Video/Tutorial - Grandmaster Sub-Zero's Ice Clone doesn't work properly

[RM_NINfan101]

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Basically hitboxes used to never matter against clone because the active frames of clone would freeze those of the active move before it connected. Kinda weird but essentially it was always a highest priority tool that had it's risks and setups.

Due to this nerf, and I do believe character's hurtboxes need to be expanded to where the tip of the punch is where it should be, no more no less, it's caused issues for the clone. Yes, there are still ways you can use it. Yes, it's still viable to use... But now you get to see MKX, well... NRS's issues with animation and hitboxes/hurtboxes. This has been a thing since MK9, and I gotta say, pretty fucking tired of it. I never fathom as to why Cassie's standing 1 can just go right through klone because the hurtbox is on the character. Okay, don't make it the arm or anything that she's sticking out...

 

[DarthVado]

Basically hitboxes used to never matter against clone because the active frames of clone would freeze those of the active move before it connected. Kinda weird but essentially it was always a highest priority tool that had it's risks and setups.

Due to this nerf, and I do believe character's hurtboxes need to be expanded to where the tip of the punch is where it should be, no more no less, it's caused issues for the clone. Yes, there are still ways you can use it. Yes, it's still viable to use... But now you get to see MKX, well... NRS's issues with animation and hitboxes/hurtboxes. This has been a thing since MK9, and I gotta say, pretty fucking tired of it. I never fathom as to why Cassie's standing 1 can just go right through klone because the hurtbox is on the character. Okay, don't make it the arm or anything that she's sticking out...

I can agree with changing the hitboxes on these attacks, and that if NRS makes a change, they need to make sure either it fits in with the game, or they make changes accordingly. Regardless of Sub Zero, I think the change should be made to make footsies stronger in MKX, and that's kinda why I'm so adamant about it, because if NRS were to fix the situation like that, I believe everyone would be happier.

 

[buyacushun]

WOW this thread is amazing. . . . makes me want to bring up a couple of points.

1) Really wish someone at NRS had the job of paying attention to threads like these. Ones where thought and logic come into play to question the design of the game. This could all be settled if someone came in and said "We made clone have a hitbox *here*, The defender's attack in question hitbox and hurtbox are *here*. Heck give us a viewer.

2) How anything work in a previous version doesn't mean jack shit. Tekken sees moves changed all the time and it happens in other games. GG just got released with different moves in it. Doesn't mean complain cause it aint the same. Adapt to a change.

3) This very well seems like a box issue and should be easily fixed to catch things like raiden's fly. Does Raiden's fly go through clone if you are a jump distance away from hit? If it's only when you are next to clone than the hitbox for fly extends far enough past raiden to touch you before his smaller hurtbox. This could very well be the case for a move like fly that goes so fast and has the intention to catch a lot of things from far away. Projectiles will beat but how often do you see it trade with a normal?

Just a note. I'm not saying clone couldn't go with a hitboox change in favor of sub zero or anything but stating that's what needs to be done because YOU expect a certain outcome isn't right. Could very well just actually make better hit/hurt boxes on attacks overall and the problem could be solved. We all know NRS has a record for some wonky things.

 

[DarthVado]

WOW this thread is amazing. . . . makes me want to bring up a couple of points.

1) Really wish someone at NRS had the job of paying attention to threads like these. Ones where thought and logic come into play to question the design of the game. This could all be settled if someone came in and said "We made clone have a hitbox *here*, The defender's attack in question hitbox and hurtbox are *here*. Heck give us a viewer.

2) How anything work in a previous version doesn't mean jack shit. Tekken sees moves changed all the time and it happens in other games. GG just got released with different moves in it. Doesn't mean complain cause it aint the same. Adapt to a change.

3) This very well seems like a box issue and should be easily fixed to catch things like raiden's fly. Does Raiden's fly go through clone if you are a jump distance away from hit? If it's only when you are next to clone than the hitbox for fly extends far enough past raiden to touch you before his smaller hurtbox. This could very well be the case for a move like fly that goes so fast and has the intention to catch a lot of things from far away. Projectiles will beat but how often do you see it trade with a normal?

Just a note. I'm not saying clone couldn't go with a hitboox change in favor of sub zero or anything but stating that's what needs to be done because YOU expect a certain outcome isn't right. Could very well just actually make better hit/hurt boxes on attacks overall and the problem could be solved. We all know NRS has a record for some wonky things.

Thank you, I just want there to be a full discussion before people start demanding a change, and yeah, it would be nice if NRS came in and could just settle it, lol

 

[Zebster]

So some are saying that the clone is supposed to freeze when the opponents limb starts retracting, could you do a video proving that? Do a video where you have Sub do a clone, jump back and have Erron do d1, or 1 with the same spacing that was used in the initial video. If he gets frozen, then yes, what was said is true. However, if he doesn't get frozen then you can make the other obvious conclusion that Tom seems to refuse to believe: his hurtboxes on those normals do not extend as far as his hitboxes.

Also, do a segment where you show far his d3 and d4 have to be before he gets frozen.

Maybe then you guys can stop arguing about it so much.

