Match-Up Discussion - Bojutsu In Case You Were Wondering Who Beats Bojutsu Kung Jin...

[The_Tile]

It's the same against a lot of characters though since armour is so prominent in this game. If you make the right read you can blow him up, the guessing game is the same accross the cast. Jin is just able to capitalize a lot more than other characters can from their launchers.

Yeah I think that's what makes him scary...his constant 50/50s and ability to swing a match in his favor basically means that your game has to be on point against him. Spacing him out is the thing to do against him...See Pig's Winner's Finals with Kenshi vs Forever King's KJ. Zone properly and keep KJ at a good range and you got him in. Basically this:

Maybe I didn't word it the best, but that was pretty much what I was trying to say. His ability to capitalize off every hit much better than most of the pressure based characters in this game makes pressuring Kung Jin scary as hell. I usually think zoning is pretty boring tbh but I guess it has to be done vs Jin. Or the mirror of course

 

[NurzBenny]

War God Kotal is a bill, you need to learn the MU. Kung Jin can punish a majority of his stuff for crazy damage. The MU is definitely in Kung Jins favor.

Just because one character is easier to execute doesn't necessarily mean he's better. Along with Kano, Jax has some of the best OS'es in the game with a dirty tick throw.

As a kotal player...No one talks about him because he gets zoned, and is still a punish oriented character. He auto loses to safe pressure, even with well timed mace parries. His macuixochtl reach is about the same as KJ's reach, but KJ is faster, has better recovery, and his reach comes from normals as opposed to a couple of specials. And as I said before, lol f3

This discussion does make me want to pick up Raiden next potentially...how's the Raiden Subzero MU?

Kotal Khan gets zoned? With some of the fastest walk speed in the game? With his far reaching down 3 and 4. With his footsies for dummies F1? His "probably" farthest reaching in the game jump punches? Unblockable and Unblockable feint to mess up your opponents timing? A sun pillar that either forces his opponent to move out of the way of or lets Kotal turtle inside of and gain health? A blocked thrown macuixochtl ex (or even regular if your ballsy) is a free get in everytime. I don't know if ANYONE gets hardcore zoned out in this game, but I'm know for damn sure Kotal isn't one of them, and it's not by Kung Jin that's for sure.

Kung can blow up a ton of strings that end in the macuixochtl low overhead because of the gaps, with ex db1 but Kotal Can also blow up alot of the KJ 11 221 pressure with his armored stuff as well, for 30-40% in a lot of situations. Kotal as soley a punish character is a bill not the other way around. His pressure is magnificent as well. His buttons are excellent. His ability to go high low low high in this variation and armor through things is big time. Nevermind that skies aren't free or friendly against kotal. F2 catches jump backs, jump forwards, neutral jumps. Aforementioned killer jump punch range, a decent NJP himself and great down 2. Kotal's able to low profile KJ's instant NJP with down 3 and 4 for free punishes on landing (which I think a ton of the cast can)

All that being said I still think the match is even or probably even slightly in KJ's favor cuz KJ, but the idea that War God Kotal is some lame duck bill character not worth his salt is absolute horse shit. I've played the match up, I know what that character has and doesn't have (and it's not much) Maybe y'all need to re-learn and/or re-evaluate
Ask @KDZ or Coach Steve or @DarthArma if that character gets zoned, or loses to safe pressure and is mainly punish oriented.

 

[STRYKIE]

He also has the added advantage of making YOU guess which wakeup he might do... because one is punishable and the other puts YOU back into the grinder. lol. yeesh.

Which one?

 

[FinalBoss_FGC]

Play my liu kang

PS4?

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Which one?

his exFlip kick is plus on block

so ...... you can run up and try to block the ex swing as a bait... but he can read that and simply do the freaking flip kick to get into plus frames and put you into his 50/50

you can stand outside of range of both attacks..... but then you're allowing him to get off his back for free.

The only way to really punish his wakeups is to use meter yourself.

 

[FinalBoss_FGC]

This means nothing, and applies to most match-ups, and shouldn't be a talking point. If someone doesn't know the match-up then there is no discussion worth having.

I guess I was being way too broad. I meant basically adapting to Ice Clone because Kung Jin has to play two different ways vs GMSZ...I meant it depends on how they are able to adapt to Ice Clone. IE - using low bo swing to punish

 

[Zoidberg747]

Kotal Khan gets zoned? With some of the fastest walk speed in the game? With his far reaching down 3 and 4. With his footsies for dummies F1? His "probably" farthest reaching in the game jump punches? Unblockable and Unblockable feint to mess up your opponents timing? A sun pillar that either forces his opponent to move out of the way of or lets Kotal turtle inside of and gain health? A blocked thrown macuixochtl ex (or even regular if your ballsy) is a free get in everytime. I don't know if ANYONE gets hardcore zoned out in this game, but I'm know for damn sure Kotal isn't one of them, and it's not by Kung Jin that's for sure.

