Discussion Final MKXL Tier List (post yours!)

[ismael4790]

About my chars:

Fisticuffs and A-List Cage are placed in the same tier here. I think A-List is still best variation, but maybe not better enough to justify him being one tier higher, so it might be ok. Will never understand why they decided to leave these two variations without a mid armor, anyway.
Stunt double is worst no doubt.

Being probably one of the guys with the most Balanced Kenshi experience at the moment, since I have been fully dedicated to this variation for a long time, where others dropped it or simply didn't touch him with a 10ft pole. Making it work vs good players and working all matchups, with no on paper theorisations my opinion is that Dankster placement for Balanced is correct.
Last changes helped Balanced enough to be in that tier, but not enough to be higher. They weren't great changes overall or the changes he actually needed and they removed part of his identity, but hey, could have been worse.

Kenjutsu is a deliciously fun to play garbage variation, correct placement imo. Possessed placement is ok too, best variation no doubt and best example of collateral buffs due to general changes in October patch.

 

[Wigy]

Dude i hate when people do shit like this. Acting like they know everything in the game ever without any explanation. Instead of acting like a cocky elder god how about you explain some things and this tech that only you know

totally agree.

Just condescending and arrogant with absolutely no explanation

 

[Youphemism]

@Youphemism Do you think DB is better than Bart now? I haven't played Bart in a while but I was under the impression that it still covered the most MUs.

Dragon Breath has always been better than Bartitsu, at least in my opinion.

@Youphemism finally someone with some logic in here realising Spectral's potential

When you play against the variation almost every week and you lab a lot you figure out some stuff lol

I think Imposter is the best in the game, especially if you supplement a couple match ups with Boneshaper. His setplay is so strong in this version. You basically have a 2 way mix up that does 16% and leaves you neutral or slightly plus if you're wrong, along with his low and overhead. His throw says it's 0 on hit but it's really plus enough to guarantee a run up f4.

Even without a good move, the damage buff will give you good risk/reward off of f4 or b3. F4 into amulet is so good with the upgraded amulet. Shinnok's D1, D4, and button into special mind games are crazy. His D2 is one of the best anti airs in the game and his jump 1 is up there for best in the game. 6 frames and it's very hard to low profile. His jump 3 is a typical MKX jump 3. Shoulder is an absurd neutral tool now. He low profiles and doesn't get low profiled. His 7 frame low gives him some of the best counterpoking in the game. They have to respect it like it's a poke, opening up b3 counterpokes.

I don't see an argument for him not being among the best in the game, even if you don't consider him #1.

There's a lot I don't agree with. Imposter not being top tier and Balanced/Mournful being so low are the biggest things tho.

Edit: Balanced is A+ imo and Mournful is definitely at least A.

Keep in mind a variation isn't top tier solely on tools, a lot of variations have a really solid set of tools. When it comes down to it it's matchups/matchup charts that matter.

 

[xKhaoTik]

I still think Ermac is the best in the game lol

 

[Tweedy]

Dragon Breath has always been better than Bartitsu, at least in my opinion.

When you play against the variation almost every week and you lab a lot you figure out some stuff lol

Keep in mind a variation isn't top tier solely on tools, a lot of variations have a really solid set of tools. When it comes down to it it's matchups/matchup charts that matter.

I don't think Imposter has more than 2-3 losing match ups. Imo Jason is 5-5 even though he steals a near-useless move.

He might lose to HQT, Sektor, D'vorah? Idk if even those are correct outside of HQT. His setplay is good enough without a good move to do work.

 

[dubson]

Day 1 lasher main,

I think he is very good in this version of the game but I can't see him in the highest possible tier, especially amongst some of the variations in there.

I also see too many variations that you have below him that I feel are definitely better than him. To name a couple, I definitely can't see him being above Possessed Kenshi and Hollywood Cassie.

 

[Basic Stupidity]

Day 1 lasher main,

I think he is very good in this version of the game but I can't see him in the highest possible tier, especially amongst some of the variations in there.

I also see too many characters you have below him that I feel are definitely better than him. To name a couple, I definitely can't see him being above Possessed Kenshi and Hollywood Cassie.

