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Discussion MKXL Character Learning Curve Rating System

SaSSolino

Soul Stealing Loyalist
I definitely agree as I use them as well that with Ermac, KJ.

Ermac's Spectral is the hardest for his variations and KJ's Ancestral also the hardest for his variations.

Triborg I'd say Sektor is the second hardest/normal to use after C.Sub, while Cyrax and Smoke are easier. Since those are the characters I use in this particular MK.
how is cryrax easier than sektor?
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
On this post i will explain why some of the variations i mentioned are easy, normal, hard or very hard.

I will start with Ninjutsu Scorpion
Having easy combos, easy damage, and restand to prevent wakeups, makes Ninjutsu very easy to begin with, specially when the character has priority normals preventing trades and covering lots of space.

However at the highest level when you face people that have a good defense, is where Ninjutsu needs to excel and poke people out, walk in and out and react to recovery frames as fast as he can to punish those little openings, the characters balances his ranges and priority normals from being punishable at them on block.
Ninjutsu falls on the principle that when one players has no openings due constant defense, the only time you will breach that guard is when they let their own guard down in order to attack, that's your window, in order to do that, imaculated spacing and precise reads are required.

Hat Trick Kung Lao
Having slow walkspeeds, negative pokes and strings, lots of highs, makes really dificult to play footsies, so he has to take lots of risks like being at minus most of the time if that is your style of play with hat traps pressure or dive kicks, not an easy character to pick from the get go, requires very good reactions, very good reads, and very good anticipations mostly.

His execution isn't cheap either, specially now, that in order to play at the highest level and eradicate the meter dependence to do serious damage, avoid breaks, and get more loopable pressure and setups, you need to learn his high execution level meterless combos that goes from 30 to 32 out of a 8f punishment and 35% to 40% meterless in the corner with the right punishes

Hat Trick falls on the category that in order to excel at anything else with the character, you need to learn fundamentals, piece of advice before choosing the variation? Pick Scorpion. :)

Drunken Master Bo' Rai Cho
This character is far more complicated than hat trick, while there isn't much to worry about his stamina, he has to manage not only his meter, but he needs to manage the drunk timing, having only two options of keeping the drunkeness going forces the character to either drop damage to drink or jump to escape the time out. This is primary over everything else, including execution which isn't that hard at all, but isn't that easy either moderate would be the right term here

He gets stronger as he drinks since he gets more tools to use such has the torpedo and the meditate which are very powerfull on the right hands, the biggest problem is how to maintain the drunk state.
Since Bo' is a very complex character, is advisable to learn how to play without being drunk first, then once you get REALLY familiar with his tools, its time to start drinking, however there is a new challenge, you need to learn how to count to 10 with each drink taking your focus off the matches sometimes.

Dragon Naginata Tanya

While the character doesn't have anything too revealing and such, it has a very simple concept of play, you dictate the match with your ranges, walkspeed and good strings, great footsie tools, good anti-airs, being mobility the strongest point of the variation, everytime an window oportunity appears DN Tanya needs to make it count.
With that in mind, bear that in order to land her best combos, her execution out of pogo hits are extremely thigh, but are a necessary evil since it allows her to reach full potential off her best damage.

Tanya also in this variation can soft the recovery frames of teleport by landing into the pogo stance, which opens opportunities for a new world in the air to explore as long as the pogo player knows what he is doing without opening itself too much.


wanna do dualist but he is just too hard, don't even know where to start, he is probably the hardest variation to use in full during a match right now, along with high tech jacqui.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
how is cryrax easier than sektor?
Maybe it depends on what we're talking about but as far as combo damage, set ups and free hits like bomb juggles and nets yeah Cyrax is easier. Sektor does NOT have this, he's a zoner with a decent up close game with no moves that give you free hits ie a net, freeze, spear etc, etc. Besides they had to nerf Cyrax a few times from what I remember. Sektor people just griped about his rising missiles giving free hits on stun at first but that shit got patched fast so....if he still had that maybe I'd agree with you but he doesn't so yeah, still going with Cyrax being easier. Keep in mind I'm talking easier to use not easier to beat.
 