Kung can blow up a ton of strings that end in the macuixochtl low overhead because of the gaps, with ex db1 but Kotal Can also blow up alot of the KJ 11 221 pressure with his armored stuff as well, for 30-40% in a lot of situations. Kotal as soley a punish character is a bill not the other way around. His pressure is magnificent as well. His buttons are excellent. His ability to go high low low high in this variation and armor through things is big time. Nevermind that skies aren't free or friendly against kotal. F2 catches jump backs, jump forwards, neutral jumps. Aforementioned killer jump punch range, a decent NJP himself and great down 2. Kotal's able to low profile KJ's instant NJP with down 3 and 4 for free punishes on landing (which I think a ton of the cast can)

All that being said I still think the match is even or probably even slightly in KJ's favor cuz KJ, but the idea that War God Kotal is some lame duck bill character not worth his salt is absolute horse shit. I've played the match up, I know what that character has and doesn't have (and it's not much) Maybe y'all need to re-learn and/or re-evaluate
Ask @KDZ or Coach Steve or @DarthArma if that character gets zoned, or loses to safe pressure and is mainly punish oriented.

That footsies for dummies f1 is punishable by the entire cast. I also NEVER said Kotal Gets zoned out, because no Kung Jins should be zoning Kotal anyway. If you jump you can punish the feint and the unblockable. The god ray must be setup perfectly and even then with practice you can beat it. Kotals pressure is not excellent considering almost all of it has gaps and is punishable.

P.S. I play against two very good War Gods(one who got top 8 at TX Showdown and one who got top 16) and they both agree with what I just said. He isnt low tier but he is mid tier for sure. But if you dont believe you can ask @Pnut himself.

 

[Zoidberg747]

his exFlip kick is plus on block

so ...... you can run up and try to block the ex swing as a bait... but he can read that and simply do the freaking flip kick to get into plus frames and put you into his 50/50

you can stand outside of range of both attacks..... but then you're allowing him to get off his back for free.

The only way to really punish his wakeups is to use meter yourself.

Crossover jump beats all his wakeup options

 

[Tony at Home]

Covert Ops Sonya might be even. Kung Jin is too risky to do standing pressure against, but Sonya Covert Ops is very hard knockdown oriented. She doesn't rely on standing resets that KJ blows up completely.

Denolitions Sonya doesn't stand a chance. She gets outzoned and outrushed. It feels terrible. If she runs out of grenades for any reason KJ complete shuts down all her refill options.

Not sure how Droneya does against him. First thought is poorly for the same reason as Demolitions (not as poorly perhaps)

Covert Ops probably best choice, but Im still uncertain about Special Forces.

 

[FinalBoss_FGC]

his exFlip kick is plus on block

so ...... you can run up and try to block the ex swing as a bait... but he can read that and simply do the freaking flip kick to get into plus frames and put you into his 50/50

you can stand outside of range of both attacks..... but then you're allowing him to get off his back for free.

The only way to really punish his wakeups is to use meter yourself.

You use Reptile right? Why aren't you making him whiff then sliding? Lol

 

[dribirut]

Kano def beats Kung Jin. He really struggles to get in with that floaty ass jump. I can aa with knives on reaction with knives. And Kung Jin doesn't have better footsie tools. I'd say even if not kabo has better

 

[dribirut]

Kung Jin is a little overrated imo. His 50/50s are fuzzyable.

 

[FinalBoss_FGC]

Kano def beats Kung Jin. He really struggles to get in with that floaty ass jump. I can aa with knives on reaction with knives. And Kung Jin doesn't have better footsie tools. I'd say even if not kabo has better

Kano does not have better footsie tools. Kung Jin is safe on 11, f24, and b14. Not to mention KJ laughs at Kano reaching normals. Kano has to stay on his ass but KJ can punish any gaps or block strings with mb bo swing to 39%

 

[FinalBoss_FGC]

Kung Jin is a little overrated imo. His 50/50s are fuzzyable.

50/50s are fuzzyable? Do you know what that even means?

 

[dribirut]

50/50s are fuzzyable? Do you know what that even means?

Overhead is 19 frames, low is faster.. So block low then overhead. I block it 80-90% of the time now. Just takes a little practice

 

[dribirut]

Kano does not have better footsie tools. Kung Jin is safe on 11, f24, and b14. Not to mention KJ laughs at Kano reaching normals. Kano has to stay on his ass but KJ can punish any gaps or block strings with mb bo swing to 39%

Only gap is is 112 and I don't use it. And yes he does. Only footsie tool Kung Jin has that competes is njp but besides that your other strings are either slow or don't have that frwst of reach. Kanos f4/d4/ b2/b1/ and especially knives out class anything kj has besides njp. Also your loopy ass jump is easy as fuck to aa with b1 even when you try to dive kic

 

[FinalBoss_FGC]

Overhead is 19 frames, low is faster.. So block low then overhead. I block it 80-90% of the time now. Just takes a little practice

So you block high on reaction? Lol okay. You're super human.