I've played him for a bit and there is no way he is S tier. Hollywood and possessed are definitely better the evidence is all around us. He has some obvious problems but that's not to say he is bad, prolly A - A+, but it's pretty ridiculous to put him up there with there with those other characters

 

[John Grizzly]

Lasher Takeda in S tier? I'm legit curious to know the reason why. I'm sorry if it was already answered in this thread but I can't read through it right now. Lasher was my original main before I switched to War God, so I'm extra interested in what makes Lasher not only better than Shirai Ryu and Ronin, but good enough for someone to put it in S tier.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

You guys are probably right about Lasher, bear with me for a second, I'm gonna do a larger edit tonight when I get the chance. I'm still thinking some stuff over and considereing what you guys have been saying to hopefully take care of everything at once.

 

[Basic Stupidity]

Lasher Takeda in S tier? I'm legit curious to know the reason why. I'm sorry if it was already answered in this thread but I can't read through it right now. Lasher was my original main before I switched to War God, so I'm extra interested in what makes Lasher not only better than Shirai Ryu and Ronin, but good enough for someone to put it in S tier.

Beats me. His jump in is pretty ridiculous but inconsistent and doesn't guarantee anything. He has one good safe mix up after a long recovering 25 frame overhead but it's really hard to get because you can't use it on meaty or jump in unless they respect the foward diagonal 1 which leads to max about 30% for one bar. the rest of his mixups are easily fuzzyable and don't lead to good damage anyways. Hard to imagine that Hollywood is worse.

 

[Eddy Wang]

i think i remember such a project from mk9 times but i dunno how that turned out.

Into a blood fucking mess.
We from the Skarlet community were accused of upplaying our character because we didn't feel she did really bad outside of Cyrax.
The entire community got brainwashed into the 6-4 Kabal.

I'm going to post a response for a very respectable player today, but i won't say who he is:

"hey Eddy since MK9 is coming to an end I just thought I'd share my last thoughts on the character.

First I just want to say she is the most interesting mortal kombat character and i love her design. I am thankful for how great our community was and how much we broke down the character.

I am going to say that I am a fraud Skarlet player. I have the worst placings with her at major tournaments."


The conversation goes on and on, and then he says this:

"Next, I just want to say that I think M2Dave brainwashed many people into thinking Skarlet wasn't a good character. I believed him when he said that Skarlet's overhead was reactable. But now I think you and Scar were right. Red Dash -> Down Slash is not reactable. Also the fact that she can delay her overhead and low makes it harder to react to (i learned this from Slips). Scar played her the best because he uses all of her options and it makes it really hard for your opponent to react to and block everything.

My final thoughts - Skarlet is a very good character, but didn't have much representation in tournament so we'll never know how good she actually is. I personally think she is around #10 spot on the tier list, but she can very well be 6, 7, 8 or even top 5...who knows."

Today he is one of the greatest players this community ever came to meet or know.

never forget TYM "block low, react to the overhead" Yeah... right... ... -_-

 

[Eldriken]

Man, how Kotal has fallen.

That's what a few changes can do to a character. Not saying he's the only one affected this much by the changes, but he went from being really good to pretty mediocre according to a lot of folks.

Oh, well. Y'all are still gonna get on your knees. =P

 

[Error]

Not saying he is bad but comparing him to Mystic is dumb.

There's much more to Ermac than ex push, and Spectral has access those things + some.

 

[Skedar70]

There have been a lot of tier list threads throughout the games life, but now that the game is pretty well balanced, and Mortal Kombat is gonna be ggs for 95% of everyone when Injustice 2 comes out, Id like to know what EVERYONE thinks about the game's balance one last time.

No particular order in a tier, its alphabetical, so I'm not saying Alien is the best character in his group, or that Triborg is worst in his.

Key:
S: The strongest variations in the game, with powerful strengths, and small weaknesses. Viable as a solo main.

A+: Similar in capabilities to the S variations, but they are more flawed, meaning that they have more exploiatable weaknesses, or less powerful strengths. Theoretically viable as a solo main.

A: Strong characters, but either lack the cheese of high tiers, or aren't as well rounded. May require a second variation to cover weak spots.

B+: Characters with good tools, but they have relevant and easily exploitable weaknesses. These are probably the more "fair" variations on the game. Will require another variation to help.

B: These aren't "bad" characters, but there isn't any merit or reward to choosing a character in here. Variations in this group aren't worth using as a main.

