Question - Cyber Sub-Zero F2 Replacing 1112, more nerfs soon?

[MadeOfMetal]

yeah but reo suggested one of them become a mid and the other be unsafe on block, they did one better and made both unsafe.

bombs don't need to be a mid because some players don't want to lab up how to block what could be one of the easiest blockables in the game. if they add 5 frame buffer window in it. and if they made it tighter than 5 frames then it would cancel the low bomb into a mid. which would negate the pop up for combo on both characters.

its like everyone forgot about, Quan, Tremor, Tekada and all the others who still have them.


you know some others could ask for buffs on their charaacters that are mid to low tier instead of nerfing other characters.


i am 100% aginst cyrax bombs being a mid.

for christ sakes he had unblockable bombs in mk9. its like poeple forgot about that game?

they have allready been nerfed to hell on this one, why make them usless, his game has always been bomb setups, you make them mids then there is no use for them. they startup at 106 frames for the love of god.


bottom line remove the reset and he is normalized...

i say if noone else gets the HTB's removed then he doesnt either.. he has crappier neutral than the others anyways.

 

[scarsunseen]

How about making CSZ's dive-kick a mid, like Kung Lao, Kung Jin, and Sonya? Seems rational.

 

[MadeOfMetal]

How about making CSZ's dive-kick a mid, like Kung Lao, Kung Jin, and Sonya? Seems rational.

what about kano's oh maybe him and kano are the ones that make it different, and kanos goes oh to low, so i dont see whats cheap about it..

and predators trap thats low into jik wich can be done the same way as CSZ

 

[scarsunseen]

what about kano's oh maybe him and kano are the ones that make it different, and kanos goes oh to low, so i dont see whats cheap about it..

and predators trap thats low into jik wich can be done the same way as CSZ

Well, Kano's air-ball isn't oh/low at almost precisely the same time, so even though I don't like playing against it, leave it in. I'm not a fan of Predator's instant oh/low trap. Just my 2 cents. Even though I now play a character (Cyrax) with almost-instant oh/low setups, I think they gotta go. Cyrax is just my favorite character. =\

 

[MadeOfMetal]

Well, Kano's air-ball isn't oh/low at almost precisely the same time, so even though I don't like playing against it, leave it in. I'm not a fan of Predator's instant oh/low trap. Just my 2 cents. Even though I now play a character (Cyrax) with almost-instant oh/low setups, I think they gotta go. Cyrax is just my favorite character. =\

well i like them and enjoy that tool to open people up, who hasnt practiced the matchup.. im sure down the road others will learn how to block them as i have.

when you play cyrax you know the timings for jiklow or low jik setups, and know how to block accordingly on prediction.

not only can they Block the low then oh or block the oh then low, but they can Backdash it all together, run under them, some can slide under or roll or dash puch past it. uppercut and eat the low if the timing is tight, and take an even trade.

i could understand if that was the only thing being thrown out, and there was no options for it.

but that is not the case.

and even though u like cyrax and use him, you can simply not use it.

but i will use all tool available to me to open my opponent up.

 

[RM Ree]

How about making CSZ's dive-kick a mid, like Kung Lao, Kung Jin, and Sonya? Seems rational.

All the characters you mentioned can start a combo with their dive kicks and proceed straight into strings. They also have strong neutral tools in the form of mids.

 

[MadeOfMetal]

All the characters you mentioned can start a combo with their dive kicks and proceed straight into strings. They also have strong neutral tools in the form of mids.

yes i agree, i believe after the hotfix, he has been somewhat normalized already.

that corner setup can be nasty, but obviously they intend to keep HTB's since on this hot fix they didn't take away HTB's they gave one to Tremor that from what i hear he never had before. note: Tremor has a one frame link HTB with his uprock adjustment.

im fine with this... the way i look at it, is if i get myself in that situation then i did something wrong, and there are windows for me to escape with armor or other means before that rock is on the way down.

