General/Other - Johnny Cage Johnny Cage General Discussion Thread

[ismael4790]

Your doing a dashrc on the second cancel, if you do just the rc you start runing without lose any stamina, but if you do a dash rc it will consume a bit of stamina for the dash and the run wont come out bc you will not have a full bar of stamina.
Probably your doing f,f,block instead of f,f+block or f+block,f. I used to do it all the time.

The rule is: if you have more than a bar of stamina after the first cancel, you can do another one.

I'll try that, i'm sure this is my problem. Will have to learn cancels again
Didn't know the forward dash consumed stamina in the process.

 

[smokey]

Double cancel combos are pretty hype to me . Watch this cool video :

I don't downplay or have too many struggles...I win most of the time against almost anyone I've met. That said, nobody punishes my random whiffs or truly exploits Cage weaknesses. It's been said a million times, the character needs fixes and maybe some buffs.

On top of the hitbox fixes I would like better frames on block for Flipkick, Ex Flipkick, 113, f34. Faster S1, better hitbox on d2, jump in punch, and njp. That's it for me. He would still be much weaker than the top tiers, but would be a decent mid.

Edit: Fisticuff specific buffs too.

*Smokey, do you play on PS4 EU?

I can play ps4 eu if im at a mates, you want some games some time? PM me tonight i should be able to play at some point if connection allows it.
In my opinion cage is in a really good spot, A list especially but Stunt double is more than fine. Fisticuffs is less braindead after the patchng but offers little in comparison so its underwhelming.
As far as your buffs, they are just overkill for the sake of it, you dont get any new strategies or tech to help him, so whats the point?
You dont use f34 in many situations except perhaps if you whiff the f3 and someones itching to punish, or you dropped shadowkick input. 90% of time f3 is solely a whiff punisher or used to start a blockstring when running in, having the second hit cancellable would mean nothing except you get maybe a bit extra chip in a blockstring, and its already very good for what it does. I dont see a need to change anything to do with his f3 at all.

Flip kicking and EX flip kicking on block is suicide, its used if you have sick hitconfirms or want to challenge someone with a cheese anti air, otherwise you have no reason to even use the move. Having better frames is pointless, unless it becomes really safe on block so you can EX nut after it or has startup+cancel frames better than SK then theres still no need to use it. Any string that you could flipkick on the end of you would be in a better situation on hit and block if you didnt flipkick at all, and even better if you did a cancel or EX fb. (113 excluded because you cant make it safe without SKRC. f24 flipkick is hard to hitconfirm but arguable in the corner)

113 is alright how it is, i mean you can armour out of all the followups on block except a SKRC which is +. 1 and 11 are both good barring hitbox issues, they are good to stagger, you can mixup with you f2 which is safe. It might not hit seasoned players, but it does give them a reason to spend their bar if they know you arent being properly safe, which in A list you can read. If they dont know the matchup and are respecting stuff off 113 then you can bully them. People waiting for the 3 or f2 after 11 are open to throws and more block pressure.

Hitboxes need fixing , thats not cage specific a ton of characters have the same problems, and he could use a 7 frame move. Other than that its more about knowing what button to push when, if your jump ins and NJP and stuff are whiffing thats on you. Also if cages d2 gets better, the whole cast needs to. Anti airing is not a real thing anymore.

 

[smokey]

I'll try that, i'm sure this is my problem. Will have to learn cancels again
Didn't know the forward dash consumed stamina in the process.

You have to be a bit tighter if you want the double cancels. As a rule you need to avoid doing a dash into run cancel at all because it kills your stamina game and ruins your pressure and combos.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Do you guys really struggle with cage or just downplaying? Cage doesnt need buffs to be mid tier, hes already top end of mid tier and hasnt got bad matchups against most of the "top 10". Serious question, what do you guys struggle with that you think making f34 cancellable will fix?

2 Things...and they arent really a struggle, it'd just be nice. ( and remember I'm talking about SDJC)

Certain punishes in this game require F3. Sometimes weird block stun and having only 13 frames to punish make it very difficult to squeak in safely. I love fucking up F3~Nutcracker when I go to punish and then eat full combo.