 

[DarthVado]

So some are saying that the clone is supposed to freeze when the opponents limb starts retracting, could you do a video proving that? Do a video where you have Sub do a clone, jump back and have Erron do d1, or 1 with the same spacing that was used in the initial video. If he gets frozen, then yes, what was said is true. However, if he doesn't get frozen then you can make the other obvious conclusion that Tom seems to refuse to believe: his hurtboxes on those normals do not extend as far as his hitboxes.

Also, do a segment where you show far his d3 and d4 have to be before he gets frozen.

Maybe then you guys can stop arguing about it so much.

I did do a video on it, it's earlier in the thread, lol. Also I just caught up with Steven U, so I just wanted to compliment your avatar lol.

 

[Zebster]

I did do a video on it, it's earlier in the thread, lol. Also I just caught up with Steven U, so I just wanted to compliment your avatar lol.

It's a godlike show right?

Anyway, I really just want Tom to do it, cause he isn't gonna believe anyone but himself on this issue, it seems.

 

[DarthVado]

It's godlike right?

Anyway, I really just want Tom to do it, cause he isn't gonna believe anyone but himself on this issue, it seems.

Of course it is.

Tom already confirmed that I burn ice clones in my spare time, so that's good enough for him I guess, lol

 

[I GOT HANDS]

WOW this thread is amazing. . . . makes me want to bring up a couple of points.

1) Really wish someone at NRS had the job of paying attention to threads like these. Ones where thought and logic come into play to question the design of the game. This could all be settled if someone came in and said "We made clone have a hitbox *here*, The defender's attack in question hitbox and hurtbox are *here*. Heck give us a viewer.

He would have had to already shut down his account because Kenshi players would have flooded his inbox with balance whining for the first 2 months of the games release

 

[big j gleez]

This is a definite issue.... and I dont even use Sub Zero. Why would you be able to strike through the ice clone? makes no sense what so ever.

 

[DarthVado]

This is a definite issue.... and I dont even use Sub Zero. Why would you be able to strike through the ice clone? makes no sense what so ever.

This has been explained several times in this thread, please refer to those posts as to why that logic doesn't work.

 

[big j gleez]

This has been explained several times in this thread, please refer to those posts as to why that logic doesn't work.

The logic does work. You hit something that freezes you, you should get frozen. Period. I hate playing against grandmaster sub but you gotta call it like it is.

 

[DarthVado]

The logic does work. You hit something that freezes you, you should get frozen. Period. I hate playing against grandmaster sub but you gotta call it like it is.

No, that's not how design in terms of competitive fighting games work, if it means making a game more competitive, you may need to make alterations to hit boxes to make them do something other than what they look like.

And again, it's almost certainly an issue with the hit boxes of the limbs being put in the clone, not the clone itself, as proven by the fact that many attack cannot penetrate the clone, as shown in my video.

 

[DarthVado]

If Erron's leg does not fit, you must acquit.

 

[-narshkajke-]

The logic does work. You hit something that freezes you, you should get frozen. Period. I hate playing against grandmaster sub but you gotta call it like it is.

I know right, the logic is simple yet some people afraid of admitting it, because they hate the concept of not getting out of klone for free.

 

[DarthVado]

I know right, the logic is simple yet some people afraid of admitting it, because they hate the concept of not getting out of klone for free.

If I'm getting out for free, it's because you are letting me, which at that point I should get out. You have all the tools to keep people in, if you don't use them, it's on you, not NRS to fix that.

 

[-narshkajke-]

If I'm getting out for free, it's because you are letting me, which at that point I should get out. You have all the tools to keep people in, if you don't use them, it's on you, not NRS to fix that.

Why suddenly it's about you? I'm not asking NRS to fix my habit of not using tools or some sort, if that's what you're implying.
when people can bypassing clone with their pokes, by putting their limbs out to hit sub, and sub is in the position where his knee not even touching the klone, it meant that klone is not doing it's job properly, it's that simple.
I hope we're on the same page with that.

 

[DarthVado]

Why suddenly it's about you? I'm not asking NRS to fix my habit of not using tools or some sort, if that's what you're implying.
when people can bypassing clone with their pokes, by putting their limbs out to hit sub, and sub is in the position where his knee not even touching the klone, it meant that klone is not doing it's job properly, it's that simple.
I hope we're on the same page with that.

No, we aren't because you aren't taking into account what I said about the issue being character attack hit boxes, not the clone. You cannot do that with several attacks, only certain attacks make it through, which means the issue is not the clone, it's the attacks. What is also something that is completely derailing this conversation is the constant bringing up of "what ice clone is meant to do." or "This has always been the point of it", neither of which matter, all that matters is what it means for this game at a competitive level. I have said I believe that NRS should in fact fix character attack hit boxes, because that would resolve this issue, and make the footsie game stronger, as opposed to "fixing" the clone which almost certainly is not the source of the issue, and would likely create more problems in the long run.

And before this is brought up again, no, what I am saying that should be changed would not increase the range of attacks, all it does is enlarge the area that the limbs doing the attacks can be hit, it does not affect the attacks range at all.

