PATCH TIME BOYZ!...2.0

[Mr_Aladdin_Sir]

I did want to weigh in in support of @Second Saint , @Thundergodd . You are absolutely approaching the game with the best mindset. But the point of a balance patch would be to make the game more fair. Assume for a moment that BA or Batman or whoever is actually too strong. Buffing their weaknesses to compensate for nerfing their strengths ( at a 1 to 1 ) still leaves you with a character that is too strong. There are some standouts in this game, I think we agree on that, so assuming that you accept that nerfs are at least a viable option then I think it follows that any character targeted for nerfs should end up worse (slightly) than they started, otherwise, why do it at all?

 

[Second Saint]

Do you really think this?? Really?

Thanks man, for your input on this.

I absolutely believe that, because Black adam's damage is far and away too high. Nerf his damage by 15%, and he'd still have 35-40% bnb's, which is still good damage. Then if you take away his one real weakness and give him more invincibility on lightning cage, he suddenly has a 30-40% launching invincible wakeup, which was fine for I:GAU, but that was a different game. You've really got to respect that and he becomes a character that is solid or great in every aspect. Suddenly the few situations he had trouble in, he does much better, while his everything else is still totally functional.

 

[just_2swift]

Cyborg can 2in1 cancel his special moves into each other example power fist into Target missiles. Thought this would be cool makes him more appealing imo. He also could do this with his trait in igau so it's nothing new to the character.

Cyborg the 3 in 113 is now a special move and now has it's restand back(can be tech rolled into a wake up just like igau). MB will launches for b3 combo.

TA acquired reverted back to overhead.

112 reverted back to a true knockdown and hit advantage restored from igau

Restore the start up on his forward dash OR give him more frame advantage on his cancels similar to igau. His cancels are pointless in this game as apposed to his igau counter part where he was plus 2 at the most.

Sonic disrupter reverted back to plus 2 (-2 in this game)

Add morphing limb to his D2 to improve range and effectiveness (worst D2 in the game)

Can we get some canceling hit confirms? Why doesn't he have cancels that combo? Allow one cancel a combo to prevent infinites.

Bring back his b3 linking after he lands from j2 from grapple hook. Idk why this was removed.

Give power fist a new extension by allowing him to 2in1 cancel it into a MB version of sonic disrupter or bring back old power fist with new input for current power first. By Meter burning power fist just press down for overhead version.

@Wetdoba @Kekoa @Protagonist_1 @pretty flocko @Kinetic Balding1 @PND_Ketchup @DET_BLAKEANATOR @RevetLeafing @Pig Of The Hut @Carl @GGA Max @MILE_HIGH_CLUB

#Makecyborggoodforonce

 

[just_2swift]

How is anyone saying Darkseid was on no ones radar til Sonic? Anyone who plays fighting games and can recognize superior tools knew otherwise.

In a game where projectiles and neutral is king, you don't think people noticed a character with a fast beam, full screen mixups, teleport high/low game and high damage wouldn't be at least decent?

Common sense

 

[Bender]

But the problem here also is that we don't know what NRS thinks is balanced and what is not and whom do they cater to. The vast majority of players are NOT competitive players, so for all we know, they may just cater to the "average" or 'noob" person. Unless you have some inside info you'd like to share with us.

I would assume they pay attention to the top players actions and comments. Oh, I believe you said top players do comment negatively about characters and such. I'd still appreciate some references or a link to their thoughts on the subject.

Anyway, NO GAME is ever balanced, some characters or group will always be above others. That's just the nature of the beast. If people wanna cry nerf on certain characters, well be my guest. They have that right if that's what they choose to do.

Me, I'll play Adam regardless of what happens and enjoy him, whether he gets nerfed or not. I'll keep practicing and have the attitude of the pros and enjoy him for what he is.

I can't remember exactly, but I know Pig of the Hut got bodied in the corner in MKX because his Kenshi didn't have a fast enough poke to escape (I think it was Raiden's) corner pressure and rightfully complained. I wish my memory was a little better, but I know NRS made adjustments to both characters in the next patch.

Several tournament players complained about subzero before the first MKX patch and he got the nerf hammer.

I haven't been around the competitive scene for I2, but pros definitely have their opinions too.

I get it man, my Jax and Cyber Sub zero both got nerfed and it sucks, but it's just the nature of the game. You can either adapt or pick up a new character and those nerfs eventually led me to main buzzsaw and I have no regrets.

Finally, I'm pretty sure NRS makes most of their nerfs based on tournament play, not casuals. Buffs are a bit trickier, since low tier characters don't get shown off what they need at majors, since no one really plays them. That means it's easier to nerf what the top tier definitely has than guess what the bottom tier need - maybe it's not ideal, but it is what it is.

