Early Top 5 thoughts from Sonic Fox

[BigMacMcLovin]

Hey Everyone!

So while I'm not against the general sentiment of thinking of ways to improve your character, what bothers me is the fact that when I look through these threads, 70% of the posters have no idea what they're talking about yet. I'm seeing incorrect descriptions of characters' strengths, complete lack of understanding of character weaknesses, and lots of talking that suggests people just need to play/lab more.

So for now, if I see anything along these lines, I'm going to close it.

For guys that want to discuss these things, just do it in your individual character forums, where (presumably) people know a little bit more about your characters' toolset. But right now, we need to be engaged in a period of learning, and not telling the developers what to do with the game 2 weeks in.

So I'm suggesting we all just take a deep breath, relax, and dive headlong into understanding and examining the game. Then in a few weeks, we can revisit this stuff and people can compile their suggestions into something more meaningful.

Cool? I love you guys -- hang in there!

Just going to leave this here

 

[Igniz13]

Is there a consensus on bottom 5? See lot of people say ST and GG are bad, who else?

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Is there a consensus on bottom 5? See lot of people say ST and GG are bad, who else?

Brainiac is ass

 

[TheBoyBlunder]

Why is Fred Marvel being entertained?

Because he's the GOAT.

 

[LinnyRoo]

Is there a consensus on bottom 5? See lot of people say ST and GG are bad, who else?

I'd say ST, GG, BB are considerably lacking. Besides that there is definitely other characters that seem below the rest, but I can't really come to a bottom 5

 

[ATP2014]

Thank you. It's about time someone put the blatant hypocrisy of TYM on blast for once. We JUST had a thread discouraging us from making "run-to-the-mill" tier lists, and what does this do? What's the point other than to further demonstrate the elitism that runs on this site. It's by far sickening and needs to stop.

Screw some piece of fake medal. In the end, we're all players and we're all human beings who deserves a chance to get our opinions heard as well.

While I don't agree with the mods' decision to outright shut down all threads related to early tier discussions, you also have to consider that the opinion of a professional player of the caliber of Sonic is going to hold weight.

Sonic's multiple wins has proven that he has a better understanding of NRS games than just about everyone in the community. It's not a case of elitism, it's the simple reality that he probably knows more about this stuff than we do.

That logic applies to the real world too. I can't walk into a surgical operation and tell a doctor how he is wrong because I read a few books and dissected a frog in school.

 

[LinnyRoo]

That logic applies to the real world too. I can't walk into a surgical operation and tell a doctor how he is wrong because I read a few books and dissected a frog in school.

Not trying to start anything, but that's not what logic is. If the doctor in your scenario is actually wrong about something, neither your qualifications or his matter in reference to the specific thing he's wrong about.

I agree that Sonicfox knows his shit, but that doesn't mean he's infallible and can't be biased. It appears that Bane and Ivy are put really high based on his experience at Combo Breaker, when I think other characters have better tools and a better matchup spread.

That said, very few of us are at the level of Sonicfox, so he could just as easily be correct and our qualms don't apply to their level of play. Too early to tell with any kind of certainty imo, but still useful to talk about

 

[ATP2014]

Not trying to start anything, but that's not what logic is. If the doctor in your scenario is actually wrong about something, neither your qualifications or his matter in reference to the specific thing he's wrong about.

Your qualifications do matter. In this scenario, doctors are evaluated by their peers if they have committed malpractice. Or, they are held accountable by laws that have been reviewed by professionals in both the medical and legal field. While anybody can file a law suit, not everybody can reasonably judge if said doctor was wrong in their actions.

At the same time, this top 5/10 is all opinion, so it's impossible to declare this list as factually 'wrong. We can disagree and provide our own reasoning. But as I said before, our opinion holds much less sway than that of players with better resumes that are backed by quantifiable results.

 

[LinnyRoo]

Your qualifications do matter. In this scenario, doctors are evaluated by their peers if they have committed malpractice. Or, they are held accountable by laws that have been reviewed by professionals in both the medical and legal field. While anybody can file a law suit, not everybody can reasonably judge if said doctor was wrong in their actions.