C: Irrelevant variations that put their mains on suicide watch


S: Ermac(Mystic), Jacqui Briggs(Full Auto), Jason Voorhees(Unstoppable), Kitana(Royal Storm), Liu Kang(Dragon's Fire), Mileena(Ethereal), Mileena(Piercing), Quan Chi(Sorcerer), Shinnok(Boneshaper), Shinnok(Imposter), Takeda(Lasher), Tremor(Crystalline), Triborg(Sektor), Triborg(Smoke)

A+: Cassie Cage(Hollywood), Ermac(Spectral), Jason Voorhees(Relentless), Kitana(Assassin), Kenshi(Possessed), Liu Kang(Flame Fist), Mileena(Ravenous), Quan Chi(Summoner), Predator(Hish-Qu-Ten), Raiden(Displacer), Reptile(Deceptive), Reptile(Noxious), Reptile(Nimble), Scorpion(Hellfire), Sonya Blade(Demolition), Sub-Zero(Grandmaster), Takeda(Shirai Ryu), Tanya(Pyromancer), Tremor(Aftershock)

A: Alien(Acidic), Alien(Konjurer), Bo' Rai Cho(Dragon's Breath), Cassie Cage(Brawler), D'Vorah(Swarm Queen), Ermac(Master of Souls), Ferra/Torr(Ruthless), Goro(Dragon Fangs), Goro(Tigrar Fury), Jacqui Briggs(Shotgun) Kano(Cutthroat), Kano(Cybernetic), Kano(Commando), Kitana(Mournful), Kung Jin(Shaolin), Kung Lao(Tempest), Liu Kang(Dualist), Raiden(Thunder God), Scorpion(Ninjutsu), Shinnok(Necromancer), Sonya Blade(Covert Ops), Sonya Blade(Special Forces), Sub-Zero(Unbreakable), Takeda(Ronin), Tremor(Metallic), Tanya(Dragon Naginata)

B+: Bo' Rai Cho(Bartitsu), Cassie Cage(Spec Ops), D'Vorah(Venomous), D'Vorah(Brood Mother), Erron Black(Gunslinger), Ferra/Torr(Vicious), Goro(Kuatan Warrior), Jason Voorhees(Slasher), Jax(Wrestler), Johnny Cage(A-List), Johnny Cage(Fisticuffs), Kenshi(Balanced), Kotal Kahn(Sun God), Kung Jin(Bojutsu), Kung Lao(Buzzsaw), Leatherface(Killer), Leatherface(Butcher), Quan Chi(Warlock), Sub-Zero(Cryomancer), Tanya(Kobu Jutsu), Triborg(Cyrax), Triborg(Cyber Sub-Zero)

B: Alien(Tarkatan), Erron Black(Marksman), Jax(Heavy Weapons), Jax(Pumped Up), Johnny Cage(Stunt Double), Kenshi(Kenjutsu), Kotal Kahn(War God), Kung Jin(Ancestral), Kung Lao(Hat Trick), Leatherface(Pretty Lady), Predator(Hunter), Predator(Warrior), Raiden(Master of Storms), Scorpion(Inferno)

C: Bo' Rai Cho(Drunken Master), Erron Black(Outlaw), Ferra/Torr(Lackey), Jacqui Briggs(High Tech), Kotal Kahn(Blood God)

Changes:
-Quan Chi(Summoner) moved to A+(down from S)
-Reptile(Deceptive) moved to A+(up from A)
-Reptie(Noxious) moved to A+(up from A)
-Shinnok(Imposter) moved to S(up from A+)
-Tremor(Metallic) moved to A(up from B+)
-Kitana(Mournful) moved to A(up from B+)
-Sonya Blade(Demolition) moved to A+(down from S)
-Sonya Blade(Special Forces) moved to A(down from A+)

I think you should merge tiers A+ to B into a single tier A. Move Jacqui High Tech from C to the new A, Move Predator (Warrior) to the last tier which would be B. Move anyone in S besides Mileena to the new A and leave Mileena alone in the S tier. You can also try to add a few more characters like master of storms raiden or some of the jacks variations to the lowest tier but I am not 100% sure of that since I don't play those characters.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I think you should merge tiers A+ to B into a single tier A. Move Jacqui High Tech from C to the new A, Move Predator (Warrior) to the last tier which would be B. Move anyone in S besides Mileena to the new A and leave Mileena alone in the S tier. You can also try to add a few more characters like master of storms raiden or some of the jacks variations to the lowest tier but I am not 100% sure of that since I don't play those characters.

