Question - Cyber Sub-Zero F2 Replacing 1112, more nerfs soon?

[Rip Torn]

Butcher Batgirl- OH/Low that leads to high damage anywhere, combo restands twice ending + enough to guarantee another 50/50. If get hit once, and guess wrong once, you've lost almost 80% life and are in the corner to lose the rest of the % since the carry of two combos is 9/10 of the screen.

Killer- The Chainsaw Rip, which in block strings becomes a safe on block special with pushback, and strings on hit become chainsaw cancels for easy 40% midscreen BnB's, are his plan. So by doing a string of his choosing into Rip, he will either be A) safe on block at an ideal distance or B) cancel on hit into a combo for 40% or a few less % into a restand.

At any moment he can get in with a half screen advancing +2 on block OH hitting also AA'ing special, that when EX'd becomes an unsafe but dangerous OH combo starter.



Slow week speed though so he's fair. Nerf TriBorg to the ground.

Comparing Butcher to Batgirl is kind of a stretch. Butcher is pretty unsafe, even the vortex is unsafe (the low option).

Killer seems pretty good, but doesn't have a great way of getting in. Killer doesn't have the df2 that butcher has. Alien, Triborg and BRC seem to have more dirt. Leatherface is the one DLC that actually seems balanced at this point.

 

[SaltShaker]

Comparing Butcher to Batgirl is kind of a stretch. Butcher is pretty unsafe, even the vortex is unsafe (the low option).

Killer seems pretty good, but doesn't have a great way of getting in. Killer doesn't have the df2 that butcher has. Alien, Triborg and BRC seem to have more dirt. Leatherface is the one DLC that actually seems balanced at this point.

He isn't a replica of Batgirl, but they have enough similarities with their huge screen carry 50/50 vortex. Batgirls did more damage in the corner where LF does more midscreen. Then there's differences like Batgirl had a teleport and Butcher has a 6f Cmd grab. Not exactly the same, but similarities are very strong bs and very strong punishment for "guessing" wrong anywhere on the screen. If the low option was safe he'd be Stupid Tier.

The more people play Killer the more I'm hearing how strong it is. The weakest of the 3 against zoning, but most characters keepaway isn't that great as it is, and at worst his EX Low on a read gets him in. Everyone complained about safe 50/50's for almost a year, but Killer has them that lead to hella damage and I've barely heard a peep. What changed? These are worse because they are safe on block and easily hit confirmable on hit. On top of all that the character has great WUs, great range, godlike corner carry, mixup options of all types, great almost everything.

When it's all settled I think LF will be the best because his tools are built to last. Broken Bo stuff likely will be removed, where as LF probably stays mostly the same. Tools are very easy to use, and give him too many risk/reward advantages.


I just feel like there's a lot of silliness with the DLC in general, but there also is in MKX. It's either acceptable across the board or needs to be adjusted across the board. CSZ is a strong character, possibly one of the best, but is he "broken" in the game of MKX we play? Doubt it. People should talk about all the characters if they have issues with it, not single out two variations that are good like they are some beyond broken characters but then say "clutch move by Bio" when he does a 55% 1 bar midscreen combo to win a match.

 

[RM Ree]

Majority of people crying don't even play the character! Lots of characters are death in the corner, this isn't a new thing. GM Sub Zero is a nightmare too, but no ones crying for nerfs there. I pray that NRS lets this thing play out before they make any rash decisions. CSZ in the corner is not a death sentence.

GM did get nerfed. Shatter combos now deal ~3% less damage.

 

[_xFriction]

lets just remove corners from the game

 

[WakeUp DP]

lets just remove corners from the game

lol. Keep corner but make stages a bit larger, that way one combo doesn't corner to corner carry you...

 

[Reauxbot]

MvC3 is a special case of a game where most high level play consists of five seconds of footsies and then a round's over. An entire game based upon silly, ridiculous flash isn't exactly the best reference for defense of HTBs because this game doesn't even have half a cast that enjoys nonsense like this.

What? Lol I wasn't using it to defend HTBs man. I was saying why I'm used to playing with and against dirt sir. It was one of my more main fighting games so that came out first. Sorry for that the confusion. I know MvC3 is its own little planet of fuckery. So I wouldn't actually use it in a comparison to another game.
More of why I'm used to playing with dirt and not trying to complain about it.

 

[SaSSolino]

csz's bombs becoming a mid is actually a good idea considering how good his neutral already is. his divekick should also be a mid, he doesn't need the slide/divekick mindgame. his b2 is insanely strong, but I don't think it needs normalizations if bombs and divekick become mids.

 

[Shaikhuzzaman]

csz's bombs becoming a mid is actually a good idea considering how good his neutral already is. his divekick should be a mid, he doesn't need the slide/divekick mindgame. his b2 is insanely strong, but I don't think it needs normalizations if bombs and divekick become mids.

They should add a dislike button

 

[SaltShaker]

csz's bombs becoming a mid is actually a good idea considering how good his neutral already is. his divekick should be a mid, he doesn't need the slide/divekick mindgame. his b2 is insanely strong, but I don't think it needs normalizations if bombs and divekick become mids.