Kroaken

Life is a block string with no gaps.
I'm just coming back to mkx with the pc and the 10/4 patch, but I'll try to add what I can.

Cyrax: medium in regards to picking him up, learning bnbs. Most difficult part isn't the execution, but being creative on the spot. Aka converting off of odd scenarios and attempting to optimize. However he is hard/very hard at a higher level. Neutral is extremely challenging.

Also, attempted to learn raiden the other day. Is it just me, or does he have one of the most difficult optimized midscreen bnbs? I've never tried to learn a character and felt unable to play them before. You master of storms/displacer mains are heroes and deserve respect.
 

SaSSolino

Soul Stealing Loyalist
Maybe it depends on what we're talking about but as far as combo damage, set ups and free hits like bomb juggles and nets yeah Cyrax is easier. Sektor does NOT have this, he's a zoner with a decent up close game with no moves that give you free hits ie a net, freeze, spear etc, etc. Besides they had to nerf Cyrax a few times from what I remember. Sektor people just griped about his rising missiles giving free hits on stun at first but that shit got patched fast so....if he still had that maybe I'd agree with you but he doesn't so yeah, still going with Cyrax being easier. Keep in mind I'm talking easier to use not easier to beat.
Dude sektor has a free hits move, it's his teleport. besides concectually sektor is pretty easy, even helped by 50/50s, witch are very easy to use (just like his zoning).

Cyrax on the other hand requires incredibly high execution and ability to convert in various ways.

I don't think that sektor is harder than smoke.
 
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I think I should update everyone since it's been a day or two. Just FYI (to whoever cares) I haven't abandoned this thread (yet) and I am still working on it. I should have an updated version up sometime later in the afternoon or by tonight. Hopefully with more detailed explanations and so on and so forth. Basically it looks like a PoS right now and I'm going to do my best to fix that. I'm going off to work now. I'll start working on this when I get back.
 

EMPEROR PRYCE

WAR SEASON "THE WEAK EXPOSED!"
I have to agree w Cyrax being harder than sektor by a veeeery wide margin. sektor has a simple gameplan followed by simple execution.

Cyrax game plan is the same as anyone else's (mix) but with a plethora of executional curves that would drive most players away.

Actually, I'd agree w cyrax having the highest learning curve period
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
I feel like all the chars I use are potatoe level.

Sub - GM
Predator - hunter
Jason - relentless
Triborg - smoke

I've never been good with chars that require run cancels or stagger heavy. So in my opinion those type of chars are more difficult to learn and play well with.
I don't think any of those are potato. Jason and Sub are borderline but still not as potato as it gets.
 

DanableLector

UPR DanableLector
Tremor: Looking at this from a brand new players perspective Tremor is very hard. He requires run cancels, dash cancels, instant airs, manipulation of rock punch, and Shatter directions (upward, mid, and downward) , manipulation of rock drop (close, mid, far) he also can require ridiculous match up knowledge.

After shock- very hard. Depends on instant air quake (up, down, down, 1), Shatter cancels, and flash parry to be used at the highest level.

Metallic- Hard/very hard. Depends on knowing the ins and outs of two different stance types (skins). Lava roller combos are difficult, Shatter cancels, and flash parry.

Crystalline- Hard/very hard. The easiest of the 3 execution wise, but requires the most match up knowledge. Depends upon flash parry, Shatter cancels, flex/Crystalization and knowing how to use it to punish your opponent'.
https://testyourmight.com/threads/crystalline-tremor-tech-vs-the-whole-cast.57441/
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Dude sektor has a free hits move, it's his teleport. besides concectually sektor is pretty easy, even helped by 50/50s, witch are very easy to use (just like his zoning).

Cyrax on the other hand requires incredibly high execution and ability to convert in various ways.