I agree that the game is pretty balanced but that would put characters like Grandmaster Sub in the same tier as Marksman Erron Black

 

[Marinjuana]

The long and short of it is, you need to capitalise HEAVILY on every chance you get because bo stuggles in the neutral so bad. Theres no reliable way to get his drink out and start your game aside from grab ex drink in the corner. Theres no way to cash out, so once you've commited to the drink if anything goes wrong you're guna get killed for it, be that a combo into restand or puking during a blockstring.

When he is drunk he is a monster, his moves are really good, but he cannot get in a position to capitalise and after he does you're extremely vulnerable.

Hes just a character of gimmicks, once you learn the matchup, hes horrible.

What are his winning matchups?

I mean I think it matters what the matchup is. I agree with the first sentence 100% when I'm playing against a character like Mileena, Shinnok or Takeda. But it's usually not that horrendous, and if there's one character that can capitalize on this stuff it's Bo, he's the ultimate one touch hero of MKX.

On getting the drink out in corner, it can be challenging at times but you have EX fart and a few launchers to mix up with(dat f3 cancel). There's also some knockdowns you could use, like maybe you land a aerial monkey flips from midscreen or a f1 corner combo. Also idk if you meant to put EX there but you can cancel throw into drink without meter. I'll also tend to favor drinking on bump and dump if I hit it out of the corner although that oki can be suspect.

I find it hard to decide MU numbers for Bo in general because he's such a polarizing character, he could get bopped in the mid screen and yet absolutely rape in the corner(which he always can do but ppl with only 1 hit of armor or worse get wrecked), it's hard to decide which is more extreme in many cases. Overall I'd imagine DM chart from me to be very similar to a DB chart, but with less upside. If DB does very well in a MU, DM should do well too, just not as well because the corner game and reliable pressure isn't as good. If DB loses a MU because he get's zoned out, DM may do better depending on the type of zoning.

I think his MU chart would be relatively similar to a DB chart, just with less upside. I think he beats Erron Black, Kotal and maybe D'vorah(though I think the other Bo variations beat these three too, also maybe even with SQ.), then it's probably just variations here and there. I think he beats most of the other low tier, like everybody in Dankster's tier list in B and C except for Pumped Up which I think he loses, and maybe even with a couple others. There's a solid amount of MU's you could argue 5-5 for IMO, but of course like the other variations he gets wrecked by certain characters like Takeda and Mileena and seems to lose against several others depending on variation.

Some stand out matchups that I think DM is worth checking out for(These could be bad or even MUs, just think he might have merit over the other variations.):

Cassie: I find non-Hollywood to not be a major issue for Bo. For Hollywood, sexy stance helps counter gun shots and for whatever reason B4 can cause EX nutpunch to whiff(not too hard to time either), which DM can then full combo with crazy leg low launcher. So besides making a swaggy read you can do fart setups with b4 oki that shutdown her wakeup options. Probably still loses but he has some upside.

Slasher Jason: Mostly by merit of making his projectile not as good with sexy stance. There's also some virtue to the low profiling against all variations, unfortunately all Jason's variations have at least one wakeup that will hit against it with Psycho Slash and Tight Squeeze. Xray will whiff though.

Cybernetic Kano: Still rough but the stance definitely helps to minimize Kano's zoning and his meter gain from his zoning.

Full-Auto Jacqui: Since full auto's gun lasts a good bit, the roll can get you some good forward movement, still a bad MU.

I don't have any experience with the other two in the matchup but I could also see DM's tools working well to help in the Reptile matchup with Bo having to respect his zoning.

On a list I'd make I'd imagine seeing him in the 20-30 best variation range, obviously not too hot, but I think he has more to bring to the table then a bunch of variations. Ultimately it's a matter of getting the opponent to the corner with a decent amount of meter, which I think he do so well enough against a solid portion of the cast.

 

[xKhaoTik]

I think you should merge tiers A+ to B into a single tier A. Move Jacqui High Tech from C to the new A, Move Predator (Warrior) to the last tier which would be B. Move anyone in S besides Mileena to the new A and leave Mileena alone in the S tier. You can also try to add a few more characters like master of storms raiden or some of the jacks variations to the lowest tier but I am not 100% sure of that since I don't play those characters.

