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Video/Tutorial - Grandmaster Sub-Zero's Ice Clone doesn't work properly

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DarthVado

The Worst Guy
I was trying to see if you can replicate the klone glitch on a regular basis and it seems that indeed you can AND not only with Raiden's superman :
I wonder how may of these situations actually exist when the klone just doesn't work properly, if any of you guys find more stuff feel free to share them here and attach the videos to the support ticket for NRS to see.
I do not want to hear any more talk about stuff like this being "intended" when it is clear as daylight that it is not.
@Tom Brady The second video here proves you wrong by the way, if the hit box of the clone was all the way in the back like you say it is, and it's not a hurtbox issue on attacks, then Scorpion would be getting frozen, since he attacks the back of the clone, yet is still not frozen. Unless you are now going to tell me the ice clone just doesn't have a hit box and it's existence is just a cruel joke by NRS.
 

big j gleez

Mains: Not Sure Right Now ...
I would imagine the hit box changes depending on what side of the clone you are on. It is probably always the back side of the clone in relation to the side in which a person is standing
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
I would like this 100 times if I could, yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about, like word for word.


Tell people to adapt until it's your character that gets nerfed, then complain about any changes you have to make to your gameplan, it's a proven top tier strat.
I don't know what it is. It's like the MK community needs a stricter parent or something. The only way it got this bad must be from how the community handled MK9 and Injustice. I don't know too much about that though as i barely kept with the NRS competitive scene. (Heck NRS barely keeps up might as well follow suit lol.)

On another note. Would you like to play on steam? I think i added you already.
 

Nereus

Noob
So basically, you want ice clone buffed so you can trap people behind it so they can't have and offensive options whatsoever. Got it. Just play the game and quit whining about your already powerful character.
That sounds like a personal problem coming from you bud. Anyways.. what he's asking for is for the ice clone to function properly. It makes sense that normals such as D'vorahs will go through the ice clone.. but it makes no sense that you can just use.. lets say.. Erron Black's normals and go right through the ice clone as if it isn't there.
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
@ZeZe
@RVB
@Tom Brady

I went on and tried Raiden Fly against clone. Here are my results.

IF Sub zero does f4,2xxKlone and does nothing - he might be hit.
IF Sub zero does f4,2xxKlone and blocks - Raiden usually gets frozen but can go through it.
IF Sub zero does f4,2xxKlone and back dashes - Raiden gets frozen

The most interesting part to me is the difference between doing nothing and blocking. When SZ blocks he brings his hands closer to his chest which shortens his hurtbox. Compare that to SZ at neutral where he sticks his arm out. That arm is dangerously close to the clone.

I think its close enough AND Raiden Fly hitbox extends PAST him enough that touches subzero BEFORE the clone's HITBOX touches Radien's HURTBOX. As for the uncertainty for when he freezes. I contribute this to the fact that character's hurtboxes change based on their breathing pattern. There was a thread on this a while back because it really messed with a character. I forget who but i think it was Jacqui. I'll have a video up later. I will change any of this if i go through at a distance or on block even ONCE.

I'm playing on PS4, I noticed ZeZe's test was on PC. That might make a difference. I'll test on PC but don't have a reliable way to record that.

EDIT: I'm not against fixing things and i'm not saying SZ is perfect or anything like that. I just wanted to come to a conrete conclusion as to why this is happening. The other videos didn't do that for me so i took upon myself to test this. I just want actual fix not a misguided one. I think an appropriate comparison would be Cyrax. Or maybe Jade. I know both of those characters got changed in some form but Cyrax still dominated because his changes weren't right/enough and Jade sucked because her changes were too much/too quick.

Second EDIT: Fixed my results and uploaded video. I got Raiden to hit on block but my theory still works as it is very rare to occur in my tests. I managed to play it slow enough when Raiden went through on block and his hands go completely through the clone before it touches sub zero. Which made me think of another way to put what's happening. The clone IS working as intended. It's just the information it uses to compute if it should work or not is wonky. Breathing altering hurtboxes, phantom hitboxes, It's own hitbox. All these things coupled together lead to some odd visual effects. I'm sure you can get Kotal's infamous JI1 to go through clone all the time if mostly.

Video:
 
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DarthVado

The Worst Guy
I don't know what it is. It's like the MK community needs a stricter parent or something. The only way it got this bad must be from how the community handled MK9 and Injustice. I don't know too much about that though as i barely kept with the NRS competitive scene. (Heck NRS barely keeps up might as well follow suit lol.)