i am not a Tekada, Tremor, Quan, or Predator player, and im fine with them having their HTB setups. they have to get me in that situation before they can pull that off on me anyways, and if they do, its good job bro, nice work.

i will then lab up hopw to not get in that situation again, and what i did wrong.

i think some people got it ass backwards on here, their mentality is to nerf or to strip all the tough situations away from the roster, instead of leveling up their weaknesses in their game.

its always easier to blame a move or a character than it is to work on yourself and adapt to your downfalls.


what im seeing is this games meta is unreactible 50/50's, guess work, Hard reads, unforgiving, HTB setups, and vortexes.

instead of fighting what this game is about you can work on the meta or play another game.

i will choose to adapt.

the one thing i agree on is Cyrax must lose the Reset.

he is my favorite character, and its only fair that he loses it because our games decision maker deemed loops "unfair" and removed Quans meterless one. now quan can only loop it 3 times with meter. but can do it with HKD setups meterless.

Cyrax has a hard time getting anyone in his without meter.

his neutral isn't the greatest.

he has his easy 50/50 options with meter, and easy njp without.

his meterless bombs are not so easy.

106 frames on startup with 73 frames of recovery. (they don't have to be respected when you know the matchup)

and even when they are metered they are 15 frames on startup (thats a huge gap to teleport them, armor them, make both trade, backdash into block. ive even seen them NJ'ed on occasion)

some characters have many more options.

once we have a few months under our belts we will find many holes in the DLC's game.

bottom line, im betting they remove the reset and leave the HTB's, but note that i have frequently asked NRS and WB to add additional frames to block HTB's and remove the capability to make them link 1 frame within eachother, at min i requested they make it a 3 frame link to 5 so almost everybody could block them if blocked correctly.

 

[babalook]

Something I don't see mentioned enough is that if you block cybersub's bomb into b3d4 you can full combo punish him.

 

[Invincible Salads]

Yea because everyone will be using DLC, exploring them. Bo has 40% combos that loop into a 35% literally unblockable combo. 75% total for one touch unless you break. Cyrax has even harder to block setups, 40%+ midscreen meterless, 40% off a NJP meterless, endless looping from HTB midscreen, etc. LF can Batgirl 2.0 you to a victory. And still, all the dirt the original cast can still do is untouched like how people rarely block Takeda's HTB that leads to high damage, and if you do block he's still super +. Bio is hitting people with 50% midscreen in tourneys, while having strong options everywhere on the screen. But all that is perfectly fine because CSZ.


Doesn't make sense one bit to me. I almost hope he gets nerfed again so maybe people will notice what's actually broken.

whats this unblockable bo combo?

 

[MadeOfMetal]

Something I don't see mentioned enough is that if you block cybersub's bomb into b3d4 you can full combo punish him.

same with Cyrax HTB setup, that string is universal. and no one mentions it.

but characters like Tremor, tekada and Quan can't be punished if followed up correctly with safe methods.. which triborg currently doesn't have or hasn't been discovered yet, or not made public.

 

[scarsunseen]

All the characters you mentioned can start a combo with their dive kicks and proceed straight into strings. They also have strong neutral tools in the form of mids.

That is indeed true!

 

[Somea2V]

Well HTB is in almost EVERY FIGHTING GAME. I don't know why anyone complains about something that's in everything. I was a MvC3 player so playing with and against dirt just feels normal. However not everyone agrees and MKX should have its own little differences. Noone wants an easy win. As I found myself picking another character, Alien and Sektor, because one corner combo pretty much secured me a win. Hence a match I beat someone who had 80% health to my damn near 20%. He dropped a combo and I got a hold of him into a corner xarry and proceeded to win. Was Ithere hilarious? Yes.
I just like when everyone has fun

MvC3 is a special case of a game where most high level play consists of five seconds of footsies and then a round's over. An entire game based upon silly, ridiculous flash isn't exactly the best reference for defense of HTBs because this game doesn't even have half a cast that enjoys nonsense like this.