Mostly though, I want to be able to use F3 for something other than punishing and pressure when I have clones. You never catch anyone off guard in the footsies game with F2. With F34 I could hit confirm and nutpunch. Not like I'm going to yolo F3~NP. We'd actually get a decent forward advancing mid. Dont you A-List guys use F3~SKRC to get in all the time? And if you confirm the F3 hitting while you're doing SKRC, cant you go straight into combo? If so, boy, that'd be nice.

What the fuck is the point of F34 for SD and Fisty anyway? It's pointless.

 

[rafaw]

I'll try that, i'm sure this is my problem. Will have to learn cancels again
Didn't know the forward dash consumed stamina in the process.

Foward dash alone dont consume stamina, but if you charge sk and cancel it into dash it does.

 

[smokey]

2 Things...and they arent really a struggle, it'd just be nice. ( and remember I'm talking about SDJC)

Certain punishes in this game require F3. Sometimes weird block stun and having only 13 frames to punish make it very difficult to squeak in safely. I love fucking up F3~Nutcracker when I go to punish and then eat full combo.

Mostly though, I want to be able to use F3 for something other than punishing and pressure when I have clones. You never catch anyone off guard in the footsies game with F2. With F34 I could hit confirm and nutpunch. Not like I'm going to yolo F3~NP. We'd actually get a decent forward advancing mid. Dont you A-List guys use F3~SKRC to get in all the time?

What the fuck is the point of F34 for SD and Fisty anyway? It's pointless.

If you fuck up f3 punish then you need to go training mode, not cry for buffs. Thats on you man.
Also you cant use moves the way you want to if they dont actually serve that purpose. I want to use cages d1 as a full screen unblockable but its not working out for me, so instead i'll be poking with it. Judge the moves based on their properties and how they work, not how you want them to work dude. Coupled with d4 and f2 you can definitely catch people off guard with f3 in the footsies game, with clones up you get a frame trap off it. If you want a safe forward advancing mid use f24 or f244, run cancelling into them you the range you need. F34 knockdown is also not too bad, takes them to the corner and gives you space to try get mimic out or chip buff in fisty. -8 isnt a death sentence either half the cast dont get anything substantial here and if you know that they will punish it then you just dont use it.

 

[Name v.5.0]

If you fuck up f3 punish then you need to go training mode, not cry for buffs. Thats on you man.
Also you cant use moves the way you want to if they dont actually serve that purpose. I want to use cages d1 as a full screen unblockable but its not working out for me, so instead i'll be poking with it. Judge the moves based on their properties and how they work, not how you want them to work dude. Coupled with d4 and f2 you can definitely catch people off guard with f3 in the footsies game, with clones up you get a frame trap off it. If you want a safe forward advancing mid use f24 or f244, run cancelling into them you the range you need. F34 knockdown is also not too bad, takes them to the corner and gives you space to try get mimic out or chip buff in fisty. -8 isnt a death sentence either half the cast dont get anything substantial here and if you know that they will punish it then you just dont use it.

Pull back the reigns there chief. No one was crying out for buffs...someone posted, "What would you like for Johnny" and I answered that question. I never went "crying for buffs". This is how this bullshit spreads. I think I even used the word "hypothetically" when I posted about F34.

Being mostly an online warrior (hoping to get back out to a tournament in a year) these days, practice mode means sweet fuck all when Kotal is -14 after EX Overhead sword, pushes back and has funky block stun. Add in a little lag and sometimes you fuck it up. That's just one example. Day dreaming about a cancellable F34 isnt that big of a deal.

I also play Johnny and use D4 to help me F2. Yes it works when you have a clone up, but it would be "nice", if I could use F3 without clones.

YOU'RE KILLING MY DREAMS SMOKEY! KILLING THEM DEAD!

 

[Asodimazze]

Your doing a dashrc on the second cancel, if you do just the rc you start runing without lose any stamina, but if you do a dash rc it will consume a bit of stamina for the dash and the run wont come out bc you will not have a full bar of stamina.
Probably your doing f,f,block instead of f,f+block or f+block,f. I used to do it all the time.

The rule is: if you have more than a bar of stamina after the first cancel, you can do another one.

Are you sure? Normally to do 2 run cancels in a row I have to be extremely fast and not consume more than 60% of a bar for the first one....If I consume more, the second one doesn't come out no matter what.