On another note. Would you like to play on steam? I think i added you already.
I'd love to play if I had MKX on Steam, lol. I'm on Playstation.

I think the issue is just NRS community not used to actually having to adapt to a lot of these things, since a lot of it didn't apply as much in previous NRS games. Like I think in MK9, for the most part, hurtboxes and hitboxes overlapped, which was more okay in that, since normals didn't differ as much as they do in this.
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
I'd love to play if I had MKX on Steam, lol. I'm on Playstation.

I think the issue is just NRS community not used to actually having to adapt to a lot of these things, since a lot of it didn't apply as much in previous NRS games. Like I think in MK9, for the most part, hurtboxes and hitboxes overlapped, which was more okay in that, since normals didn't differ as much as they do in this.
Yeah i definitely think this whole situation, from the reaction, to it even happening is from NRS's . . . Style of doing things. I still give them slack though because to me they only have been actively trying to make a competitive fighter for like 6 years (Im giving them 2 years for the dev of MK9). Shame you're only on playstation. I'll add you and next time i have plus we should play.
 
What is your point and what does it have to do with the klone being fixed in MKX ?
From what I gather you are trying to tell me that MK9 SZ was high tier because of the klone and it's the same thing for MKX?
IF that is the case then I must retract my earlier words and say that YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE WHAT MAKES A CHARACTER HIGH TIER, it's not cuz of a single tool or asset it's a combination of multiple factors.
I'm tired of having these pointless discussions while the goal here IS TO FIX A BUG!
No. I was just replying to a post that was saying MK9 Sub was weak. Exactly, because Sub had that ice clone, he HAD to lack other tools, which made him have many losing matchups. On the other hand, the ice clone was enough to made have him many winning matchups as well. Thus, explaining a character with that move it's hard to impossible to be balanced.

The other stuff your saying comes from your head. I never said he was top tier nor I commented on anything that had to do with MKX ice clone issue. Try to understand what someone is saying before you decide to act like an asshole.
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
I think that your point about him having very different levels of balance among match ups due to the nature of Ice Clone, is very true. However throwing out statements that he had many 7-3 match ups which is very untrue and seems like an arbitrary number you've attached to support your statements, which you really didn't need to because you were already correct.

Ice Clone IS a unique tool, and it will be hard to balance every character to play in a game with it, and it think we just have to accept SZ is going to have a hard time sometimes. He is going to have varied match ups, so when discussing balancing him, it's better to aim for just him to have some weak matches and some balanced ones, rather than making a BUNCH of characters have bad match ups against him, all to accommodate the unique tool he brings to the game.




That being said, I think they actually did an excellent job of balancing him this time around. He's solid mid tier, with no real stomps, he has tools to get him through any terrible match ups that might arise anyway, there is only so bad you can be with a solid 50/50 and a 37% HKD wall combo (into the reliable threat of 50% off either 50/50 if they have no meter/armoured wake up), the ability to carry characters over there from connecting just about anything at all from absolutely anywhere on the screen, (and still getting close off things that don't quite make it all the way to corner from centre screen like raw clone/Iceball), a really good back and forward dash and run speed, great JiP / NJP, two very useful armoured Wake Up (one that both AA's and launches from the ground and is a small combo starter with good carry or corner swap off F42 into either Slide or Grab respectively, and one that hits low with immediate position switch all 3 of which leaving no teachable knockdown) , a 7 frame punish into full combo meterless, and even the Clone which is always SOMEWHAT useful even against Dvorah (sure she has tools to get around it, but just the threat of the clone wards the ones that don't), these are all very solid tools even if they aren't ridiculous, so that it's really hard to give him a "terrible" match up other than by putting an OP character in front of him, which is an issue with THEM that needs to be fixed, not an issue with Sub.

Also, while saying "play something else!" is usually a poor excuse for balancing issues, I think given the nature of Ice Clones varied effectiveness in different match ups and how this will ALWAYS be the case, it's fair to point out that if you really feel Clone adds too little to a specific match up, that Cryomancer is a very playable variation that actually lives up to the term "variation" as it really throws some new tools his way that can tear holes through Dvorahs defence, and make a match end a lot quicker, and Unbreakable which trades off Ice Burst wake up, for a zero chip mechanic, and a freeze that DOES work the only place that clone doesn't in this match up, against extended limbs, if this is why you think Clone is useless here. Somehow I think you'll find the Clone is still more useful against them though, that tool has many uses.