Mileena is not in a tier of her own lol

She's top 3 but she DEFINITELY shares a spot with Ermac. Keep her in S along with Ermac

 

[Marinjuana]

This is all theory, in practice doesn't function

Unique mobility? Lol Bo's Mobility without drinking is just pure shit, he can't access the stance until he drinks.
Bo doesn't have safe specials at all, "almost" is not safe on block.
The tools he gains access with drinking that are usefull are only zen and the fullscreen armored move and that's it, all other things are just pure shit, since it doesn't add anything to the mix.

The way NRS designed him makes his drinking pure situational, so he is forced to play variationless almost the entire round, because if you drink early on or later on, you will have to continue to drink until you win or the round ends, which with the current tools its bad because he doesn't have many ways to drink while using certain moves, and the cooldown cuts punishes as well when it times out.

This variation could have a simple fix,
a) instead of having 10 secs only, every time he drink it should add to the existing timing, this would make him more bearable, and a bit more forgiving.

b) If the cooldown ends he shouldn't puke until he returns to neutral stance, so he could at least use a move that helps him transition into drinking without triggering the cooldown if he gets a window for a reward or puke after a punish.

c) When he reaches lvl 1 drinking, he can't drink after b3, 1+3 and f3, 1+2, he should on lvl2 and lvl3 too, as well as he should be able to drink while in meditate stance, this would give him access to ways to keep the timing alive when he doesn't have the momentum


But instead, he pukes after 10 seconds, with not good tools to maintain his momentum, which he can lose very easily, his mobility game is overrated, his ex zen has invincibility frames indeed but situations to use that practically are somewhat hard since you will be focusing more on the next refill instead of actually playing.

Everything I described works in practice.

B4+down to get into sexy stance dude...

Almost safe is better then punishable. -8 is better then -11, -11 with jump range pushback is better then -11 upclose. And DB/DM Bo has Drunken Fist, which is -7 with pushback and can only be punished normally by Reptile's EX slide, so essentially Bo does have a safe special in most matchups.

His other specials let him do far less riskier mixups that have good knockdowns and grant him drink cancels. DB1 is probably the highest chip damaging special in the game. DF1 is an excellent mid that can anti air, isn't easily punished and jails from pokes. Both work as armored moves.

 

[Skedar70]

Mileena is not in a tier of her own lol

She's top 3 but she DEFINITELY shares a spot with Ermac. Keep her in S along with Ermac

I don't know man. I understand Ermac is good but he can be AA while Mileena cannot. Plus her low profiling. That alone makes me think she is broken tier. No other character has it that way.

 

[xKhaoTik]

I don't know man. I understand Ermac is good but he can be AA while Mileena cannot. Plus her low profiling. That alone makes me think she is broken tier. No other character has it that way.

...

Everyone in the game can be AA'd lol. Mileena has a really good jump in but she isn't invincible.

 

[ASaltySloth]

Idk man towards the end of the game's life cycle I would clean house with high tech Jacqui.... maybe that's because the only players left were garbage though.

 

[Wigy]

snip

One thing i noticed, all your drink options are after you've already hit the person, he has no way of getting in and opening up with any kind of safety without drink.

Ex drink is plus after grab, regular Isn't thats why i mentioned it.

Most of the plus things you mentioned are small gimmicks.

Dragonbreath has legit staggers with db1 and can make them scared to counterpoke.

he has safety, he has the highest damage, a meterless, safe launcher and the flame carpet which is insanely good. Bo has so many ways to get that out.

All this over drunken master, and DB bo is also pretty crappy.

 

[M2Dave]

@Eddy Wang , nobody placed well with Skarlet in Mortal Kombat 9. The character was ignorantly overrated by the Skarlet community.

 

[Mista_Snacks]

Spec Ops Cassie is A tier, She can't be B+ tier if she has the same base tools as the other 2, she has a couple more losing match ups with out instant air guns but the same can be said for brawler. hell variationless cassie is A tier

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Spec Ops Cassie is A tier, She can't be B+ tier if she has the same base tools as the other 2, she has a couple more losing match ups with out instant air guns but the same can be said for brawler. hell variationless cassie is A tier

Iv been thinking about it, I don't think she's as good as Brawler though. But she might be A, I'm still open to suggestions and making edits. It's hard to do this with 100 variations lol