 

[Gilbagz]

No, we aren't because you aren't taking into account what I said about the issue being character attack hit boxes, not the clone. You cannot do that with several attacks, only certain attacks make it through, which means the issue is not the clone, it's the attacks. What is also something that is completely derailing this conversation is the constant bringing up of "what ice clone is meant to do." or "This has always been the point of it", neither of which matter, all that matters is what it means for this game at a competitive level. I have said I believe that NRS should in fact fix character attack hit boxes, because that would resolve this issue, and make the footsie game stronger, as opposed to "fixing" the clone which almost certainly is not the source of the issue, and would likely create more problems in the long run.

And before this is brought up again, no, what I am saying that should be changed would not increase the range of attacks, all it does is enlarge the area that the limbs doing the attacks can be hit, it does not affect the attacks range at all.

Just a note, I think the thing that might be confusing people
You're referring to hurtboxes not hitboxes
Most people probably realise the error though.
Regardless I kinda agree with you, having larger hurt boxes would make whiff punishing pokes easier and would help with the clone inconsistencies.

 

[-narshkajke-]

No, we aren't because you aren't taking into account what I said about the issue being character attack hit boxes, not the clone. You cannot do that with several attacks, only certain attacks make it through, which means the issue is not the clone, it's the attacks. What is also something that is completely derailing this conversation is the constant bringing up of "what ice clone is meant to do." or "This has always been the point of it", neither of which matter, all that matters is what it means for this game at a competitive level. I have said I believe that NRS should in fact fix character attack hit boxes, because that would resolve this issue, and make the footsie game stronger, as opposed to "fixing" the clone which almost certainly is not the source of the issue, and would likely create more problems in the long run.

And before this is brought up again, no, what I am saying that should be changed would not increase the range of attacks, all it does is enlarge the area that the limbs doing the attacks can be hit, it does not affect the attacks range at all.

I know right, the logic is simple yet some people afraid of admitting it, because they hate the concept of not getting out of klone for free.

habibi, did I mention you there up there? don't get too touchy on this subject man, you know it's just a game.
I respect your opinion, but I believe that you touch klone you got frozen, since the first post by Tom it's always about that, the derailing part is when people say sub's still good, or it's what the developer intended, or when people trying to cry about his char or some other char can't get out of klone for free.

what ice klone is supposed to do matters, because the argument here that it's not doing it's job, especially after "klone disappears on block".I can't put it any simpler than that.

I don't care how they'll fix it, I don't delve much into the technical stuff here, maybe your way is the right way? beats me, but the point still stand from the first post in this thread, if sub's klone going to disappear on block, fix it so it won't let people bypass it for free.

I bid you good day habibi

 

[RVB]

All this pointless bickering over nothing... here is the problem in very simple terms, characters can use certain attacks and non enhanced specials to get in contact with a Klone and NOT GET FROZEN, the problem is this situation is bypassing the klone's primary goal of freezing opponents on contact of any kind other than an enhanced special with armor or moves that involve assets akin to Kung Jin's bow or D'vorah's insect arms.
SUB ZERO PLAYERS DO NOT CARE HOW THIS ISSUE GETS FIXED WE JUST WANT IT FIXED !
People talking of hitboxes and hurtboxes and if the attacks or the klone need fixing, all of that is utterly pointless in a thread that only seeks to let people know that certain aspects of a tool are not working correctly.
NOBODY can argue that in the video below the klone is behaving CORRECTLY!

 

[ZeZe]

3) This very well seems like a box issue and should be easily fixed to catch things like raiden's fly. Does Raiden's fly go through clone if you are a jump distance away from hit?

Got it recorded and don't even know how . Just look here, pls:

You'll notice that sometimes clone freezes, sometimes it doesn't. Same set up. Surely not WAI otherwise you'll have one outcome in same set up, not two different ones depending on how lucky you are today.

Also yeah, it happens to Sub when he's full screen away from Raiden and clone is in the middle. And it's also coin flip chance of Raiden getting frozen or not.

 

[james1926]

It was like that in MK9. It was obvious klone will be mainly a corner trap tool in MKX again. And mind you, Sub0 sucked in MK9 big time. And he could place air clone there, too. People weren't impressed though.
Edit: plus in MK9 clone didn't disappear on block. Sub still sucked.

Sub sucked in MK9, however, he was maybe the most unbalanced character in the game. He had plenty 3-7 and many 7-3 as well. All because of that ice clone... Let's face it it's very hard to make a character with that move balanced. That move just doesn't work in a fighting game.

 

[Thierry Henry]

This is a Tom Brady thread these day.

He brings up, usually a valid point. Someone with far less skill takes a shot for the purpose of getting likes and everyone dog piles.

It doesn't matter if there is stuff worse or better than clone in this game. The subject is about clone and it's imperfections, not other stuff. No need to talk about gas stations my friends.

 

[TheIrishFGCguy]

NOBODY can argue that in the video below the klone is behaving CORRECTLY!

DarthVado can. After all, people poking right through the klone is fine! And standing behind the klone is improper spacing and we should be punished for it! (I'm not making this up, he actually said this)