I don't think fixing the Clone hitbox will make him OP or anything I think something needs to happen here to make it do it's role, however he doesn't need any other buffs that would throw out currently balanced match up, he's fine as is.
 
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RVB

twitch.tv/rvblacktail
Seeing as how you play SZ. What can you do after a blocked d2? Also, do you play on steam, and would you like to get some matches in?
You mean blocked b2 right? Also add me on steam but if you're not euro then we are going to lag.

@DarthVado I get what you're trying to do man, I really do, that's why I avoided getting on your case like I did with everybody else, you're just trying to find why this is happening and that is commendable BUT like I have said in prior posts THIS THREAD isn't about figuring out WHY this is happening IT'S ABOUT MAKING IT KNOWN THAT THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG IN THE GAME AND WE WOULD LIKE IT FIXED.

It's not your job to see why the klone is misbehaving, it's not your job to see if the attacks are causing the problem or the klone itself AND WE DON'T CARE if you've taken upon yourself to find out.
IF you really want to help out the submit a support ticket with everything you've found on the matter and make it so that this crap doesn't happen anymore.
This isn't a competition to disprove or prove what Brady said cuz at the end of the day nobody give two shits about that, IT'S ABOUT GETTING THIS GAME IN A BETTER SHAPE and I know for a fact that you stand behind that.

EVERYONE HERE will agree with me that having a tool that behaves inconsistently and fixing it = MAKING THE GAME BETTER, regardless if it's the klone, attack hitboxes/hurtboxes or any other game asset.
NOW let's get to submitting more tickets shall we... gentlemen!
 

Zebster

How's my volume?
You mean blocked b2 right? Also add me on steam but if you're not euro then we are going to lag.

@DarthVado I get what you're trying to do man, I really do, that's why I avoided getting on your case like I did with everybody else, you're just trying to find why this is happening and that is commendable BUT like I have said in prior posts THIS THREAD isn't about figuring out WHY this is happening IT'S ABOUT MAKING IT KNOWN THAT THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG IN THE GAME AND WE WOULD LIKE IT FIXED.
The problem with this logic is that, if he's right about what's going on, then there ISN'T anything wrong with the game. What, do you want clone to have the same triggering properties as Sonya's X-ray properties (where it triggers upon contact with a hitbox, rather than a hurtbox) in addition to its current properties? Cause that's the only way to "fix" this without changing the properties of several characters moves, and NEITHER of those things are going to happen.
 

ZeZe

The smart stuff!
@ZeZe


IF Sub zero does f4,2xxKlone and does nothing - he might be hit.
IF Sub zero does f4,2xxKlone and blocks - Raiden usually gets frozen but can go through it.
IF Sub zero does f4,2xxKlone and back dashes - Raiden gets frozen
Thanks for the video, man. And THIS!

NRS really should just explain how Klone works now.

In order to get Raiden frozen during fly I need to hold block. He still might not be frozen though. I want to know why and what need I do to get him frozen for sure. Should I know, it would be able to make adjustments. (Just for the record: in my video I was not holding block and still was able to freeze Raiden although less often).
On the other hand in the corner If I block even a poke from certain characters I'll lose my klone. This tool is so messed up it needs freakin' instruction manual. I don't care how it gets fixed. If it gets fixed by adjusting all casts hitboxes/hurtboxes so be it.

And yeah, I am using PC version. Might be the reason for me not being able to cancel f4,2 into MB Klone in the corner on not blocking opponents.

As for argument that Sub-0's clone is too good, and thus is the reason for him being always bad so that he does not dominate the whole cast: it only puts NRS in a very bad light. It's saying they have created something they are unable to balance in any other means then just by making it broken and unreliable.
 
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RVB

twitch.tv/rvblacktail
Cause that's the only way to "fix" this without changing the properties of several characters moves, and NEITHER of those things are going to happen.
Explain to me why is that SET IN STONE and why Sub Zero players should get blown up by non enhanced moves like those already shown in my videos?
Do you find it fair that SZ putting up a klone should have a random factor attached to it, LIKE a lottery that decides if a move gets frozen or not upon contact?
Do you find it fair when other characters moves WHIFF WHEN THEY SHOULDN'T?
IN ANY COMPETITIVE game randomness is frowned upon except this community where it seems certain members are all but happy to accept this.
It all boils down to having CONSISTENCY, and this has been proven to no be the case with the klone.
 