 

[SaltShaker]

whats this unblockable bo combo?

Remember, CSZ is too strong. The other DLC chars are fair.

 

[Invincible Salads]

Remember, CSZ is too strong. The other DLC chars are fair.

lol, yeah thats got to go, an csz shoujld have his knockdown back u.u

 

[MadeOfMetal]

Remember, CSZ is too strong. The other DLC chars are fair.

yeah ikr, its ok for others to keep even stronger dirt, but god forbid triborg gets something that could be considered close to cheap compared to the rest of the cast dirt.

i think thats what im gonna do, is im gonna upload all the HTB's in the game allreay exsisting, all vortex, all frametraps/blockstrings, godlike chip's, unblockables, and put them into one quick short video, so the 2 robots don't get all the grief, that way most of those people who main the new DLC's who are just directing hate or showering their nerf tears on CSZ and Cyrax don't feel so left out.

i honestly believe the HTB's are fine. since you know a good portion of the cast has them, and lets not get into RC pressure into unreactible 50/50's and all the other dirt the cast is compiled of.


this whole childish, your characters dirt has to go but mine should stay has got to stop!

 

[SaltShaker]

im gonna upload all the HTB's in the game allreay exsisting, all vortex, all frametraps/blockstrings, godlike chip's, unblockables, and put them into one quick short video, so the 2 robots don't get all the grief!

That idea is godlike. It's pretty silly how 2-3 Borgs get 90% of the hate when there's even worse stuff going on that barely gets brought up.

 

[MadeOfMetal]

That idea is godlike.

im not the best with each character, but ill do my best with the HTB's right now.. others can do the RC pressure, and vortex make u guesses if thats cool!

im uploading the HTB's right now.. just quick versions of them showing the capability of 1 frame links, not the high damage versions.

 

[SaltShaker]

im not the best with each character, but ill do my best with the HTB's right now.. others can do the RC pressure, and vortex make u guesses if thats cool!

im uploading the HTB's right now.. just quick versions of them showing the capability of 1 frame links, not the high damage versions.

Exactly. Butcher with high damage into reset 50/50's that two combos take you from one side of the screen to another. Killer with safe easy to hit confirm 50/50's that lead to high damage with chainsaw. Bo with all that silliness. Etc. There's just soooo much going on and people keep saying "oh look at TriBorg" lol.

 

[MadeOfMetal]

Exactly. Butcher with high damage into reset 50/50's that two combos take you from one side of the screen to another. Killer with safe easy to hit confirm 50/50's that lead to high damage with chainsaw. Bo with all that silliness. Etc. There's just soooo much going on and people keep saying "oh look at TriBorg" lol.

yep its dumb.

he is the only one under the radar atm.

my guess is they want their dirt to remain while eliminating the comp.

 

[Invincible Salads]

i don't even know how butcher and killer really work yet even .

 

[MadeOfMetal]

Ive been sick for the past week, so my execution is not up to par, but this short video should open up others to the idea that there are HTB's other than CSZ's and Cyrax's, and even though im not familiar with these other characters, they can do more damage, and many of them can leave them selves safe even when blocked correctly, not to mention when blocked they have options to pressure right after on hard reads..

i forgot to show tremors HTB in this one, but i forgive myself because the last hotfix that nerfed CSZ, Cyrax, and Sektor also effected manyothers in good and bad ways, not that anyone actually realized that with all the hate towards Triborg!

@SaltShaker


these characters can do so many more variations of HTB's than i even know, like i said before, i don't use those characters.

im sure Tekada can, instant air Tele for an HTB with (Low,Oh,Low,Low) , (Oh,low,Low,Low) , (low,low,oh,low) (low,low,low,oh)

and everyone is worried about CSZ and cyrax.

i think he can also Air DB1 for the same effect as IA-tele

....

tremor has some dirty HTB's with uprock now, and B33/B3DB2D and so on.

and they are safe i believe.

at least you can punish CSZ and Cyrax on block..


but like i said i never wanted anyone nerfed, but my own characters reset.