 

[Thundergodd]

It has everything to do with the subject. I play these characters with money on the line. That means that I have a vested interest in their viability. Nowhere did I say that people who don't enter tournaments aren't qualified to speak on the subject or that they also don't have a vested interest in character viability. All of that is you assuming that's what I meant.

There's no assumption on my part because there was NO REASON WHATSOEVER to point out that you're "qualified" simply because you go to tournaments. Did you understand that? There was NO REASON to point out you going to tournaments makes you "qualified". NONE! ZERO!!

Although you did not directly say it, you are inferring that people going to tournaments such as yourself makes you more qualified than people who do not. No one here but you, NO ONE, had to point out that going (or not going) to tournaments "qualifies" them in order to prove their point on this thread. They did that without "showing their "qulifications".

It's amazing this has to be broken down to you.

 

[Thundergodd]

I can't remember exactly, but I know Pig of the Hut got bodied in the corner in MKX because his Kenshi didn't have a fast enough poke to escape (I think it was Raiden's) corner pressure and rightfully complained. I wish my memory was a little better, but I know NRS made adjustments to both characters in the next patch.

Several tournament players complained about subzero before the first MKX patch and he got the nerf hammer.

I haven't been around the competitive scene for I2, but pros definitely have their opinions too.

I get it man, my Jax and Cyber Sub zero both got nerfed and it sucks, but it's just the nature of the game. You can either adapt or pick up a new character and those nerfs eventually led me to main buzzsaw and I have no regrets.

Finally, I'm pretty sure NRS makes most of their nerfs based on tournament play, not casuals. Buffs are a bit trickier, since low tier characters don't get shown off what they need at majors, since no one really plays them. That means it's easier to nerf what the top tier definitely has than guess what the bottom tier need - maybe it's not ideal, but it is what it is.

Awesome insight, brother. Thanks for the perspective, especially the last paragraph.

 

[Thundergodd]

I did want to weigh in in support of @Second Saint , @Thundergodd . You are absolutely approaching the game with the best mindset. But the point of a balance patch would be to make the game more fair. Assume for a moment that BA or Batman or whoever is actually too strong. Buffing their weaknesses to compensate for nerfing their strengths ( at a 1 to 1 ) still leaves you with a character that is too strong. There are some standouts in this game, I think we agree on that, so assuming that you accept that nerfs are at least a viable option then I think it follows that any character targeted for nerfs should end up worse (slightly) than they started, otherwise, why do it at all?

So you also think that buffing their weaknesses to compensate for nerfing their strengths ( at a 1 to 1 ) still leaves with a character that is too strong? As opposed to just being more balanced?

Interesting points, good sir.

 

[_xFriction]

A few months from now after a few patches we can all look back at this and call each other idiots.

Why wait? Fuckin idiot

 

[Thundergodd]

I absolutely believe that, because Black adam's damage is far and away too high. Nerf his damage by 15%, and he'd still have 35-40% bnb's, which is still good damage. Then if you take away his one real weakness and give him more invincibility on lightning cage, he suddenly has a 30-40% launching invincible wakeup, which was fine for I:GAU, but that was a different game. You've really got to respect that and he becomes a character that is solid or great in every aspect. Suddenly the few situations he had trouble in, he does much better, while his everything else is still totally functional.

Fair enough assessment. Let me bring this to the table....

(I am not picking on this character Superman fans, just using him as an example)

You have Superman who doesn't have the weaknesses Adam has: invincible wake-ups, safe strings, etc. BUT has GREAT damage, not far from Adam. For shits and giggles, he does 40%; a good combo can net him 50%+ damage. I've heard fans call him a good all-around character (I agree).

My question is wouldn't fixing up Adam's shortcomings as well as toning down his damage to say, Superman level or so, make him good all-around character in the same vein as Superman?? Honest question.

As always, thank for showing me the subtleties of this game. I'm understanding it more and more.

 

[The chosen puddle]

Why wait? Fuckin idiot

YOU WOT MATE

 

[BigDaddySupes]

Fair enough assessment. Let me bring this to the table....

(I am not picking on this character Superman fans, just using him as an example)

You have Superman who doesn't have the weaknesses Adam has: invincible wake-ups, safe strings, etc. BUT has GREAT damage, not far from Adam. For shits and giggles, he does 40%; a good combo can net him 50%+ damage. I've heard fans call him a good all-around character (I agree).

My question is wouldn't fixing up Adam's shortcomings as well as toning down his damage to say, Superman level or so, make him good all-around character in the same vein as Superman?? Honest question.