I don't think that sektor is harder than smoke.
Smoke is a gimmicky character, he's not the easiest but not the hardest either. C Sub is harder to use than Smoke is. Sektor's teleport is not a free hit move on par with getting frozen, speared or netted though...and unlike those moves which will most likely be done from a far, if blocked there's no penalty....unlike a blocked Sektor teleport where he gets punished. That's the difference, so I'd have to disagree on that. That is not really a free hit move, but a move that he can follow up combo damage on if connected/not blocked. The only thing that makes Cyrax's bombs more tricky is the pro aggressive/rush down element MK X has with run. But the same can be said about Sektor, zoning in this came is near to non existent compared previous MK games namely MK 9...

Sektor's free hit move was patched(his free hit stun on rising missiles) that was a free hit....Cyrax's damage is easier and higher than most Sektor combos though, every character requires execution and such though to a degree....

With Triborg as far as I'm concerned Hardest to easiest: Cyber Sub>>>Sektor>>Smoke>>>>>>Cyrax. I may agree that Sektor and Smoke are comparable in some ways as far as combos, since I've noticed Smoke's combos are weird and harder to connect compared to his past iterations, I used to use him but dropped him. Cyrax is not THAT difficult to use, if you can set up well he's not that hard. He also has loads of tools fast teleport, unblockable set ups, bombs, nets for free hits etc Sektor is harder to use than Cyrax at the end of the day. Sektor is not easy to use lol. He may have less to worry about in terms of his move set but that doesn't mean he's easy to win with by any means. His rising missiles in MK 9 were AA and Anti teleports from above, this game not the case they go right through....
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Lol what are you talking about... sektor is by far the easiest to play of the borgs.

It is known.
Just because a famous player says so? Sorry disagree as do many others as well, have you read this thread? the tier list threads? Notice most don't agree on the same list...everyone has their own list of who's top, who's not etc thus this thread for example. If it was that easy why aren't there Sektor's dominating? lol It's not known and not easy, he's a zoning character and zoning sucks in this game. Period. Do you even use Triborg? lol. Also don't confuse easiest to use with easiest to win with. Cyrax isn't that hard to use, neither is Sektor but WIN with? Yeah different story....

"Easy to play, Hard to Master" comes to mind when I think of Sektor, Cyrax etc
 
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CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Just because a famous player says so? Sorry disagree and many others as well, everyone has their own list of who's top, who's not etc thus this thread for example. If it was that easy why aren't there Sektor's dominating? lol It's not known and not easy, he's a zoning character and zoning sucks in this game. Period. Do you even use Triborg? lol
ok Zoning doesn't suck in this game anymore. It's not broken but you can't say it's bad now considering we don't have run in then armor through projectiles and there is a consequence to getting hit during a run in. Zoning is better if not actively good. Don't talk about zoning sucking when it no longer sucks. Period.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
ok Zoning doesn't suck in this game anymore. It's not broken but you can't say it's bad now considering we don't have run in then armor through projectiles and there is a consequence to getting hit during a run in. Zoning is better if not actively good. Don't talk about zoning sucking when it no longer sucks.
It's better now I admit but it's still not that great compared to past MK's, namely MK 9 here...that is pretty obvious. I am not a fan of trying to get space and someone able to get in my face in a few seconds and being penalized for backdashing? I'm sorry but dumbest idea they've come up with that shit needs to go in the next game. Currently zoning is not as bad as it was but it's still not that good, I can literally count the list of characters zoning viable on one hand. To me that's a problem when the game consists of 30+ characters. Just saying. So I'll agree with you that it's currently "not horrible" but compared to MK 9 it sucks, I think most would agree with that.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
It's better now I admit but it's still not that great compared to past MK's, namely MK 9 here...that is pretty obvious. I am not a fan of trying to get space and someone able to get in my face in a few seconds and being penalized for backdashing? I'm sorry but dumbest idea they've come up with that shit needs to go in the next game. Currently zoning is not as bad as it was but it's still not that good, I can literally count the list of characters zoning viable on one hand. To me that's a problem when the game consists of 30+ characters. Just saying. So I'll agree with you that it's currently "not horrible" but compared to MK 9 it sucks, I think most would agree with that.
that's because MK9 zoning was busted. Do you really want busted zoning? there is a difference between being broken and being viable. Zoning is 100% viable and even then we've seen that Sektor isn't purely zoning. Just look at how Fox plays him. THAT is how the character should be played. If you are just zoning with this character and not taking advantage of what he can do up close you're doing it wrong. Yes MK9, zoning was much better but it was oppressive. Which feels worse, people being able to get in on your zoning a little easier or NEVER BEING ABLE TO MOVE EVER? This game isn't designed to be 100% zoning, that's clear with the run button. So why complain about Zoning not being the main source of play? It's GOOD. Zoning isn't just "ok" it's not just "not horrible" it is actively good in this game. Characters are getting placed higher on tier list due to zoning ability/counter zoning ability. Simply look at some top 5's that people have. Sonic's is a PERFECT example. You can disagree all you want with the semantics and specifics of the top 5 itself but we can't ignore that having a projectile or being able to counter projectiles in this current patch makes a character actively better.

