Discussion MY MKXL PATCH LIST FOR KP3 (Post Yours)

[TheGangstaFace]

Cmon you know it should be minimum -6

Tremor does not need to be nerfed AGAIN. Chill.

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

Guys, with all those changes, Grandmaster Sub-Zero would get buffed indirectly BUT he also would get NERFED indirectly:

- Teching a throw now adds full invincibility frames to both players during the full tech escape window animation.

No more Grab into Ice Clone.

And REO have proposed a nerf to Grandmaster, so, chill out.

Grandmaster:
- Ice Shatter combos in the corner now have increased damage scaling.

 

[21122]

Erron Black

F132 becomes a mid instead of an overhead and is 9 frame startup and is safe on block
F121 becomes the overhead

 

[thlityoursloat]

Alright but though I'd like to hear some arguments for ruthless being braindead. They're very good I don't deny that but their gameplan is too complex for being a potato.

How different is Ruthless to D'vorah? The meta is pretty much the same, smother them with 50/50s and safe pressure. You absolutely CAN'T get zoned because Ferra has an appetite for projectiles apparently and you don't even have to get that close since you have a half screen NJP and his EX bane charge.
Damage is freaking ridiculous and don't tell me "but it costs health", because you have the luxury of breaking often since you never need meter for anything.

 

[ismael4790]

Just a small observation:

Inferno scorpion low minion is -45 on whiff. It's a low launcher.

Kenshi's teleflurry is -43 on whiff. It's a 9% space control high move.

Does anybody still think Teleflurry shouldn't be buffed?

 

[Marinjuana]

Just a small observation:

Inferno scorpion low minion is -45 on whiff. It's a low launcher. Kenshi's teleflurry is -43 on whiff. It's a 9% space control high move. Does anybody still think Teleflurry shouldn't be buffed?

Bad example. Low minion is 28 frame start up and super punishable. Teleflurry is 14 startup that's -9 on block. Not to mention they are two completely different characters with different tool sets.

 

[the.hamburglar]

How different is Ruthless to D'vorah? The meta is pretty much the same, smother them with 50/50s and safe pressure. You absolutely CAN'T get zoned because Ferra has an appetite for projectiles apparently and you don't even have to get that close since you have a half screen NJP and his EX bane charge.
Damage is freaking ridiculous and don't tell me "but it costs health", because you have the luxury of breaking often since you never need meter for anything.

The only armor he has is that charge, and you contradict yourself with the "you dont need meter for anything" when you said that from Mid screen he does the ex charge. You ignored my point about how you can armor out of b1,2,1 if he cancels into anything including P and G, which lemme remind you, is negative on block. If he finishes the string, hes at enough distance to start your pressure. While I can agree with your zoning point, if he whiffs it he cant throw ferra till she returns in which you can counter zone, run up and only the overhead ferra eats projectiles I believe
"Damage is insane" dont get hit scrub
Jokes aside, he is a great character but dont uplay him.
Edit: Did some testing, theres no gap if he does low ferra. Overhead and P&G has a gap

 

[ismael4790]

Bad example. Low minion is 28 frame start up and super punishable. Teleflurry is 14 startup that's -9 on block. Not to mention they are two completely different characters with different tool sets.

Now we can't compare characters?

Also, they are both considered their zoning oriented variation for their character, so the comparison is appropiate imo.

Risk/reward relation at long range (where the moves should be used mostly) is much better for low minion than for teleflurry.

 

[the.hamburglar]

Now we can't compare characters?

Also, they are both considered their zoning oriented variation for their character, so the comparison is appropiate imo.

Risk/reward relation at long range is much better for low minion than for teleflurry.

I agree with your idea but I dont think comparison is fair. Like he said, teo very different characters with two completely different tools and play styles.