As someone who still thinks sub is easily top 10, this should be fixed. This is obviously due to bad hurtboxes and they need to fix it, end of.
Easily top 10? He is not better then ....

KL, KJ, Kenshi, D'Vorah, Quan Chi, Raiden, Tanya, Sonya, Scorpion, Erron Black, Cassie, Jax

People who over rate the Ice Clone will always have Sub-Zero rated much better then he really is.
 
I was trying to see if you can replicate the klone glitch on a regular basis and it seems that indeed you can AND not only with Raiden's superman :
I wonder how may of these situations actually exist when the klone just doesn't work properly, if any of you guys find more stuff feel free to share them here and attach the videos to the support ticket for NRS to see.
I do not want to hear any more talk about stuff like this being "intended" when it is clear as daylight that it is not.
Look at those video examples... There is NO WAY anyone can say the clone works right.
 

RVB

twitch.tv/rvblacktail
Look at those video examples... There is NO WAY anyone can say the clone works right.
And the thing is you can fully take advantage of this in a competitive match as all you have to do with Raiden is watch your spacing and do superman on reaction to the klone, SZ is stuck in the klone recovery and can't block and Raiden gets a punish for no meter and more importantly gets to take you for a ride to the corner.
As for scorpion the situation is like this SZ does a klone, moves ahead of it keeping it to his back and then tries to bait a tele with an iceball what you get is SZ blown up by scorpions regular tele because the klone didn't freeze on contact.
Here's the Raiden setup happening in a LIVE match on stream
BUT don't be fooled by this the klone is still working properly! :DOGE
 

Zephyrus

TYM resident party pooper
Easily top 10? He is not better then ....

KL, KJ, Kenshi, D'Vorah, Quan Chi, Raiden, Tanya, Sonya, Scorpion, Erron Black, Cassie, Jax

People who over rate the Ice Clone will always have Sub-Zero rated much better then he really is.
pick cryomancer.
Grandmaster gets it's only good tool nerfed and doesn't get anything to balance it. His low damage was a good trade for how good the clone was. Now the clone isn't nearly as powerful as it was and he still has low damage.
Pick cryomancer. I'm 100% sure that as the game moves forward, this variation will be the best he has because let's face it... this game is injustice all over again. 50/50's everywhere. Cryomancer has them and he has the damage too.
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
Either way I could care less. Thanks to Tom, at least we know we have stuff to lab out to avoid the double 50/50 in the corner. lol
This is exactly the issue. So many of you say he's wrong, complained till SZ was nerfed, act like the talk on how to balance SZ is completely one sided.... But you DONT ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT YOUR OPTIONS ARE and haven't bothered attempting to find ways to punish things yet don't hesitate to call it completely safe. Not just SZ discussion, happens everywhere on TYM
 

TheIrishFGCguy

Pew pew pew
pick cryomancer.
Grandmaster gets it's only good tool nerfed and doesn't get anything to balance it. His low damage was a good trade for how good the clone was. Now the clone isn't nearly as powerful as it was and he still has low damage.
Pick cryomancer. I'm 100% sure that as the game moves forward, this variation will be the best he has because let's face it... this game is injustice all over again. 50/50's everywhere. Cryomancer has them and he has the damage too.
Cryomancer has nothing the other variations don't have except damage. The klone, even when nerfed, is significantly better than anything cryomancer can do.
 

Zephyrus

TYM resident party pooper
Cryomancer has nothing the other variations don't have except damage. The klone, even when nerfed, is significantly better than anything cryomancer can do.
No? He has an extra overhead that pops up. And it isn't a slow one. Want a 50/50 that will hurt if you guess wrong? 33. Condition them to block the second hit of the string and when they do use the ex hammer.

This clone is the most overrated move in the entire franchise.

But that's my opinion. I certainly prefer to kill you if I touch you 3 times than having to set up shit on an unreliable move and having to hit you 7 times to get that win.
I mean... this community overrated Kung Jin to hell and back and then ignores that cryomancer is kinda the same damn shit as bojutsu. Only thing he lacks to actually be like KJ bojutsu, is KJ ridiculous njp.

But hey. I'm not a tournament player so my opinion isn't counted... despite me saying what we're currently witnessing, weeks before someone takes notice and applies them. I mean I haven't been wrong even once concerning characters and their strenghts so... better to ignore or laugh and then hearing the same damn shit weeks later by a tournament player.
 
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