I agree. He should be nerfed to the ground one week after release.

 

[babalook]

They should make his f4 a high too. In all seriousness though, I think I would exchange overhead dk for f1 being a mid.

 

[Shaikhuzzaman]

They should make his f4 a high too. In all seriousness though, I think I would exchange overhead dk for f1 being a mid.

Where's the logic in that statement 'I think the should remove his F4 mid. On to other matters I think they should make his f1 mid giving him one of the godliest mids in the game'

 

[babalook]

Where's the logic in that statement 'I think the should remove his F4 mid. On to other matters I think they should make his f1 mid giving him one of the godliest mids in the game'

I was clearly joking about the first one -_- and the second was a hypothetical suggestion

 

[Shaikhuzzaman]

I was clearly joking about the first one -_-

Oh sorry you didn't quote anyone so I just thought you were making a bold statement

 

[RM Ree]

Trade dive kick OH for f1 being a mid? I'd take that change in a heartbeat. Also, how is s21 first hit high, second hit mid?

 

[Israel]

lets just remove corners from the game

GOLDEN !
Lol !

 

[ZigZag]

Pretty sure 1112 still has a few more frames of hit advantage than F2....
and DK got set the way it was supposed to be making it pretty risky as an option.

 

[babalook]

Pretty sure 1112 still has a few more frames of hit advantage than F2....
and DK got set the way it was supposed to be making it pretty risky as an option.

1112 might have more advantage when hitting a grounded opponent but not on an airborne opponent

 

[MadeOfMetal]

csz's bombs becoming a mid is actually a good idea considering how good his neutral already is. his divekick should be a mid, he doesn't need the slide/divekick mindgame. his b2 is insanely strong, but I don't think it needs normalizations if bombs and divekick become mids.

is people really still talking about mids, lol. cyrax bombs and CSZ bombs are not gonna be mids.


once his reset is gone he is normalized with the cast

his bombs already suck, they have half the hitbox as MK9
they are low and not unblcokable.

just watch Mustards stream, and see how easy people are getting past his zoning.

they don't respect it at all, they just run past and light him up.

its like there was a bomb there , umm , didn't notice i was comboing him on that 73 frames of recovery.

bombs mid GTFO of here

you realize that CSZ effects Cyrax bombs.. and CSZ is already normalized, all you have to do is block that and full combo punish him.

yes he can still corner HTB you! so don't get bodied into the corner.

 

[SaSSolino]

is people really still talking about mids, lol. cyrax bombs and CSZ bombs are not gonna be mids.


once his reset is gone he is normalized with the cast

his bombs already suck, they have half the hitbox as MK9
they are low and not unblcokable.

just watch Mustards stream, and see how easy people are getting past his zoning.

they don't respect it at all, they just run past and light him up.

its like there was a bomb there , umm , didn't notice i was comboing him on that 73 frames of recovery.

bombs mid GTFO of here

you realize that CSZ effects Cyrax bombs.. and CSZ is already normalized, all you have to do is block that and full combo punish him.

yes he can still corner HTB you! so don't get bodied into the corner.

I watch mustard's stream and if bomb's only use is HTBs, they might as well be useless.

to be completely honest, I'd make cyrax bombs unblockables again, but with some changes on when he can throw them and when he can't (MK9 like). CSZ already has a really good neutral with bombs this bad and having them mid wouldn't even affect that, it would just remove HTBs, witch are stupid.

I agree. He should be nerfed to the ground one week after release.

as I said before, having mid bombs would only remove htbs, and having mid divekick would be... normal? that wouldn't kill CSZ.

 

[MadeOfMetal]

I watch mustard's stream and if bomb's only use is HTBs, they might as well be useless.

to be completely honest, I'd make cyrax bombs unblockables again, but with some changes on when he can throw them and when he can't (MK9 like). CSZ already has a really good neutral with bombs this bad and having them mid wouldn't even affect that, it would just remove HTBs, witch are stupid.




as I said before, having mid bombs would only remove htbs, and having mid divekick would be... normal? that wouldn't kill CSZ.

looks to me like HTB's are here to stay.


on the hotfix they added another one

the way i look at it is you can either Adapt or play another game, i can understand that resets have no place, since he is the only one with them. and they nerfed Quans meterless loop.

argo the game designer deemed it unfair so i roll along with it. but if they have ignored us for the games length on HTB's and added another one on the latest Hotfix, obviously thats a sign to embrace them or move along to another game.


there are many things i dont agree with on this game, unreactible 50/50's, vortexes, Cancel pressure frame traps, HTB's and so on. but that won't stop me from adapting and learning how to deal with them better.

sonic fox doesn't seem to have a problem with it. all the players have all these tools to use on him that are considered broken to some, but he still prevails. must be some way to defend them i guess.



and to the bombs.. if there bad why not make them worse? where does that logic come from?