 

[thlityoursloat]

The only armor he has is that charge, and you contradict yourself with the "you dont need meter for anything" when you said that from Mid screen he does the ex charge. You ignored my point about how you can armor out of b1,2,1 if he cancels into anything including P and G, which lemme remind you, is negative on block. If he finishes the string, hes at enough distance to start your pressure. While I can agree with your zoning point, if he whiffs it he cant throw ferra till she returns in which you can counter zone, run up and only the overhead ferra eats projectiles I believe
"Damage is insane" dont get hit scrub
Jokes aside, he is a great character but dont uplay him.
Edit: Did some testing, theres no gap if he does low ferra. Overhead and P&G has a gap

He doesn't really need to bane charge, it's a luxury, really, his counter zoning without it is already top. Ferra gets on his back pretty quick and it's not like you can do anything to stop her lol. Seriously, I've never seen counter zoning this brain dead, I've always thought Sonya had it easy against zoners but F/T take the cake for sure.
What's the point of PnG cancels being negative if he's armored? B12 Oh gaps can be baited anyways since he's safe.

 

[Error]

Ermac:
- J+3 now normalized.
- Hurtbox on D+3 slightly increased.
- Ground Slam is now -6 on block.
- Hitbox on F+4 slightly increased so it no longer whiffs on certain characters crouching.

Mystic:
- Infinite health glitch now fixed.
- EX Push start up is now 12 frames.
- EX Push active frames now cut in half.
- EX Push no longer pushes the opponent back on block.
- EX Push is now -9 on block.

I get the active frames part since he's getting a full combo off of a safe armored move on a trade and the glitch of course, but I don't really understand the thought process behind nerfing the move in so many different ways, any particular reason for this? I'd be cool with it if the regular push was made less punishable at max distance.

 

[evolution07]

Everyone nowadays is abusing low pokes into specials, and I've done it myself, but I do wish that feature was removed.

I'd like to see some of the higher tiers toned down a bit, but not enough to make them "worthless" as some would say. I don't believe any character should be super + on block that you have to sit back and get pressured half the time.

I can't speak enough on frame data, but reducing some of Johnnys jailing pressure and his F3 being able to RC on whiff needs to be addressed.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I agree with the Alien changes. He would still be really good even without the armored ex flip with the retarded hitbox. The way air ex flip munches anti airs is really fucked up. Iv been on the giving and receiving end of grief with this move. Iv tried to anti air with Triborg's stand 4 (in retrospect it's my fault for being dumb enough for thinking I could anti air jump 2) but he ex flips and I get fucked. And as if been learning Alien iv been using it to munch anti airs with the huge ass hit box. It would also encourage Alien specialists to learn all variations. If they really want that armor launcher they could go with Tarkatan, Acidic would be more space control based and Acidic players would be more compelled to zone insted of just ex flip on in there. Konjurer could do whatever the hell Konjurer does. I haven't really messed with Konjurer yet. So far it's just been Tarkatan but I plan on learning all variations.

 

[dennycascade]

He doesn't really need to bane charge, it's a luxury, really, his counter zoning without it is already top. Ferra gets on his back pretty quick and it's not like you can do anything to stop her lol. Seriously, I've never seen counter zoning this brain dead, I've always thought Sonya had it easy against zoners but F/T take the cake for sure.
What's the point of PnG cancels being negative if he's armored? B12 Oh gaps can be baited anyways since he's safe.

Please stop stating these things as facts if you've never played the matchup on a high level. F/T's counter zoning is weak, especially in ruthless. Ferra tosses are easily avoided by a zoner who knows what they're doing, and they leave torr somewhat defenseless (no special moves) for a while. On a correct read they can literally run under it and full combo punish it. The meta against zoning for f/t isn't as simple as "throw Ferra, eat projectiles, boom now I'm in". Also, having a bottom 2 run speed, slow advancing normals and a floaty jump makes keepaway tactics very difficult for f/t to deal with. If you want a perfect example of this on tournament level, go watch Biohazard vs Big D's Mystic Ermac in Combo Breaker's losers bracket. Ferra/Torr hits like the hulk when they get in, so Ermac does everything in his power to keep them away, which ends up being an extremely difficult tactic to overcome.

 

[thlityoursloat]

Please stop stating these things as facts if you've never played the matchup on a high level. F/T's counter zoning is weak, especially in ruthless. Ferra tosses are easily avoided by a zoner who knows what they're doing, and they leave torr somewhat defenseless (no special moves) for a while. On a correct read they can literally run under it and full combo punish it. The meta against zoning for f/t isn't as simple as "throw Ferra, eat projectiles, boom now I'm in". Also, having a bottom 2 run speed, slow advancing normals and a floaty jump makes keepaway tactics very difficult for f/t to deal with. If you want a perfect example of this on tournament level, go watch Biohazard vs Big D's Mystic Ermac in Combo Breaker's losers bracket. Ferra/Torr hits like the hulk when they get in, so Ermac does everything in his power to keep them away, which ends up being an extremely difficult tactic to overcome.