In short. MK9 zoning was busted so almost anything in comparison to that is going to look terrible. Full screen lockdown =/= zoning.
 

Lokheit

Noob
Cryomancer jumped from kindergarten level execution (almost 90% of the combos consisted on cycling B2 and F421+3) to the hardest SZ variation due to the new combo paths, more room to play with gravity and tri-directional command grab during combos.

IMO Ninjutsu has to be the easiest character to learn for new comers, he's the one I recommend to friends needing to learn a character fast, Cryo used to be there with him too but not anymore by a longshot. Kitana seems to be really friendly too though you need to learn IA projectiles, I've started learning Mournful lately and I got her combos down relatively fast.
 
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CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Cryomancer jumped from kindergarten level execution (almost 90% of the combos consisted on cycling B2 and F421+3) to the hardest SZ variation due to the new combo paths and tri-directional command grab during combos.

IMO Ninjutsu has to be the easiest character to learn for new comers, he's the one I recommend to friends needing to learn a character fast, Cryo used to be there with him too but not anymore by a longshot. Kitana seems to be really friendly too though you need to learn IA projectiles, I've started learning Mournful lately and I got her combos down relatively fast.
for beginners at a low level i'd say Slasher is way easier. Combos are easier, has a straight forward approach and is covered in armor (having a lot of good armor should be a factor in a character's placement for difficulty because it makes defense pretty one dimensional, less to think about)
 

Kroaken

Life is a block string with no gaps.
Just because a famous player says so? Sorry disagree as do many others as well, have you read this thread? the tier list threads? Notice most don't agree on the same list...everyone has their own list of who's top, who's not etc thus this thread for example. If it was that easy why aren't there Sektor's dominating? lol It's not known and not easy, he's a zoning character and zoning sucks in this game. Period. Do you even use Triborg? lol. Also don't confuse easiest to use with easiest to win with. Cyrax isn't that hard to use, neither is Sektor but WIN with? Yeah different story....

"Easy to play, Hard to Master" comes to mind when I think of Sektor, Cyrax etc
Woah woah... what? What famous player said what? Idk what you're referencing.

Anyway.. no, I'm speaking in regards to combos and neutral. In both categories, sektor is easier to use. Which is the reason for this thread. And zoning is much better now. Not sure if ur joking or..

And did you really just hit me with the "do you even triborg" line? Lol. Why aren't Sektors dominating? What does that have to do with his ease of use in comparison to Cyrax? Hint: there aren't an army of cyrax players dominating the stage either. But, to reiterate, that has nothing to do with the question at hand :)

Cyrax is hard to pick up. Very hard to master.
Sektor is easy to pick up. Normal to master. Imo. And that's using the OPS terms.
 