At the same time, this top 5/10 is all opinion, so it's impossible to declare this list as factually 'wrong. We can disagree and provide our own reasoning. But as I said before, our opinion holds much less sway than that of players with better resumes that are backed by quantifiable results.

Lawsuits, laws, malpractice, non of that matters to this discussion. The only claim I'm making is this: A doctor can be objectively wrong about something, and you don't need qualifications equal to or better then his to address it. Lawsuits, malpractice, and the laws are all adjacent logistical things that go along with this in the real world due to practicality, but non of that changes that each individual claim has to be judged on its own merit, and its correspondence to reality.

Applied to sonicfox's tier list, the fact that he's a top player and listed a certain character top 10 cannot be a reason why that character is top 10. The actual reasons behind a character being top ten would be things such as their tools, matchups, placings, etc. None of those have to do with Sonicfox being a top player, or knowing his stuff. Same as a doctor being right about something not because they're a doctor, but because whatever they're saying corresponds to reality.

 

[headcrusher]

You know I think Sonic Fox knows a lot about this game and I would consider what he says factual. The first injustice was out for a while and most of the characters are the same or reworks of old characters. I would say his list is pretty spot on.

 

[LinnyRoo]

You know I think Sonic Fox knows a lot about this game and I would consider what he says factual. The first injustice was out for a while and most of the characters are the same or reworks of old characters. I would say his list is pretty spot on.

But you understand that even if you consider it factual, the reason why it would apparently be factual isn't because Sonicfox said it, right?

It's factual because, in the simplest sense, it corresponds to reality. And whatever Sonicfox says, or whatever his opinion is, doesn't interfere with or have anything to do with the process of a claim being factual if it matches up with what's actually in the game.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Lawsuits, laws, malpractice, non of that matters to this discussion. The only claim I'm making is this: A doctor can be objectively wrong about something, and you don't need qualifications equal to or better then his to address it. Lawsuits, malpractice, and the laws are all adjacent logistical things that go along with this in the real world due to practicality, but non of that changes that each individual claim has to be judged on its own merit, and its correspondence to reality.

Applied to sonicfox's tier list, the fact that he's a top player and listed a certain character top 10 cannot be a reason why that character is top 10. The actual reasons behind a character being top ten would be things such as their tools, matchups, placings, etc. None of those have to do with Sonicfox being a top player, or knowing his stuff. Same as a doctor being right about something not because they're a doctor, but because whatever they're saying corresponds to reality.

Your assuming that a tier list can be factual. It can't, it's subjective.

Your also trying to assume that Ethos plays no part in discussions of tier lists and character viability. That's just not realistic. If Justin Wong posted a Marvel tier list it would at face value be taken more seriously than a tier list than some random player. Same with Daigo in SF, same with one of the Gods in smash etc.

All that being said, people have been judging this tier list based on its merit. People are either agreeing with it, challenging it, or asking for clarification. So I don't really see the point of this argument.

 

[Juggs]

I'll probably make an "official" tier list discussion thread soon. So threads like this will just merge with it.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Disagree with Atrocitus being top 5 ... People are starting to deal with his f223 gimmicks

Who are these people

And in what sense is a pure guessing game a gimmick

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Thank you. It's about time someone put the blatant hypocrisy of TYM on blast for once. We JUST had a thread discouraging us from making "run-to-the-mill" tier lists, and what does this do? What's the point other than to further demonstrate the elitism that runs on this site. It's by far sickening and needs to stop.

Screw some piece of fake medal. In the end, we're all players and we're all human beings who deserves a chance to get our opinions heard as well.

Btw if you'd read that thread, you'd see that I said that once we were 3-4 weeks in (which we now are) it was fair game. But you didn't read the thread, and yet are still trying to use it to push an agenda here.

