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General/Other - Johnny Cage Johnny Cage General Discussion Thread

smokey

EX Ovi should launch
Buffing cage is a crazy risk, and i still dont think he needs anything but some hitbox love, as i love to express. I cba to keep on being this militant if you guys are gonna just come up with buff-ideas every couple of days, its obviously a huge topic and should be discussed. In my opinion I dont think anyone has the capability to analyse cage in any meaningful way until he is being played near flawlessly. My thoughts on the matter so i dont just come across being whiny all time, this is something im pretty strongly opinionated on and am happy to put people down for requesting cage be buffed when i know for a fact you need to level up because everyone does. Buffs dont help that they just avoid the point and let lesser skilled players get more for their money without having to develop themselves to do so. When Liu Kang flame fist got its silly buffs, this was the best example i can give as i learned 1 blockstring and combo and took games from a very strong day 1 liu kang main in the mirror.

Were not at a point where hes being played at the highest level, and it takes a higher amount of skill and thought just to be able to compete with less-technical top tiers, so he can seem like hes lacking something. Stamina, meter and resource management are all a lot more important for cage than most of the top tiers, as is execution and to some extent matchup specific knowledge (knowing your whiffs and who can get out of your frames). Cage is a character that repeatedly forces your opponent to play your game from a disadvantageous position, and has opportunities to condition you into slaughtering yourself or respecting too much and getting thrown or losing chances to get back to neutral. He doesnt have high/low mixups so your opponent doesnt lose 40% at a time from something as simple as blocking low or high after a jump in punch, so every single touch counts on hit or block, and until someone can capitalise on every single situation properly and safely with Cage I just dont think buffs are the way forward. Out of all the not-top-tiers cage is the only one that needs to be played to a stupidly high calibre to further develop, so until we get there i see no buffs that would make a difference without coming close to breaking him.
 

Wigy

There it is...
Buffing cage is a crazy risk, and i still dont think he needs anything but some hitbox love, as i love to express. I cba to keep on being this militant if you guys are gonna just come up with buff-ideas every couple of days, its obviously a huge topic and should be discussed. In my opinion I dont think anyone has the capability to analyse cage in any meaningful way until he is being played near flawlessly. My thoughts on the matter so i dont just come across being whiny all time, this is something im pretty strongly opinionated on and am happy to put people down for requesting cage be buffed when i know for a fact you need to level up because everyone does. Buffs dont help that they just avoid the point and let lesser skilled players get more for their money without having to develop themselves to do so. When Liu Kang flame fist got its silly buffs, this was the best example i can give as i learned 1 blockstring and combo and took games from a very strong day 1 liu kang main in the mirror.

Were not at a point where hes being played at the highest level, and it takes a higher amount of skill and thought just to be able to compete with less-technical top tiers, so he can seem like hes lacking something. Stamina, meter and resource management are all a lot more important for cage than most of the top tiers, as is execution and to some extent matchup specific knowledge (knowing your whiffs and who can get out of your frames). Cage is a character that repeatedly forces your opponent to play your game from a disadvantageous position, and has opportunities to condition you into slaughtering yourself or respecting too much and getting thrown or losing chances to get back to neutral. He doesnt have high/low mixups so your opponent doesnt lose 40% at a time from something as simple as blocking low or high after a jump in punch, so every single touch counts on hit or block, and until someone can capitalise on every single situation properly and safely with Cage I just dont think buffs are the way forward. Out of all the not-top-tiers cage is the only one that needs to be played to a stupidly high calibre to further develop, so until we get there i see no buffs that would make a difference without coming close to breaking him.
Completely agree with you but characters are very rarely played at the highest level so we'll be waiting well after the game stops being supported if we do that.

On paper, and from results jc is lacking comparitively. I think hes good and he COULD win a tournement but is just lacking that wow factor which is why like no high level player use him.

I tbink there is definite changes which could be made that wouldn't be OP but as you've said, at this point we have to stop asking for buffs and let things ride out
 

ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
The "dont' ask for buffs, level up" argument can be valid in some cases, but not in Johnny's case, especially Fisticuffs.
Sometimes a character is so limited that even mastering him you are at disadvantage in too many matchups. And then buffs are a must.

Also, the fact that some people still don't know well the JC matchup means nothing. Everyone eventually will learn it and exploit the many limitations Cage has. That's why he needs help. Not only the hitbox issues (which should have been gone long time ago).
 

Wigy

There it is...
The "dont' ask for buffs, level up" argument can be valid in some cases, but not in Johnny's case, especially Fisticuffs.
Sometimes a character is so limited that even mastering him you are at disadvantage in too many matchups. And then buffs are a must.
The main thing i see is that on paper hes not exactly amazing, and in tournament he isn't placing.

He has some good tools but no real dirt, so many characters do what he does but better.

Fisticuffs is pointless. Backdashed every time, in corner armour or poking is easy on any character.
 

ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
The main thing i see is that on paper hes not exactly amazing, and in tournament he isn't placing.

He has some good tools but no real dirt, so many characters do what he does but better.

Fisticuffs is pointless. Backdashed every time, in corner armour or poking is easy on any character.
That's it. You can blow up with him people who don't know the matchup, but this happens with every character.

He is limited in too many ways, especially FC. His 113 (needed for his low/overhead mixup) needs ex forceball to be safe. His speedbag is pokeable by any character even with a bad reaction, his midscreen meterless damage is very low, bad ji, bad njp, bad antiair... He shines at nothing right now.
Nrs sold him as the pressure and chip damage character, and for example flame fist is over him at these fields...
 