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MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
that's because MK9 zoning was busted. Do you really want busted zoning? there is a difference between being broken and being viable. Zoning is 100% viable and even then we've seen that Sektor isn't purely zoning. Just look at how Fox plays him. THAT is how the character should be played. If you are just zoning with this character and not taking advantage of what he can do up close you're doing it wrong. Yes MK9, zoning was much better but it was oppressive. Which feels worse, people being able to get in on your zoning a little easier or NEVER BEING ABLE TO MOVE EVER? This game isn't designed to be 100% zoning, that's clear with the run button. So why complain about Zoning not being the main source of play? It's GOOD. Zoning isn't just "ok" it's not just "not horrible" it is actively good in this game. Characters are getting placed higher on tier list due to zoning ability/counter zoning ability. Simply look at some top 5's that people have. Sonic's is a PERFECT example. You can disagree all you want with the semantics and specifics of the top 5 itself but we can't ignore that having a projectile or being able to counter projectiles in this current patch makes a character actively better.

In short. MK9 zoning was busted so almost anything in comparison to that is going to look terrible. Full screen lockdown =/= zoning.
MK9 wasn't busted in that regard, it had broken elements with characters but zoning is a viable tactic. There was dashing, if someone let themselves get stuck on the other side of the screen that's their fault. There was faster jumping, dashing etc it's not like they had no options but NRS went from that to an extreme offense which is broken if your opponent can just get in your face in a second, what's the point of turtling, zoning, spacing etc?

I don't want busted anything in any form, I just want zoning as an option. As long as there's a run option zoning is essentially moot/pointless. And I'll argue that with anyone. It's not viable in MKX with anyone, is it possible with KJ A, Sektor, QC etc sure, but is it actually super good? Hell no. It's forcing players to play an up close game when not everyone likes to do that, thus restricting people's play styles.

Just because one guy out of an entire community plays him that way doesn't mean much, the majority of Sektor players aren't dominating and if he was so sure of him he'd use just Sektor in majors and not Black, Alien etc. Zoning is not actively good in this game, good is keeping people away and that's not broken if someone can't jump at the right time, teleport or dash in. Dude, I have gotten in on people with instant air kabals in MK 9 with Sektor, Scorpion, Ermac weaker characters if I let someone zone me out with just fireballs, saws then that's my fault for not being smart enough to find a way in. But forcing people to fight up close in a clearly pro aggressive game which MK X is btw, not cool....people have complained about this for months til KP 2 and recent adjustments and while I agree that it's better it's still not good enough to say "hey this guy won off smart zoning tactics" I could say the same about the opposite viewpoint, those who rushdown need to learn spacing, zoning, defense etc if you're going to say that. That's a door that swings both ways man.

Also as mentioned before and I know I'm not the only one to have issues with this is being penalized for backdashing=dumbest thing ever. You can't honestly tell me that's a good idea, you want to add a run ok but don't penalize the more defensive player...It's like fighting two things your opponent and the meter working against you. At least with running you're taking the risk to move in, but backdashing? Who the hell am I hurting? lol Think about it, why give a character tools effective farther away when you can't use them to full potential? It's like giving someone a slingshot with limited pullback power. It's stupid.

MK 9 wasn't busted or terrible with zoning and are you forgetting Cage, KL, Kabal etc up close in that game? lol I got in all the time if you let yourself stay there that's your fault the entire match.

You keep using Sonic, he doesn't rep the entire community he's one player and even he's lost at times. There is no way to use a character, there's using a character to better potential but I don't believe in "well this guy uses him this way, so everyone should too" that's bs to me, because there's different tactics. I also never said that I or anyone relies on just one tactic, obviously you need overall fundamentals but you must realize a lot of people zone and use it as a way of playing offensive while playing defensive. MK X is all rushdown 50/50s, armor etc. With 5% zoning, defense etc

You can disagree all you want, toot Sonic til dawn it's not changing my viewpoint so best to agree to disagree as many of us have with each other in all these topics.

Woah woah... what? What famous player said what? Idk what you're referencing.

Anyway.. no, I'm speaking in regards to combos and neutral. In both categories, sektor is easier to use. Which is the reason for this thread. And zoning is much better now. Not sure if ur joking or..

And did you really just hit me with the "do you even triborg" line? Lol. Why aren't Sektors dominating? What does that have to do with his ease of use in comparison to Cyrax? Hint: there aren't an army of cyrax players dominating the stage either. But, to reiterate, that has nothing to do with the question at hand :)

Cyrax is normal to pick up. Hard to master.
Sektor is easy/beginner to pick up. Normal to master. Imo. And that's using the OPS terms.
Sonic..