Where and when did I state my experience as facts?
F/T's counter zoning isn't 'weak', Bo Rai Cho's counter zoning is weak, not the character who can throw an OH projectile that eats every other projectile in the game. Floaty jump doesn't matter since his jump punch is very good, it's not like he has Kano's floatiness in conjunction with Kano's jips.

 

[OnlineSkunk]

Can someone send this vision of a more balanced MKX game to Paulo? This is pretty much all they have to do actually, BTW block breakers should only take the user stamina and combo breaker stay the same otherwise this may make defensive and zoners a bit too good, I don't mind though.

 

[Trauma_and_Pain]

only the overhead ferra eats projectiles I believe

All Ferra throws eat projectiles. And the Overhead toss doesn't always have a gap. B1,2 xx OH Toss is almost as good as B1,2,1 xx OH Toss, but with no gap.

Still, he's not braindead like @thlityoursloat is claiming. I don't believe there is any braindead character in the game, they all require plenty of skill and practice to master. But if there were any, it would be those who rely heavily on 50/50s, which Ruthless doesn't. If he were so braindead, there should be more Ferra/Torrs on Biohazard's level.

 

[Trauma_and_Pain]

the character who can throw an OH projectile that eats every other projectile in the game.

Have you ever even seen the arc on Overhead Toss? It's high like Cage's green fireball. It doesn't come close to eating every other projectile in the game in reality, since most of them go right under Ferra and hit Torr (which causes Ferra to lose her hitbox entirely, causing F/T to lose the projectile trade).

Vicious is the one with Boss Toss, which eats most projectiles. Then there are still low projectiles which only the Low Toss will ever absorb.

 

[thlityoursloat]

Have you ever even seen the arc on Overhead Toss? It's high like Cage's green fireball. It doesn't come close to eating every other projectile in the game in reality, since most of them go right under Ferra and hit Torr (which causes Ferra to lose her hitbox entirely, causing F/T to lose the projectile trade).

Vicious is the one with Boss Toss, which eats most projectiles. Then there are still low projectiles which only the Low Toss will ever absorb.

I was playing as Commando Kano and I could've sworn all my knives were getting eaten by Ferra.

 

[the.hamburglar]

All Ferra throws eat projectiles. And the Overhead toss doesn't always have a gap. B1,2 xx OH Toss is almost as good as B1,2,1 xx OH Toss, but with no gap.

Still, he's not braindead like @thlityoursloat is claiming. I don't believe there is any braindead character in the game, they all require plenty of skill and practice to master. But if there were any, it would be those who rely heavily on 50/50s, which Ruthless doesn't. If he were so braindead, there should be more Ferra/Torrs on Biohazard's level.

Thanks for the tip, I actually didnt know about b1,2 OH toss. I think people uplay him because of the damage. Great character but like all, he has flaws

 

[Eji1700]

I think that's poor game design. Aside from a few exceptions, there's literally no reason why ridiculous normal attacks that lead to pressure, devastating damage on hit, already empower the character's neutral, etc. etc. should have invincible fire-ball esque hitboxes.

One of the reason's people hate Marth in melee is because of his absurd normals with no hurtboxes that are prevalent in the neutral game. I really don't think anyone can make a case for their character being "ruined" or "unplayable" if the character is now vulnerable like 80% of the cast when swinging with their attacks.up.

99% of the cast can't make ice clones. 99% of the cast can't steal an opponents special move. Good game design for a fighter (IMO) is giving everyone something uniquely bullshit but still having most things be viable at the end of the day (what drew me to Guilty Gear).

As long as it's balanced there's nothing wrong with disjointed hitboxes, and there's plenty of games that have done it well. GG, SF, MvC's, and hell even Melee. Melee is a game that obviously has some shit tiers, but I'd rather see everyone buffed up to the god tier than nerfing marth down. Obviously more than half the cast isn't viable, but in practice you've got about 8 playable characters (Fox, Falco, Marth, Shiek, Jiggs, Peach, Ice Climbers, and Falcon...with surprise appearances from specialists here an there). Maybe the spacies could take a slight hit, but beyond that I say let it rock.