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Killer Xinok

"Online is your forte!" - A Wise Man, 2015
I think what Stunt double and fistcuffs need, is that the mimic, and the fistbump moves be cancelable on backdash and armored moves.. This would create a strong mind game in the fights.. But we can't dream so high.. hahah
(not asking for this buff)
 

IrishMantis

Most humble shit talker ever!!!
Man what I love about stunt double is how non linear he is, especially his pressure if you have 2 shadows loaded up so many possibilities with his up shadow being +13 and his up shadow being +4 (I think)

Now if only 114 hit all the time his pressure be complete
 

Name v.5.0

Iowa's Finest.
I think what Stunt double and fistcuffs need, is that the mimic, and the fistbump moves be cancelable on backdash and armored moves.. This would create a strong mind game in the fights.. But we can't dream so high.. hahah
(not asking for this buff)
Imagine run canceling the mimic call and it's like +5. That would be fantastic. I'm not even sure this would make him broken. To me it just allows him to safely get his clones out.
 

Da Tac0

GT: C88 Taco
What's the best things to throw in order after a blocked 11. Because I feel like I get countered when I go 113 every time. Should I use a clone to make it safe? I know it's a very hard question to answer since its situational. I also feel like I get countered when I do f24 not because they blocked but because of the start up. Could it be because I'm in putting it too slow?
 

Name v.5.0

Iowa's Finest.
What's the best things to throw in order after a blocked 11. Because I feel like I get countered when I go 113 every time. Should I use a clone to make it safe? I know it's a very hard question to answer since its situational. I also feel like I get countered when I do f24 not because they blocked but because of the start up. Could it be because I'm in putting it too slow?
First off, in Stunt Double you really shouldn't be throwing out 113 without a clone to cover your ass. Even then they can armor through whatever comes after 113. There's a gap. It has to be used a bit sparingly.

There's no mixup when you do 11 followed by either a 3, or F24. It's super easy to block, even online. You still have to threaten with those options though.

After 11, I personally use several options:

113
F24
D4
D3
EX Rising Shadow Uppercut
Throw
12 (usually followed by D3, D1, or throw)
Block. (Some opponents think they know the gaps a little too well and try to fire off an armor move right after 11. Block that and make them eat shit.)

You gotta freestyle it sometimes. Try each option and see where it takes you.
 

HuttonMD

ADM Riddles
I've been playing a-list and I've finally started getting the skrc down but I feel like im either not doing it fast enough or maybe not even right at all so if anyone on xbone who has a good grasp on the rc could add me and help me out to see if I'm doing it right. My gt is xXxR1ddleMeTh1s
 

rafaw

#YouSuck
I've been playing a-list and I've finally started getting the skrc down but I feel like im either not doing it fast enough or maybe not even right at all so if anyone on xbone who has a good grasp on the rc could add me and help me out to see if I'm doing it right. My gt is xXxR1ddleMeTh1s
When you start to do rcs normaly you do it a bit slow, so it leaves gaps on the pressure that can be armored/poked depending on how slow the rcs are.
Once you get good with cancels you should do those rc with no gaps at all: f3rc(~+11), f2skrc(+15),114skrc(+20),4skrc(~+25).
Im not sure about 333skrc but if you do it perfect might be a lot + to
 

HuttonMD

ADM Riddles
Yea I def can tell I'm doing them just a little to slow. The hardest one for me was trying the 113 skrc the timing seemed tighter but I really need to start getting them down consistently during matches.

In the middle of the fight I sometimes mess up the timing or let go and the shadow kick comes out. Practice is easy but applying it to a real match has been tough for me.

One last question is flip kick cancel + as well? Because sometimes I go for f3 charged flip kick rc f3 np. So since I charge the flip kick if f3 is blocked I either backdash or try to cancel it into more pressure
 

rafaw

#YouSuck
Yea I def can tell I'm doing them just a little to slow. The hardest one for me was trying the 113 skrc the timing seemed tighter but I really need to start getting them down consistently during matches.

In the middle of the fight I sometimes mess up the timing or let go and the shadow kick comes out. Practice is easy but applying it to a real match has been tough for me.

One last question is flip kick cancel + as well? Because sometimes I go for f3 charged flip kick rc f3 np. So since I charge the flip kick if f3 is blocked I either backdash or try to cancel it into more pressure
Never cancel in flip kick if you want to pressure, always shadow kick, its way faster!
 

Da Tac0

GT: C88 Taco
It's it common for online players to use f24 d1 f3? Cause I can't hit that d1 for shit due to the slight delay.
 

HuttonMD

ADM Riddles
Yea it took me a little bit but I can hit that bnb online pretty consistently. Sometimes I wish np was db3 instead of bd3 it would flow smoother
 

Name v.5.0

Iowa's Finest.
It's it common for online players to use f24 d1 f3? Cause I can't hit that d1 for shit due to the slight delay.
That's just something you gotta work on. There is no other option because of Johnny shitty combo design. 21% for a stupid combo with no other options cuz online....God damnit.

Offline I can easily do F24, D1, 1, run cancel, 12, F3~DB3. 25%. Respectable for meterless damage and a restand.
 

Da Tac0

GT: C88 Taco
Idk how it is on ps4 but no one wants to do online practice mode just matches. I get pretty frustrated when I take a loss due to dropping a combo with a new Character. Though I find myself winning a lot with Johnny even though I can't roll that combo. It is what it is. If anyone is down to pratice let me know. My GT is the same as my username