Well with combos even though this can vary from player to player as I mentioned earlier, most characters have easy to normal level ones. Some maybe harder with cancelling, more crucial timing etc but that's like I said Sektor, Cyrax may be easy to use but hard to win. Sektor is a good overall character, he's by not means "shitty" I'm not saying that, but he's not like "super top tier level" level until I see someone dominating with him at a major or destroying everyone online full of reasonably skilled people in a room I'm not buying it, or everyone would be using him at tourneys, online etc I haven't seen Sektor player in months online and for offline I only know of a few on here literally. I've seen alot more Cyrax players. The reason for the thread is learning curve and that can vary from player to player, character to character for various reasons updates, fixes, player fundamentals, learning curve levels etc.

From online alone since the big update netcode I've seen the following of triborg in order...

Smokes>>>>Cyrax>>>>Cyber Subs>>>>>>>>>>>>Sektor. In that order.

Sektor may be easier in those regards but harder to win in vs. Cyrax and Smoke, they have resets, stun moves(spears, nets) when I say stun moves, Sektor doesn't have that. He had the rising missile stun but they took it away so......yeah. You didn't answer my question when I asked why aren't Sektor's dominating? If he's so easy to use lol. Easy characters are used a ton, OP characters are used a ton. Like I told the other guy I haven't seen Sektor's in months online between ranked, player, KOTH whatever...and in tourneys the only known player who uses him on here is Cossner. Who else though? Exactly. I never said Cyrax players are dominating but there's sure as hell way MORE Cyrax and Smoke players than I see Sektors....

Most characters are hard to master, I don't see how Sektor is OP disagree bigtime there. First week I agree, he was busted but he got nerfed and the only update in his favor recently was pushback increase on the flame. I would hardly call Sektor OP.....IMHO, this entire thread, the tier topics etc are all full of pages of debate. Why? Because not everyone agrees with everyone else, it's all perspective. As a big zoning player myself, I don't feel Sektor is OP, he's good overall but hardly dominating level.
 
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I edited the OP. But there's still a few more things that need to be done. Such as going through all of the new post and editing the character rankings. As well as writing descriptions for all the tiers. I still have a lot of work left ahead of so please stay patient. I'll try to get more done tomorrow.
 

Kroaken

Life is a block string with no gaps.
Sektor being easier to use than Cyrax, which is what I believe we are debating, has nothing to do with sektor dominating or not, though.

Sektor hasn't been dominating because there were plenty of chars better than him.

He's easy to use... but that won't win tournaments for him. Can someone familiar with mkx pick up sektor and perform fairly well with minimal investment? I think so. At the very least, perform better than one would with cyrax given the same amount of investment. Which is what we're getting at.

This isn't a tier lit or a rating of how good a given char is. To my understanding.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Well if you're saying "Sektor is OP" that means you think he's a dominating character, OP means overpowered...he's not OP. You've said this in your previous post. He's good, but not OP.

Exactly my point.

He may be easier to learn, but so is Cyrax and several other characters. Winning with them though requires higher execution, smarts etc. LK typically across MK's is easy to learn too. It depends on who they're facing too be to be fair, if they're facing a noob anyone can win with anyone vs. that kind of player. A decent skilled player, depends anything higher I don't see the Sektor player casually winning or holding their own against someone who knows what they're doing IMO.

Maybe, maybe not. There's where I disagree with you especially, if we throw Sektor or Cyrax vs. random player I think it'll depend on the level of said player, if he or she knows what they're doing that person using Sek or Cyrax will lose regardless in that situation. Then there's the match up aspect too remember. You're right it's not a tier thread, but I'm just pointing out that people can and have disagreed with one another in this thread similar to those topics.
 

Kroaken

Life is a block string with no gaps.
I don't think I said, nor do I think, that sektor is op. Not even remotely.

We need a third perspective at this point.