As always, thank for showing me the subtleties of this game. I'm understanding it more and more.

He honestly doesn't need too much to be balanced with the rest of the high tiers, just do a slight damage nerf and he'll be fine. As a Supes main, I have to play footsies with the devil to win the matchup, but I'm okay with that if I play well. He was tricky in the first game too, but not impossible. (Oh and I don't have salt if Supes gets nerfed, I just hope they don't over-nerf him. Don't touch him NRS! Pretty please? ...ugly please?)

 

[Thundergodd]

He honestly doesn't need too much to be balanced with the rest of the high tiers, just do a slight damage nerf and he'll be fine. As a Supes main, I have to play footsies with the devil to win the matchup, but I'm okay with that if I play well. He was tricky in the first game too, but not impossible. (Oh and I don't have salt if Supes gets nerfed, I just hope they don't over-nerf him. Don't touch him NRS! Pretty please? ...ugly please?)

Heh. "Ugly please"? Good one.

I'm not a Superman main (though he will be the next character I use) most people seem to like where he is, including me. When I see Superman, my mentality is like "Ahhh $#!+, this ain't gonna be easy". And that's how it's supposed to be, he's Superman! He plays exactly like he should. One should expect big damage from him.

I don't think many people are calling for a nerf of him. He should be safe. I just wish Adam had the safeness Supes has.

 

[BigDaddySupes]

Adam Imo has some really serious pressure on Supes in that MU, enough for me to consider that BA wins that, though it's still roughly 5-5, just slightly leaning in Adam's favor. I feel like I need to constantly watch what I'm doing at all times or I'll get blown up.

 

[Mr_Aladdin_Sir]

Fair enough assessment. Let me bring this to the table....

(I am not picking on this character Superman fans, just using him as an example)

You have Superman who doesn't have the weaknesses Adam has: invincible wake-ups, safe strings, etc. BUT has GREAT damage, not far from Adam. For shits and giggles, he does 40%; a good combo can net him 50%+ damage. I've heard fans call him a good all-around character (I agree).

My question is wouldn't fixing up Adam's shortcomings as well as toning down his damage to say, Superman level or so, make him good all-around character in the same vein as Superman?? Honest question.

As always, thank for showing me the subtleties of this game. I'm understanding it more and more.

To respond here, there certainly exists a build of BA that is similarly well rounded to Superman that is fair. For the sake of variety, however, I think everyone would prefer that the two remain different. From a design perspective you want to maintain reasons to pick one over the other.

I feel like your line of questioning relates to 'how does Superman and BA compare from a balance perspective', BA has several strengths over Superman that set them apart now. Most notably in my mind are plus frames and chip. BA is a monster in those departments as well, even when compared to superman.

I think what may be getting lost in the discussion here is that we all agree BA (and others) are stronger than a good portion of the roster. So how do we go about correcting that is the point. You've read through enough buff/nerf stuff to get where everybody stands, but I feel like you are avoiding the reality that at the end of the day those stand-out characters should end up less good after a balance patch.

 

[Fred Marvel]

All Aquaman needs is b123 to be minus and Superman (if anything) needs his breath to be more -. You don't need to completely butcher all their tools. GL doesn't need anything and if he did he certainly doesn't need all of that.

you clearly have no idea what youre talking about if you think b123 being + is the only reason aquaman is overpowered

 

[RNLDRGN]

Okay, let me ask you a simple question since you are more experienced than I am....

Are there any fighting games with a large roster like this where everyone is relatively balanced? It's an honest question.

According to some here iirc, even after patches, IGAU was still imbalanced.

People will probably disagree with me on how good/fun the game actually is, but most agree SFV is a very balanced game. Probably the most balanced fighter Capcom has made this early in the game's life cycle.

USF4 was also pretty balanced.

 

[Bender]

Heh. "Ugly please"? Good one.

I'm not a Superman main (though he will be the next character I use) most people seem to like where he is, including me. When I see Superman, my mentality is like "Ahhh $#!+, this ain't gonna be easy". And that's how it's supposed to be, he's Superman! He plays exactly like he should. One should expect big damage from him.

I don't think many people are calling for a nerf of him. He should be safe. I just wish Adam had the safeness Supes has.

Just out of curiosity, why don't you think BA is not safe? He has plenty of safe/ plus strings you can hit confirm into combo, safe/ plus mb dive kick launcher and can cancel his unsafe strings into trait to become safe/ plus. He has other safe specials to cancel into as well.

 

[colby4898]

For Cyborg I just want a little more range on some of his normals and strings, he has the ability to make his arm huge but jist never does!

