks about why Sub Zero should not be nerfed. Besides making a lot of good points about why they should let him be, it's highly entertaining. I could not control my laughter at certain points in this video, but I will let the grandmaster do the speaking for me as only he can do, with intelligence and a side of humor.

The only thing I think should be adjusted is the recovery time from being hit with ice ball, Sub-Zero should be punished for not hitting the opponent while they are frozen IMO its too easy to not screw it up but who am I to speak for thw grandmaster

 

[ConvictedChidoriPSN]

Good example. If they brought every character up to that kind of lvl, they basically throw core mechanics out the window since everybody has stuff that’s broken -.-

As of now, no character is broken per se IMO. Geras for example is really, really good, but does he really have anything that’s totally unfair? No. His damage output might be kinda ridiculous, especially considering all of his options. But the character’s overall design is pretty good, just like subs. Slight tweaks will already bring them down a whole lot I think.

Little changes make ALL the difference and all this complaining often results in characters being overbuffed or -nerfed. Wouldn’t it be nice if all characters were viable enough to compete on roughly the same level?

Agree 99% only problem i have with geras is when I get frozen and he just uppercuts me while I am suspended, I think its fair but dang its cringy to watch

 

[Moms4lif3]

Haha well u won’t be happy to find out he does almost double dmg on his uppercuts once he charges his glove fully. it goes from 140dmg to like 230dmg. until he uses his db2,1 it stays for the match too LUL

 

[The Gabriel]

Nerfs make games bland and boring, buffs make games fun, interesting, and long-lasting.

Nerfs are doubly ridiculous in a game like this where simply allowing custom variations would go a long way to giving other characters the chance to compete.

 

[Sultani]

Safe zero is WAY too safe. "Oh look its ok cuz u can flawlezzsz blokk." Lol so dumb.

 

[Braindead]

The fear is real.

Only for the reason that this nerf panic exists he should be nerfed.

Make him feel the a-list pain.

Ok watched the entire thing, it's full of crap as I thought.

99% of the time i'm gonna flawless block this -> misses 5 flawless blocks. Good luck doing that with 10% life in the tournament bub. Nerf that shit.

Then about the mixup, he spent the entire video "if he delays it, if he does that, if he does that". Brah, that's called GUESSING. It's called a MIXup and it is there.
The problem is not that it is there, the problem is that it is SAFE. He doesn't do overhead in ice ball, he does the kicks. As many times as it takes, you still die.
If you guess one right, TOUGH luck. Back in the blender.

Everyone with a mixup should have one option -20 or more. The balanced mixup chars in the game have this. He guesses your mixup, YOU EAT 30% period.

That is the problem here and he mentions none of that, obviously.

Nerf that piece of crap character back to mid tier.
And yes, along with erron, obviously.

Lmao nice rant based on shit you don't know

Go lab things for a change and git gud

 

[ETC AdmiralAugustus]

Every time a new mk drops I feel like Tom Brady gets me stuck in a kronika time loop with these vids

 

[Moms4lif3]

Every time a new mk drops I feel like Tom Brady gets me stuck in a kronika time loop with these vids

Also: Aquaman‘s trait in Injustice 2 did not work correctly and was never fixed. How dare u NRS.

 

[-Nachtmahr-]

I would nerf scorpion instead. Way too much dmg while you basically only need f3, f4 and his overhead. Both very forward advancing good moves and a teleport vs zonig thst leads into 35- 50% dmg. Sub is fine as a mixdown character and seems a bit glitchy on some moves which should be fixed. Ed, we know you are s Scorps guy but there are just as many of us Sub fans. But his launcher and oh should be at least unsafe or more negative. -2 for a launcher? Nah

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

I would rather just have them take away Sub’s 50/50 vortex since you can’t really fuzzy starters but he can keep everything else. I want them to nerf Sonya’s 50/50 too because b12 vs b14 ERC in the corner is the dumbest shit ever. Most of the characters in this game only really need fairly minor nerfs to bring them in line. The game feels pretty balanced off early impressions.

I'm against Nerfs unless they are actually game breaking and this one is not but I don't feel what you suggested even addressed what the issue was.
In the corner for a bar she can get true 50/50 off a bar Ring Cancel into 50+% yeah that should be toned but why Nerf her strings they are pretty balanced outside of the cancel. Just Nerf the ring cancel not allowing it to get mix off B12/B14.

I think she is one if the strongest characters in the game next to: Erron, Geras, Scorpion, SubZero, Cassie and Kabal but I like that they have good tools most of the cast feels lackluster and incomplete and I'd like the rest to come up to the A+ tier level. Maybe custom variations or more Variations will do this or a few lower tiers getting minor buffs will. MKX/MK9 tiers where world's apart from 11 and what was S/A tier in those games are way above what S is in this game. Our A tier is like MKX mid tier or even lower in some cases.