 

[SaltShaker]

Nice vid Jagged. Takeda has one with his NJP/EX Low Kunai that leads to combo and as hard to block as Quan's, anywhere on the screen, that people still use all the time. He also has inescapable block strings with a bar that do a ton of chip and build meter. That's just one character.

i don't even know how butcher and killer really work yet even .

A quick summary-

Butcher Batgirl- OH/Low that leads to high damage anywhere, combo restands twice ending + enough to guarantee another 50/50. If get hit once, and guess wrong once, you've lost almost 80% life and are in the corner to lose the rest of the % since the carry of two combos is 9/10 of the screen.

Killer- The Chainsaw Rip, which in block strings becomes a safe on block special with pushback, and strings on hit become chainsaw cancels for easy 40% midscreen BnB's, are his plan. So by doing a string of his choosing into Rip, he will either be A) safe on block at an ideal distance or B) cancel on hit into a combo for 40% or a few less % into a restand.

At any moment he can get in with a half screen advancing +2 on block OH hitting also AA'ing special, that when EX'd becomes an unsafe but dangerous OH combo starter.



Slow week speed though so he's fair. Nerf TriBorg to the ground.

 

[Invincible Salads]

Nice vid Jagged. Takeda has one with his NJP/EX Low Kunai that leads to combo and as hard to block as Quan's, anywhere on the screen, that people still use all the time. He also has inescapable block strings with a bar that do a ton of chip and build meter. That's just one character.



A quick summary-

Butcher Batgirl- OH/Low that leads to high damage anywhere, combo restands twice ending + enough to guarantee another 50/50. If get hit once, and guess wrong once, you've lost almost 80% life and are in the corner to lose the rest of the % since the carry of two combos is 9/10 of the screen.

Killer- The Chainsaw Rip, which in block strings becomes a safe on block special with pushback, and strings on hit become chainsaw cancels for easy 40% midscreen BnB's, are his plan. So by doing a string of his choosing into Rip, he will either be A) safe on block at an ideal distance or B) cancel on hit into a combo for 40% or a few less % into a restand.

At any moment he can get in with a half screen advancing +2 on block OH hitting also AA'ing special, that when EX'd becomes an unsafe but dangerous OH combo starter.



Slow week speed though so he's fair. Nerf TriBorg to the ground.

alright, ill need to go to the leatherface forums, so i can actually beat and maybe use this character.

 

[DownfouralitY]

Exactly. Butcher with high damage into reset 50/50's that two combos take you from one side of the screen to another. Killer with safe easy to hit confirm 50/50's that lead to high damage with chainsaw. Bo with all that silliness. Etc. There's just soooo much going on and people keep saying "oh look at TriBorg" lol.

I'm pretty sure most if not every Bo player thinks that unblockable reset is ridiculous and should be removed, but you also can't ignore the fact that Bo struggles insanely bad in the netural, has literally the worst mobility in the game, and an astounding lack of mids. I personally think Triborg is fine as he is now, and Paulo himself said that the new hotfix was the intended hotfix that was supposed to go out day one, so they're probably working on a new patch or hotfix or whatever for the ridiculous stuff.

 

[DanableLector]

And people wanted to know why I was coming off so strongly last week. This thread is still proving my point. They nerfed the character and you still have people screaming for more nerfs THE NEXT FUCKING DAY.

There is clearly a witch hunt going on and it can't be denied now. People don't want to lab, and they' rather make sure they never have to study the CSZ matchup if he's gutted. What a shame.

Majority of people crying don't even play the character! Lots of characters are death in the corner, this isn't a new thing. GM Sub Zero is a nightmare too, but no ones crying for nerfs there. I pray that NRS lets this thing play out before they make any rash decisions. CSZ in the corner is not a death sentence.