I would increase the verticle range of his d2.
Increase the range on b121. Make his arm bigger on the first 2 hits.
Make his fist bigger on the second hit of 23. A lot of zoning characters have some kind of special moves telling people to fuck out my space. Fate has the push, superman has his punch, deadshot has a knee, blue beetle has his shield charge etc. Giving him a bigger range on his 23 would almost be like his equivalent.

I not saying give him range like robin or scarecrow, just a little more so hes not got fucking trex arms

 

[Ninequads93]

I dropped Shinnok when they gave him braindead buffs please don't do that to my boy Cold:'(

 

[Thundergodd]

To respond here, there certainly exists a build of BA that is similarly well rounded to Superman that is fair. For the sake of variety, however, I think everyone would prefer that the two remain different. From a design perspective you want to maintain reasons to pick one over the other.

I feel like your line of questioning relates to 'how does Superman and BA compare from a balance perspective', BA has several strengths over Superman that set them apart now. Most notably in my mind are plus frames and chip. BA is a monster in those departments as well, even when compared to superman.

I think what may be getting lost in the discussion here is that we all agree BA (and others) are stronger than a good portion of the roster. So how do we go about correcting that is the point. You've read through enough buff/nerf stuff to get where everybody stands, but I feel like you are avoiding the reality that at the end of the day those stand-out characters should end up less good after a balance patch.

I'm not avoiding anything. If a balance patch comes, it is what it is.

As I've mentioned several times, I bought the game because I'm a fan of BA; I've always loved the Captain Marvel mythos. The fact that he turned out to be a powerful character is just icing to me. If he gets nerfed, I'll still play him regardless. I've never strayed from a challenge.

I've never been a nerf kind of guy, but I trust NRS will do whatever's right in their eyes. I think they did a great job with the game and I trust their judgement.

 

[Mr_Aladdin_Sir]

For Cyborg I just want a little more range on some of his normals and strings, he has the ability to make his arm huge but jist never does!

I would increase the verticle range of his d2.
Increase the range on b121. Make his arm bigger on the first 2 hits.
Make his fist bigger on the second hit of 23. A lot of zoning characters have some kind of special moves telling people to fuck out my space. Fate has the push, superman has his punch, deadshot has a knee, blue beetle has his shield charge etc. Giving him a bigger range on his 23 would almost be like his equivalent.

I not saying give him range like robin or scarecrow, just a little more so hes not got fucking trex arms

I'm on the cyborg train and I totally get the t-rex arms are infuriating. I'd rather see him get a hard knock down or a 6f d1 though.

Having a d1 on the slower side seems to be a relic of his older design where he was slightly plus on his cancels. F2,2 is a big part of his neutral and as it stands a good chunk of the cast (those with 6f normals) can trade with his d1 followup.

A hard knock down to prevent people from tech rolling out of TA midscreen would just cement what seems to be the reason to pick him in this game - meterbuild. Because they aren't overhead anymore, I don't see why making people hold TA a little more often would be unfair.

A lot of buff suggestions for 'borg are kind of crazy imo, but I will say that it seems like he got an awful lot taken away from him in order to be able to shoot diagonally w/o meter (something I would argue that is nice to have, but certainly doesn't need)

 

[Mr_Aladdin_Sir]

I'm not avoiding anything. If a balance patch comes, it is what it is.

As I've mentioned several times, I bought the game because I'm a fan of BA; I've always loved the Captain Marvel mythos. The fact that he turned out to be a powerful character is just icing to me. If he gets nerfed, I'll still play him regardless. I've never strayed from a challenge.

I've never been a nerf kind of guy, but I trust NRS will do whatever's right in their eyes. I think they did a great job with the game and I trust their judgement.

That's cool. I can definitely get behind the Shazam mythos (get with the times old man). I dabbled with Billy in the first game.

 

[Thundergodd]

People will probably disagree with me on how good/fun the game actually is, but most agree SFV is a very balanced game. Probably the most balanced fighter Capcom has made this early in the game's life cycle.

USF4 was also pretty balanced.

Really? Cool.

So you think their character roster is pretty close/balanced to each other, that any character can fight another character without being to weak/powerful in comparison?

Also, why do you think some people would disagree with your assessment?

Thanks for chimin' in.

 

[Thundergodd]

That's cool. I can definitely get behind the Shazam mythos (get with the times old man). I dabbled with Billy in the first game.

Let's not get it twisted; I'm not an old man---- I'm an O.G.
I don't care if Marvel has the rights and gave it to some unworthy female. To me, brother Billy will always be----

CAPTAIN MARVEL!

(side note: I will admit, my man Mar-Vell was worthy of the name as well)