Looks like to just cancel the move you consume a bit of stamina, doesn't matter if you run instantly or not....can you show me how to do the second run cancel in combo or pressure when you are close to depleting one bar?

@smokey I'm not sure about playing this evening, I might not be online.
if you can tell your mate to add me we'll play soon. my id is asodimazze

 

[smokey]

Pull back the reigns there chief. No one was crying out for buffs...someone posted, "What would you like for Johnny" and I answered that question. I never went "crying for buffs". This is how this bullshit spreads. I think I even used the word "hypothetically" when I posted about F34.

Being mostly an online warrior (hoping to get back out to a tournament in a year) these days, practice mode means sweet fuck all when Kotal is -14 after EX Overhead sword, pushes back and has funky block stun. Add in a little lag and sometimes you fuck it up. That's just one example. Day dreaming about a cancellable F34 isnt that big of a deal.

I also play Johnny and use D4 to help me F2. Yes it works when you have a clone up, but it would be "nice", if I could use F3 without clones.

YOU'RE KILLING MY DREAMS SMOKEY! KILLING THEM DEAD!

Stop dreaming then man. Its a pain in the ass thinking how great cage could be if we got all the buffs in the world, but at the same time we are like 3 months in, which is nothing. I still have matchups to learn the secrets of, many characters have stuff that hasnt even been discovered yet. Theres DLC characters out who havent even played in tournaments, variations nobody plays. We have tons to play with, why is the common trend all to do with hypothetical buffs which we could get? Its a hot talking point for everyone on this forum and I just cant see why. Cage is fucking awesome and anyone playing him should be able to see straight away that hes no low tier, but hard to play optimally. Im by no means under the impression that cage is the best in the game or close to it, but a lot of people here make out hes not even playable in his current state and that is a joke.

 

[HuttonMD]

So for helping out JC's anti air do you all think if they made f4 faster that would help? Ive been trying to make it work and it does sometimes but it kinda slow

 

[IrishMantis]

simply they just played johnny so bad is dis game, a-list is his only savior

Nah I'm rocking SD since week 2 off the game
And I'm doing fine

 

[ismael4790]

Are you sure? Normally to do 2 run cancels in a row I have to be extremely fast and not consume more than 60% of a bar for the first one....If I consume more, the second one doesn't come out no matter what.

Looks like to just cancel the move you consume a bit of stamina, doesn't matter if you run instantly or not....can you show me how to do the second run cancel in combo or pressure when you are close to depleting one bar?

It's strange, because i can get the 333~SKRC,F24~SKRC,F24 quite consistently, but i have problems with any other string involving two cancels it it does not contain f24.
Canceling into F2 cost less stamina?

 

[rafaw]

It's strange, because i can get the 333~SKRC,F24~SKRC,F24 quite consistently, but i have problems with any other string involving two cancels it it does not contain f24.
Canceling into F2 cost less stamina?

Same stamina consume for whatever cancel, your probably canceling f2 faster so it alows you to do another rc.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Stop dreaming then man. Its a pain in the ass thinking how great cage could be if we got all the buffs in the world, but at the same time we are like 3 months in, which is nothing. I still have matchups to learn the secrets of, many characters have stuff that hasnt even been discovered yet. Theres DLC characters out who havent even played in tournaments, variations nobody plays. We have tons to play with, why is the common trend all to do with hypothetical buffs which we could get? Its a hot talking point for everyone on this forum and I just cant see why. Cage is fucking awesome and anyone playing him should be able to see straight away that hes no low tier, but hard to play optimally. Im by no means under the impression that cage is the best in the game or close to it, but a lot of people here make out hes not even playable in his current state and that is a joke.

Pretty sure I can learn him, get better, discover, figure out MU's and still dream. Just happy there's ANY conversation going on in the JC forums.

 

[Kompetitor]

Do you guys really struggle with cage or just downplaying? Cage doesnt need buffs to be mid tier, hes already top end of mid tier and hasnt got bad matchups against most of the "top 10". Serious question, what do you guys struggle with that you think making f34 cancellable will fix?

I just think he needs hitbox fixes, he has a good amount of moves that whiff when they shouldnt, otherwise i think he is a great character.