So it's mainly your non-reading that's on blast here

 

[TheDylbot]

Who are these people

And in what sense is a pure guessing game a gimmick

It's not a case of pointing anyone out, its more a case of people are becoming aware that f22 db1 can be entirely low blocked, and over in the atrocitus threads wazminator has shown how to block the rest of the guessing game.

Gimmick was probably the wrong word though, it's a solid mix up. But it's his only mix up, 112 hits low but everyone knows it's coming (still fun to throw it out sometimes though), b23 is entirely low blockable. I'm happy to admit he becomes a major threat when dexx is out, or if he has you jammed in the corner, but there are still ways around both if those scenarios.

Not trying to downplay him, I get alot of wins with him and I'm sure he is top 10, I just struggle with putting him top 5 in front of batman and superman

 

[alkipot]

Soooo, anyone gonna talk about Harley? I feel she's in the lower end of a top 10 character, or juuuust outside of the top 10.

I'm definitely picking her up to have a better chance against Cheetahs numerous bad matchups.

 

[TheDylbot]

Soooo, anyone gonna talk about Harley? I feel she's in the lower end of a top 10 character.

I'm definitely picking her up to have a better chance against Cheetahs numerous bad matchups.

Played a couple games with a great harley the other night, she is a great character when played well.. and she seems to be a low key zoning god tbh but time will tell

 

[chores]

Played a couple games with a great harley the other night, she is a great character when played well.. and she seems to be a low key zoning god tbh but time will tell

put two characters fullscreen and have one of them dash forward. i think from that range she might be the best zoner in the game

 

[Stilll Alive]

I mean.... Batman can activate ability before the bar building back to 3 bats just to get 1 bat. That being said let's be honest he has ability the entire game. That's not top 5 material?? Maybe not iono lololol

 

[alkipot]

Just started using Harley today, and was taking games off a Superman/Batman player with far more ease than my main Cheetah ever could. Amazing mid screen METERLESS damage, and her gunshots don't seem to be made for damage, but to be super annoying and force movement from your opponent.

Will absolute give Harley more practice, but man she seems pretty awesome.

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

Just started using Harley today, and was taking games off a Superman/Batman player with far more ease than my main Cheetah ever could. Amazing mid screen METERLESS damage, and her gunshots don't seem to be made for damage, but to be super annoying and force movement from your opponent.

Will absolute give Harley more practice, but man she seems pretty awesome.

She is actually the best complement to Cheetah I could find.
Gunshots are meant to check your oponent's movement and they are very plus on hit so you can use that advantage to do a lot of stuff, her trait is veeery good, she has an easier time setting it up against some characters than others but it's definitely helpful in every single MU, just in different ways. Cupcakes are so good and her neutral game is where she really shines IMO.
I think people will get better at the MU and start doing stuff like MB roll trough cupcakes tho but she will be very good even then.

 

[Skylight1]

Btw if you'd read that thread, you'd see that I said that once we were 3-4 weeks in (which we now are) it was fair game. But you didn't read the thread, and yet are still trying to use it to push an agenda here.

So it's mainly your non-reading that's on blast here

Don't matter how long it takes for a list to be considered "legit" by your scrupulous requirements, it's still too early for a tier list regardless of it being by you or sonicfox. Let the game go for a year THEN come up with a tier list.

 

[Juggs]

Don't matter how long it takes for a list to be considered "legit" by your scrupulous requirements, it's still too early for a tier list regardless of it being by you or sonicfox. Let the game go for a year THEN come up with a tier list.

How about a tier discussion? Would you have a problem with that?

 

[TheDylbot]

Don't matter how long it takes for a list to be considered "legit" by your scrupulous requirements, it's still too early for a tier list regardless of it being by you or sonicfox. Let the game go for a year THEN come up with a tier list.

I see your point, but I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that it's not too early for a broad grouping now. The game has been out for long enough that we are seeing kits that surpass others - and while that is subject to change within the next, say 3-6 months, it doesn't change the kits that we're seeing right now.
There's a reason we are seeing so many black adam's, batman's, and deadshot's for example. A legit, finalised tier list is a looong way away, but a general grouping isn't that hard to imagine currently tbh