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PATCH TIME BOYZ!...2.0

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
I appreciate your thoughts on this. Please continue----



Interesting. I hear what you're saying, but if they were to buff a character, say--the joker, do you really think "it would create an enviroment where everything is unreactable"?

If I've learned anything from games in general (though I'm new to IJ2) is that there's never any real balance. Certain characters or groups will always be better. Nature of the beast.

Quick story: I remember when Warriors, Deathknights and Mages in WoW were dominating the charts in damage. Always!! What did I do?

I geared the hell out of my Paladin to the point where when I did raids, no matter who was there, I was ALWAYS in the top 3 in damage. I never asked for nerfs to those classes. I became so well known that I was one of the most powerful players in all of Warcraft.

Just a little background into me....
And you never responded to my last comment to you...
 

alkipot

Purse first, ass last.
I appreciate your thoughts on this. Please continue----



Interesting. I hear what you're saying, but if they were to buff a character, say--the joker, do you really think "it would create an enviroment where everything is unreactable"?

If I've learned anything from games in general (though I'm new to IJ2) is that there's never any real balance. Certain characters or groups will always be better. Nature of the beast.

Quick story: I remember when Warriors, Deathknights and Mages in WoW were dominating the charts in damage. Always!! What did I do?

I geared the hell out of my Paladin to the point where when I did raids, no matter who was there, I was ALWAYS in the top 3 in damage. I never asked for nerfs to those classes. I became so well known that I was one of the most powerful players in all of Warcraft.

Just a little background into me....
I used to play WoW over a decade ago, and most people don't give two shits about a class being powerful in PvE. EVERYBODY complained about Deathknights, mages and PALADINS in PvP though. If you played on a PvE server you've weakened your argument even further.
 

Thundergodd

Mortal
You basically took my entire post out of context, that is impressive. My first point was that I as a player who plays these characters in tournaments has a connection to them like people who "main" them.
Dude, that's NOT what you said. here are your very words... "I play them in tournaments with money on the line, I'd say that qualifies as me having a stake in how good they are."

You literally said because you I play them in tournaments with money on the line, and that this qualifies as me having a stake in how good they are. How is this out of context??? You said this!!!

If youre talking about that interview that Sonic did he wasnt making a numbered list. He just said who the top tier was. I haven't seen anyone who puts Black Adam outside of top 2 or 3.
In my humble noob opinion, of this i can agree.

I read your posts and 99% of them is defending Black Adam while fleetingly saying no one should get nerfs.
Then you haven't gotten the gist of my meaning. My point has ALWAYS been about nerfing ANYONE, whether it be Superman, Deadshot, Aquaman, etc. Go re-read them again. Black Adam is just a example character that's been tossed in the conversation.
 
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Thundergodd

Mortal
Ummm just go to Twitter and you'll see they complain as much as anyone else lol because there are characters with legit unfair stuff in the game, no match-up experience and no practice will take away Black Adam's damage, Aquaman's chip damage, Batman's pressure, Catwoman's hurtbox issues, Atrocitus...

So yeah, they also complain about stuff that needs to get changed. As I said, just go to twitter and you'll see for yourself. Also, I can tell you are new here since you obviousky missed when literally EVERY top player complained extremely hard about MKX Tanya/Alien/Mileena/Sub Zero/Kung Lao/Shinnok (basically every top tier in MKX's lifetime) or when they complained about Batgirl/Zod/Flash/Martian Manhunter/Aquaman in IGAU or when they are complaining right now about Black Adam/Aquaman/Batman/Atrocitus/Catwoman...
Much obliged on the info. Sadly, I don't follow Twiiter and don't have an account (too damn busy with life in general). If you could get me few quotes of the top players' thoughts on nerfing these characters, that would be greatly appreciated. This is why I like this site; MOST people here like yourself will help out a noob player with questions like these. Kudos to you.

But I don't know what do tournament players have to do here?
Personal preference, that's it. I like to follow the top people in any genre and get their insights on things whether it's good or bad. Always follow the best is my motto.....
 

Thundergodd

Mortal
Just calling you Thunderwall from here on, since you're so thick headed. I don't write down every time a top player complains as I don't fellate their every word like you. Look up tweets from those you worship. Google is your friend. Here's Chris G complaining about SFV:

You know what, if you have to insult people in order to prove your point or don't follow the crowd, then don't answer. If politeness is beyond your scope, don't pay attention to me. Go about your business and I'll go about mine and talk with the rest of the people here in a civil and courteous manner.
 