 

[Wigy]

In A-List, cage has an advancing safe mid, f3 then shadowkick run cancel. He does need an anti air badly, shouldnt have to spend a bar when people wanna jump all day. I want MK9 Johnny's standing 1 again

Yeah i meant stunt double

 

[Kompetitor]

The only real problem of JC imo is this hitbox shit, 114 should be a main tool for him.
He got some more problems but nothing that will push him down so hard, of cource top tiers are wayyy easier to play.
I would love to see a buff for exflip kick to combo tho , and make b2 full charge unblockable like mk9 too

B2 is useless in this game when they can just block it, and i wish flipkick was like mk9, when he would move forward with it so it was a good wake up no meter

 

[Asodimazze]

It's also kinda hard to get two run cancels in a row because the timing changes if the opponent gets hit or blocks: it happens to use more stamina for the cancel if you didn't expect the move to hit (the cancel starts earlier in that scenario).

When not sure about that (for example after doing 113 SKRC) I go for something from which you can combo with dash cancel, like 12

 

[Predannok]

i was getting pissed people armoring more follow up 11 after f3 run cancel if i didnt do it frame perfectly, so i went to the lab to do f34 cancel faster and found that 12 after a Run cancel will break armored reversals that are slower than 12 frames, so shinnok (will trade),Balanced Kenshi, d'vroah, Erron black (f3), Quan chi, Tremor for example will just throw a bar away.

 

[smokey]

i was getting pissed people armoring more follow up 11 after f3 run cancel if i didnt do it frame perfectly, so i went to the lab to do f34 cancel faster and found that 12 after a Run cancel will break armored reversals that are slower than 12 frames, so shinnok (will trade),Balanced Kenshi, d'vroah, Erron black (f3), Quan chi, Tremor for example will just throw a bar away.

1,1 second hit comes out in 9 frames, 1,2 second hit is 6 frames. Works a real treat as you can dash cancel out of 1,2 as well. Also works in Stunt double if people are in range for both hits after a clone shadowkick, good stuff!

 

[Predannok]

It's also kinda hard to get two run cancels in a row because the timing changes if the opponent gets hit or blocks: it happens to use more stamina for the cancel if you didn't expect the move to hit (the cancel starts earlier in that scenario).

When not sure about that (for example after doing 113 SKRC) I go for something from which you can combo with dash cancel, like 12

114 mb fireball after the first RC is a gud alternative that leavs u +4 at f3 range if they try to back dash a slight walk into f3 will catch them.

 

[Predannok]

1,1 second hit comes out in 9 frames, 1,2 second hit is 6 frames. Works a real treat as you can dash cancel out of 1,2 as well. Also works in Stunt double if people are in range for both hits after a clone shadowkick, good stuff!

Just tested on Raiden and he can't armor out neither; this is just like Jax's 12 i love it .

 

[smokey]

Just tested on Raiden and he can't armor out neither; this is just like Jax's 12 i love it .

If you do it while you are at enough frame advantage then you can assume that the first hit will connect during the first few frames of their armour startup, and the second hit 6~ frames later (not sure its 6 frames between hits, but the startup of 1,2 is 6 frames).

In theory (assuming the frame datas correct) you can create situations where it will break basically any armoured reversal that startup is minimum 7 frames. With perfect timing if your 1 hits on frame 1 (of their reversal) and the 2 hits on frame 7, it should break it or trade, but im not certain that the numbers are correct so dont hold me to it. Obviously if you are like +8 and you do s1, then they only have 1 frame to start a reversal...so it could be something worth testing

 

[kelevra]

For those who have problems with getting two runcancels out i might have a little tip.
Think about your Button Layout.
In my case i was only able to get 1 cancel out unless the cancel would be into 2/f2 because my Index finger and ring finger where "in use" holding down 4 and block.
That pretty much had my middle finger hovering over 2 so that was the only button i could effectively hit close to frame perfect.
After switching my layout my ring and middle fingers are used for 4 and block.
That enables me to hit every button i want in time with my Index because its pretty much hovering in between 1/2/3.
Might wanna give it a shot.
Only applies to stick players ofc.
In general you still want to let go before you hit your next input unless you want to get accidental x-rays when doing f3f3.

 

[Rodney Quillz]

I don't really understand the problem with the possibilities of f4 getting the mk9 b3 treatment or ex flip kick getting juggle properties in a list.

Buffs I would give fisticuffs -

Remove it from the game.