This game is balanced almost perfectly aside from a few things we don't even have bottom tier just mid tier aside from Kotal, D'Vorah, Shao and Frost having obvious problems but we do have a lack of freedom in 11. Characters don't have comboability like any previous mk titles or the mound of tech there was in mkx. I'm sure more is to be discovered but it seems characters are generally limited compared to X. I used many characters in X and got very board with basic variations that got nerfed to Oblivion: Cyrax, Ethereal Mileena, Kenshi before buffs, Tremor after Nerfs, ect. I found myself using characters with more depth: frame Traps, cancels and pushback to get creative and Cyraxs set play. I just don't want all the fun stuff to be absent, by all means Nerf what's truly broke but they always Nerf the wrong things instead of the tool that was broke.

Rant over

 

[ETC AdmiralAugustus]

Also: Aquaman‘s trait in Injustice 2 did not work correctly and was never fixed. How dare u NRS.

But did you even look at that knee?

 

[Thingy]

I just want to see this vanilla meta get fleshed out completely. I really hate seeing people talk about nerfs or buffs so early. Sub is strong for sure...but lets give this game some time.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Nerfs make games bland and boring, buffs make games fun, interesting, and long-lasting.

Nerfs are doubly ridiculous in a game like this where simply allowing custom variations would go a long way to giving other characters the chance to compete.

I mean, 1) You can't make that massive generalization. It's on a case-by-case basis, and 2) That's patently false. A lot of things are nerfed precisely because they make the game play more interesting by making a character less 1-dimensionally oppressive. It diversifies the meta and that's the entire point.

These are the kinds of things you read on forums that just make you scratch your head.

 

[The Gabriel]

I mean, 1) You can't make that massive generalization. It's on a case-by-case basis, and 2) That's patently false. A lot of things are nerfed precisely because they make the game play more interesting by making a character less 1-dimensionally oppressive. It diversifies the meta and that's the entire point.

These are the kinds of things you read on forums that just make you scratch your head.

Yes, you can look at 30 years of competitive fighting games and draw conclusions.

The meta would be more diversified by giving other characters buffs to compete. Taking away characters' options makes the cast homogenized and dull. Tournament players and non-NRS players get this - why don't you?

 

[RM Ree]

I would nerf scorpion instead. Way too much dmg while you basically only need f3, f4 and his overhead. Both very forward advancing good moves and a teleport vs zonig thst leads into 35- 50% dmg. Sub is fine as a mixdown character and seems a bit glitchy on some moves which should be fixed. Ed, we know you are s Scorps guy but there are just as many of us Sub fans. But his launcher and oh should be at least unsafe or more negative. -2 for a launcher? Nah

It’s -1 if you space it right. But srsly, you’re not gonna combo into anything unless you cancel into ice ball which is very unsafe.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Yes, you can look at 30 years of competitive fighting games and draw conclusions.

The meta would be more diversified by giving other characters buffs to compete. Taking away characters' options makes the cast homogenized and dull. Tournament players and non-NRS players get this - why don't you?

'Compete' via a one-dimensional meta is exactly what makes the gameplay dull. You don't fix a one-dimensionally reward-heavy character by making other characters one-dimensonally reward-heavy/low risk to match.

It's not about 'taking characters options away' -- it's about enabling the use of all the other options by toning a specific option down if it dominates the meta to an excessive degree without the appropriate risk. When done correctly it makes a characters' gameplay more diverse, not less.

Also, that's another common falsehood. Both nerfs and buffs are common and commonly accepted in every other fighting game community for the reasons listed above.

 

[jcbowie]

I don't like that we're calling potentially removing or adjusting a hyper-powerful vortex from Sub that feels kinda unintended a "nerf." It's not making him bad at the things he is supposed to be good at, it's a small change to steer the character's optimal playstyle back to what was intended.

 

[Invincible Salads]

sub is fine

 

[Perk]

for my $0.02, I can't fathom how you'd nerf a character and being doing the player base a service within a week. I'm coming from mostly an SF background, and picked sub since I played him in the arcades as a kid and wanted to get into this new MK because 11 is hella fun and theres goddamn defensive options lol. I'm sort of lost because sub's able to get a pretty good mix going, but once you stop his flow hes pretty punishable. Let alone being able to be zoned pretty easily. From what everyones saying, seems like we just need NRS to let us mess with more variations before touching sub's frames. Again, $0.02 thoughts coming from another part of the FGC. Shit, Geras has a long ass reach and Noob's super can hit full screen and the man can punish jumps without thought. And Tom's vid at the end had me rolling LOL

 

[RM Ree]

Ran into another SZ player online. We were launching left and right after flawless blocking each other’s f4’s. Feels good man.