 

[SaltShaker]

as I said before, having mid bombs would only remove htbs, and having mid divekick would be... normal? that wouldn't kill CSZ.

DiveKick is already nerfed to be unsafe on block, as it should be. Other Divekicks either KD or lead to full combo. That's what is "normal". CSZ is 7% on hit and leads to nothing outside the corner because no one with any sense will stand there, watch you low bomb, and eat a DK midscreen without setting it up. But to you, you want it to be an unsafe no combo DK that does 7% and gives barely any adv? It would be practically useless.


CSZ does not have a "great neutral" as you keep saying. Great character, but getting low profiled to death and outpoked is his glaring weakness. The mixup of low bomb/DK midscreen is basically his only good one that has to be setup so it isn't done every round. You want to remove it, and then make low Bombs mid to remove HTB's, and have him with no way to open you up, be very unsafe, no on block frame pressure options, and minimal damage?



Your suggestions are basically "I'd like CSZ nerfed to death while half the roster can do 50% combos, frame traps of death, and HTB's still".

 

[MadeOfMetal]

DiveKick is already nerfed to be unsafe on block, as it should be. Other Divekicks either KD or lead to full combo. That's what is "normal". CSZ is 7% on hit and leads to nothing outside the corner because no one with any sense will stand there, watch you low bomb, and eat a DK midscreen without setting it up. But to you, you want it to be an unsafe no combo DK that does 7% and gives barely any adv? It would be practically useless.


CSZ does not have a "great neutral" as you keep saying. Great character, but getting low profiled to death and outpoked is his glaring weakness. The mixup of low bomb/DK midscreen is basically his only good one that has to be setup so it isn't done every round. You want to remove it, and then make low Bombs mid to remove HTB's, and have him with no way to open you up, be very unsafe, no on block frame pressure options, and minimal damage?



Your suggestions are basically "I'd like CSZ nerfed to death while half the roster can do 50% combos, frame traps of death, and HTB's still".

that is the gist of what i gathered from his posts.

and yeah i laughed when he said CSZ has a great neutral... lowl.

all triborgs have horrible neutral the best one is Smoke, cuz he has quite a few mids, but they are pretty slow on startup, so they get D1'ed

and lets not forget triborgs d1 gets low profiled

 

[RM Ree]

I watch mustard's stream and if bomb's only use is HTBs, they might as well be useless.

to be completely honest, I'd make cyrax bombs unblockables again, but with some changes on when he can throw them and when he can't (MK9 like). CSZ already has a really good neutral with bombs this bad and having them mid wouldn't even affect that, it would just remove HTBs, witch are stupid.

as I said before, having mid bombs would only remove htbs, and having mid divekick would be... normal? that wouldn't kill CSZ.

The bombs lend to a strong zoning game for CSZ when combined with ice ball, f2 and drone summons. The fact that they're low makes little difference here, but all the difference when it comes his mix ups. No ones mentioned it, but they're all fuzzy guarded with relative ease. At the highest level, low bomb in set ups is the only reliable way he can get damage.

Dive kick is a glorified jumping attack that deals an unimpressive 7%, and lands CSZ in a neutral distance that he doesn't particularly accel at. On block, it's highly punishable by the entire cast, and best used as a mobility tool. If you're getting hit by this so much that it concerns you, you're playing bad footsies and getting punished... For 7%, or just not paying attention and getting hit OH. It's role in HTB's is dangerous, but only when CSZ reads your wake-up AND has a set-up already in place.

The HTB you and others like you are so afraid of has been reduced to a 50/50 guessing game in the form of "will the opponent tech or delayed wake-up," instead of the traditional low/OH. Blocking it successfully, which is not difficult if you've seen the technique, results in a punish or, at best, a dangerous position for CSZ. If you haven't noticed yet, armored wake-ups beat the set-up clean. Also, the execution needed to set this up effectively has gone way up while the damage has gone way down.

This character deserves some good tools after the last game. If he's top tier, so be it. But he's by no means broken. He has as much right to be as good as say D'Vorah or Kung Lao.

 

[Shaikhuzzaman]

I watch mustard's stream and if bomb's only use is HTBs, they might as well be useless.

to be completely honest, I'd make cyrax bombs unblockables again, but with some changes on when he can throw them and when he can't (MK9 like). CSZ already has a really good neutral with bombs this bad and having them mid wouldn't even affect that, it would just remove HTBs, witch are stupid.




as I said before, having mid bombs would only remove htbs, and having mid divekick would be... normal? that wouldn't kill CSZ.

You haven't practiced much/at all with the character have you. You dont really seem to have any knowledge about him.

 

[Invincible Salads]

1112 does have enough advantage to get a bomb out on knockdown safely, just you have to be careful about following up with a mixup because u can be blown up, blocking is a safe bet. so at the very least its useable in the corner.

im thinking he really shouldnt lose his low bombs or dive kicks....it'd really screw with his game plan if it did. Also if you really want to make people respect cyber subs neutral game, your gonna have to use f4~ice beam, it'll open up f43 as an option since f4 jails into icebeam