Thundergodd

Mortal
Bruuuh you had one job
Heh. Give him a break, brother. The man is just trying to get his point across (which I appreciate greatly).

We've all misspelled here and there.

P.S.

Where did that reference come from? I forgot, but I remember it being funny as hell.....
 

Thundergodd

Mortal
Great but these are fighting games bruh, different kind of beast

Okay, let me ask you a simple question since you are more experienced than I am....

Are there any fighting games with a large roster like this where everyone is relatively balanced? It's an honest question.

According to some here iirc, even after patches, IGAU was still imbalanced.
 

Thundergodd

Mortal
I used to play WoW over a decade ago, and most people don't give two shits about a class being powerful in PvE. EVERYBODY complained about Deathknights, mages and PALADINS in PvP though. If you played on a PvE server you've weakened your argument even further.
I played both and yeah, there was heavy complaining about those classes.
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
Okay, let me ask you a simple question since you are more experienced than I am....

Are there any fighting games with a large roster like this where everyone is relatively balanced? It's an honest question.

According to some here iirc, even after patches, IGAU was still imbalanced.
Every fighting game I've played wasn't perfectly balanced HOWEVER even in games like sf, Tekken and KOF i always felt i could level up in someway and improve. Even in bad MU's I felt ideas able to overcome it. In this game if you are a low tier user, you are literally grasping at straws. You have to make the best reads, calculate your strikes and hope for the best because if you mess up once, IT IS OVER.
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
Every fighting game I've played wasn't perfectly balanced HOWEVER even in games like sf, Tekken and KOF i always felt i could level up in someway and improve. Even in bad MU's I felt i was able to overcome it. In this game if you are a low tier user, you are literally grasping at straws. You have to make the best reads, calculate your strikes and hope for the best because if you mess up once, IT IS OVER.
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
Okay, let me ask you a simple question since you are more experienced than I am....

Are there any fighting games with a large roster like this where everyone is relatively balanced? It's an honest question.

According to some here iirc, even after patches, IGAU was still imbalanced.
And btw all other fighters I've played had balance patches
 

Thundergodd

Mortal
Every fighting game I've played wasn't perfectly balanced HOWEVER even in games like sf, Tekken and KOF i always felt i could level up in someway and improve. Even in bad MU's I felt ideas able to overcome it. In this game if you are a low tier user, you are literally grasping at straws. You have to make the best reads, calculate your strikes and hope for the best because if you mess up once, IT IS OVER.
So you acknowledge no fighting game is ever balanced, but you'd like to see I2 get a closer balance like Tekken and KOF? Is that it?

Oh, and what comment did you want me to respond to?
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
Dude, that's NOT what you said. here are your very words... "I play them in tournaments with money on the line, I'd say that qualifies as me having a stake in how good they are."

You literally said because you I play them in tournaments with money on the line, and that this qualifies as me having a stake in how good they are. How is this out of context??? You said this!!!



In my humble noob opinion, of this i can agree.



Then you haven't gotten the gist of my meaning. My point has ALWAYS been about nerfing ANYONE, whether it be Superman, Deadshot, Aquaman, etc. Go re-read them again. Black Adam is just a example character that's been tossed in the conversation.
I did say that. But I never said that someone that doesn't play in tournaments doesn't have a stake in how good they are, which is what you implied I said. That's what was taken out of context.

I've already explained while the no nerfs mentality never works and is never done. It's just not feasible.
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
So you acknowledge no fighting game is ever balanced, but you'd like to see I2 get a closer balance like Tekken and KOF? Is that it?

Oh, and what comment did you want me to respond to?
Well absolutely no fighting game is perfectly balanced of course. But every fighter does have balance patches and the dynamic of other fighters don't quite fit this one. This fighter in my personal opinion is very unbalanced. The gap between top and low is absolutely noticeable and in a lot of cases these low tier characters cannot compete whatsoever.
 

Second Saint

A man with too many names.
Would you nerf Ivan Ooze, @Thundergodd ? He was arguably the single most broken character to ever exist, and had literally no reason to lose against any character in his game.