 

[FinalBoss_FGC]

Only gap is is 112 and I don't use it. And yes he does. Only footsie tool Kung Jin has that competes is njp but besides that your other strings are either slow or don't have that frwst of reach. Kanos f4/d4/ b2/b1/ and especially knives out class anything kj has besides njp. Also your loopy ass jump is easy as fuck to aa with b1 even when you try to dive kic

I'm free tonight if you wanna show me. Around 9pm cst

 

[STRYKIE]

his exFlip kick is plus on block

so ...... you can run up and try to block the ex swing as a bait... but he can read that and simply do the freaking flip kick to get into plus frames and put you into his 50/50

you can stand outside of range of both attacks..... but then you're allowing him to get off his back for free.

The only way to really punish his wakeups is to use meter yourself.

From the range EX cartwheel covers, you can hover outside it and still block his other wakeups. Sounds like you're being sold a dummy by online, which, hasn't exactly been an unknown premise for the last 4 years, lol.

So you block high on reaction? Lol okay. You're super human.

I think what he means is that he knows the ranges at which a KJ player will try to check you with the F2, which I can somewhat agree with, but if he's saying he's seeing it and stand blocking accordingly, then yeah... I'm a little skeptical...

 

[dribirut]

So you block high on reaction? Lol okay. You're super human.

How am I super human? Human reaction time is around 15 frames. This overhead low mixup is almost exactly like Martians and that was fuzzyguardable and his oh was a frame faster so this is without a doubt fuzzyable. Watch people will start blocking it more consistently soon. And yea sure I'm on live

 

[NurzBenny]

That footsies for dummies f1 is punishable by the entire cast. I also NEVER said Kotal Gets zoned out, because no Kung Jins should be zoning Kotal anyway. If you jump you can punish the feint and the unblockable. The god ray must be setup perfectly and even then with practice you can beat it. Kotals pressure is not excellent considering almost all of it has gaps and is punishable.

P.S. I play against two very good War Gods(one who got top 8 at TX Showdown and one who got top 16) and they both agree with what I just said. He isnt low tier but he is mid tier for sure. But if you dont believe you can ask @Pnut himself.

F1 raw sure, F1 canceled into low swing, F12, F1 overhead, F1 into the shoulder rip, you stagger and mix it up, and it becomes a lot less of a cut and dry math problem. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to set up sun pillar, especially if you've got an opponent on tilt in the neutral or full screen. Having good pressure doesn't mean it's fool proof. Even Kabal had gaps, what character's pressure doesn't have gaps? Good players know how to make it work, and bait out potential would be punishes into punishes of their own.

I play a Kotal who got 5th at Resistance last Saturday. His only losses were to reo and junior. He could be mid. I think he's easily top 10 and probably even better than that.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

From the range EX cartwheel covers, you can hover outside it and still block his other wakeups. Sounds like you're being sold a dummy by online, which, hasn't exactly been an unknown premise for the last 4 years, lol.


I think what he means is that he knows the ranges at which a KJ player will try to check you with the F2, which I can somewhat agree with, but if he's saying he's seeing it and stand blocking accordingly, then yeah... I'm a little skeptical...

the fact that you have to hover that far out means he'll just back dash and be on his feet.

again... what other character can say they put YOU into a guessing game on their back having very distinct options that are in their favor?

This isn't an online thing... i read slips and mit debate this exact situation.

 

[FinalBoss_FGC]

How am I super human? Human reaction time is around 15 frames. This overhead low mixup is almost exactly like Martians and that was fuzzyguardable and his oh was a frame faster so this is without a doubt fuzzyable. Watch people will start blocking it more consistently soon. And yea sure I'm on live

Martians overhead was not +4 on block and couldn't cancel into either an overhead or low knockdown. So even if you can react, you don't get rewarded.

 

[haketh]

Only gap is is 112 and I don't use it. And yes he does. Only footsie tool Kung Jin has that competes is njp but besides that your other strings are either slow or don't have that frwst of reach. Kanos f4/d4/ b2/b1/ and especially knives out class anything kj has besides njp. Also your loopy ass jump is easy as fuck to aa with b1 even when you try to dive kic

I wouldn't say Kano outclasses but he can definitely keep up especially with his really good whiff punishment & great dashes.

 

[ragnar0kz28]

Im ok with Kitana, I can keep him out and abuse the parry to get 15 dmg all day after i do an unsafe string I end it with parry, it does wonders you dont know how many KJ players do ex atack or a d1 and eat the parry. at full range she has better zoning, the KJ im afraid of is the one that changes hes bows.