For MKX I don't see a huge reason they can't do disjointed hitboxes ( i mean we're talking about a game where half the cast has a teleport that leads to a full combo). Maybe D'vorah/Alien can have them since "it's part of their body" sorta like dhalsim, and it could help balance their normals, but for the rest of them if it's a problem I'd say nerf them somewhere else, if it's needed at all. For someone like takeda I feel like that's the entire point of his character (or at least two of his variants.)

 

[REO]

Half screen normals with no hurtboxes is terrible design and it needs to die off in future NRS titles. (it's fine if characters have half screen normals, but seriously ditch the invincible weapons that specifically use these attacks.) Especially in a game with impactful chip on block, jailing pressure off normals, and maximum BNB damage off said normals if they make contact.

Takeda, D'Vorah, Alien etc. etc. would still be extremely strong character if their ranged normal attacks had hurtboxes on them. I have no idea why so many think it would be so easy to react to an ATTACK with such range and to stuff or clip them in their recovery or active frames. Doing things like that is a HARD read and it adds nothing more than extra depth to the game.

Yeah, so what if Grandmaster could possibly go 5-5 with some of those characters and give them a fight. He's not doing 40%+ meterless damage off ice shatter combos in the corner anymore, his abusive jumping is toned down, his armor launcher has no more pushback on block which makes it slightly easier to punish, and he lost his guaranteed tech'd throws into the corner with Ice Clone which are currently busted. Seems there's a bit too much ruckus of Sub-Zero potentially becoming a high tier character. No matter what you do, there's always gonna be certain characters that are high tier. I don't see the need for this particular witch hunt.


And how is anyone going to say that a Shotgun Jacqui patiently waiting out side Shirai Ryu Takeda's range with no stamina, ends up whiff punishing the Takeda at max distance's last hit of F+1,2+4 string with her standing 1 linked into Low Shotgun Blast to capture him and then go in for the win? That would be ridiculously hype and something that would require a very precise frame of windows to even perform. You guys are really telling me a crowd at a tournament wouldn't be fascinated by a feat like that?


I'm gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't really care what other fighting games have things like these. I think they're all dumb unless it's disjointed hitboxes for anti air attacks (which many have and need), specific and rare character cases, or melee type projectile attacks.


The invincible attacks with no hurtboxes are at an all time high in MKX and extremely prevalent. It would be an entirely different case if it was just one culprit.

 

[REO]

And for anyone who thinks whiff punishing attacks with half screen range would be so easy, then try to do this in training mode 10 out of 10:

Tanya's B,F+2 attack in Dragon Naginata is the perfect example of a well designed attack. It covers a ton of space and distance, it is one of the furthest reaching attacks in the game, AND it has a hurtbox. Now try to whiff punish this attack in training mode with a character's standing jab (that has a hurtbox) far away from Tanya while she is still in range for her attack's hitbox.

Keep in mind this is practicing against the AI for something that you 100% KNOW is coming. Doing this consistently in a real match against a smart player that knows how to use this attack in an unpredictable manner is a different story.

I do Alien's uppercut (D+2) at the end to trade to close out a win or gain the life lead advantage as an example.

 

[Trauma_and_Pain]

I was playing as Commando Kano and I could've sworn all my knives were getting eaten by Ferra.

That's Boss Toss. Only Vicious has that move. Look, it's clear your understanding of the character is sketchy at best. I think the lesson here is to withhold judgment until you really know what you're talking about.

As a friend of mine once said when I asked him why he sometimes paused in the middle of sentences, "Better to shut your mouth and look like an idiot, than open your mouth and prove you're an idiot."

 

[thlityoursloat]

That's Boss Toss. Only Vicious has that move. Look, it's clear your understanding of the character is sketchy at best. I think the lesson here is to withhold judgment until you really know what you're talking about.

As a friend of mine once said when I asked him why he sometimes paused in the middle of sentences, "Better to shut your mouth and look like an idiot, than open your mouth and prove you're an idiot."

Sounds like your friend has stuttering issues, and no, he didn't say that because he has stuttering issues.