I'd like to address your philosophy of never nerfing, and why it simply isn't feasible in a game like this. You keep bringing up the idea that every other character should recieve significant buffs to the level of the rest of the top tiers. Now, I'm of the opinion that some buffs and nerfs need to happen, but every single change that is made can and often does carry with it unintended consequences that in turn require more rebalancing to address.

Therefore, it is wisest to make as few changes as possible. Nerfing 3-5 problem characters slightly is going to make much fewer waves than significantly buffing ~25.

While true balance is unattainable, it does not devalue the effort or the fruits of striving towards it. Perfection is impossible, but we can go from good enough to actually well balanced overall. Also, the balance we have at this time will only get worse. People once thought vanilla Mk X was pretty balanced, myself included. Hindsight makes that an utterly laughable statement. It certainly can get better.

Also, if you're worried specifically about Black Adam, don't be. They've got some experience nerfing him this time. He ended up a decent mid tier, and I expect the same or less of a fall.


I would definitely gut Aquaman if I had the choice though. The game as a whole would widely benefit. He's far too polarizing. All it would really take is making him punishable on mb trident rush. I say this as a Venomous main in MK X, this chip is cancer. There's utterly no risk, and the slight negative frames, combined with the pushback and his normals often mean it's still his turn.

There's crying for nerfs as you put it, and there's a measured response to what has been proven with evidence to be a negative factor on the game as a whole. The two can actually coincide, but many of the people in this thread fall more into the latter category.
 
@Second Saint I think is on to the right track, but I would argue it slightly differently.

@Thundergodd I would also like to hear you further defend a 'never nerf' policy further. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe all that you've offered on that front so far is that it doesn't feel good to have your main nerfed. I can certainly agree with that sentiment, but from a balance perspective I feel like nerfs are more often your best option for two reasons:
EDIT: (hit tab then enter like a dumby)
A) You create an escalation environment previously described - stuff in the game generally moves toward reducing the number of options the opponent has to deal with things, be it reaction time or plus frames. At its core, this is what buffing a character in a fighter does, leaves opponents with fewer options.
B) Buffing characters homogenizes the cast. Being the character loyalist that you are and following your line of argumentation I feel safe saying that you like Black Adam for the way that he plays as well as the way that he looks (animations and flow included). One of the hallmarks of fighting games is that they allow two players to bring different sets of tools into a round and apply them in the context of one another. If you solve the problem of one character having too many tools by giving the rest of the cast a similar set of tools - eventually you make the selection of a character meaningless. Characters should have incomparable strengths.

League of Legends is a great example of how imperfect balance in a game can still result in a healthy competitive scene. They achieve this by limiting buffs and relying heavily on nerfs. I don't exactly wish their balance cycle on this genre, they knee jerk too often for my tastes, but it seems like a good relevant example to this discussion
 
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EntropicByDesign

It's all so very confusing.
You understand that underlined statement is what life is all about, right? This includes games as well. Possibly the most popular phrase of winners who play games, whether it be video, cards, board games is....

Don't play the game, play the player.

Top players do that, they don't whine about imbalances, I admire that in them.
A lot of top players don't talk about I'm balances because most of them are playing top tier characters.

You keep repeating this Play the Player mantra over and over again, but what happens when the player plays you, and his character is bigger and badder than yours? It's a distinct advantage.

Also Darkseid was absolutely talked about as potential top 5 before Fox put him on display.

Now, I agree with you in principle.. I'd rather the lowbies get buffed than some huge culling of the top tiers.. but fun and dynamic balance, IMO, happens just below the absurd, and we have a few characters that are are absurd. I favor balancing for a powerful cast full of fun, strong, interesting shit, but there is a tipping point where character power leads to a stagnant and boring game that can be more frustrating than fun at times.. I feel like we see that in a few characters right now.

I favor very minimal nerfs to the tops that keep their tools in place and not just viable but powerful, but I DO favor nerfs. For Adam I'd like to see no more + on block dive kicks and less damage. That's about it. Batman shouldn't have infini-pressure and a never ending turn, so adjust his trait some and I'd like to see a small adjustment to his zoning ability.. but that's it. Deadshot, I dunno. Make his OH easily reactable? He's annoying as all fuck to fight but I dunno what else he needs done. Other characters, other very minor things.

I'd like to see everyone brought down or up to somewhere in power just under the current top 5's power level. Just a smidge. I feel like characters like Harley and ALMOST Catwoman occupy an excellent power space for example.