What's new

Match-Up Discussion - Bojutsu In Case You Were Wondering Who Beats Bojutsu Kung Jin...

Eijiken

Noob
That footsies for dummies f1 is punishable by the entire cast. I also NEVER said Kotal Gets zoned out, because no Kung Jins should be zoning Kotal anyway. If you jump you can punish the feint and the unblockable. The god ray must be setup perfectly and even then with practice you can beat it. Kotals pressure is not excellent considering almost all of it has gaps and is punishable.

P.S. I play against two very good War Gods(one who got top 8 at TX Showdown and one who got top 16) and they both agree with what I just said. He isnt low tier but he is mid tier for sure. But if you dont believe you can ask @Pnut himself.
When I said zoned out I meant zoning by the general cast. Yeah I think its common knowledge that KJ is not a zoner at all...if anything him trying to zone is counterintuitive to his range

Oh I know Kahn's f2 is hilarious, its his best starter as it will at worst, trade with jump-ins, njp's, etc. As I check out the threads I notice more tech has been discovered. I still pocket him as mace parry laughs at sz slides and such
 
Im ok with Kitana, I can keep him out and abuse the parry to get 15 dmg all day after i do an unsafe string I end it with parry, it does wonders you dont know how many KJ players do ex atack or a d1 and eat the parry. at full range she has better zoning, the KJ im afraid of is the one that changes hes bows.


I tried this in training he punishes the parry lol

EDIT only if he goes for a throw specials he cant block the parry
parry also doesn't work on low bo swing and the cartwheel
 
Last edited:

Pnut

Mouth of the Illuminati
Kotal's a bill and Kung Jin bodies him. You all need to level up. If I can compete with some of the best in certain matchups and barely win against my friends' alt Kung Jins you know there is something wrong. The matchup is fucked when he can punish my 9% moves for 40% (not to mention he can armor through them anyway).

Also his NJP is terrible and whiffs on crouching opponents in front of him.
 
Last edited:

NurzBenny

Old Member
Kotal's a bill and Kung Jin bodies him. You all need to level up. If I can compete with some of the best in certain matchups and barely win against my friends' alt Kung Jins you know there is something wrong. The matchup is fucked when he can punish my 9% moves for 40% (not to mention he can armor through them anyway).

Also his NJP is terrible and whiffs on crouching opponents in front of him.
But isn't this more the story of how good Kung Jin is and less how bad Kotal is? Story isn't exactly exactly unique to Kotal. You've got some pretty bitching 40% armor punishes yourself. But hey if you think your character is so-so then so be it. It's your character at the end of the day.
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
the fact that you have to hover that far out means he'll just back dash and be on his feet.

again... what other character can say they put YOU into a guessing game on their back having very distinct options that are in their favor?

This isn't an online thing... i read slips and mit debate this exact situation.
You make it sound like we're trying to make Kenshi's old EX charge whiff, there's plenty of other characters I'd feel more apprehensive about backing off from them when cornered and I'd still much rather have KJ there than anywhere else.

And I'm pretty sure Slips and MIT have only been playing Scorpion so far, why they'd knock down, or even want to knock down KJ, I'm not entirely sure. Admittedly I haven't been as active in the Scorp forums as I probably should be, so I'll see what they have to say.


This Ninjutsu Scorpion shit needs to stop. Went from being kinda overlooked and maybe a bit underrated to massively overrated.
Your 10 minute Ninjitsu Scorp on a third world connection doesn't count. Pipe down with the likebait son. :DOGE
 

Pnut

Mouth of the Illuminati
But isn't this more the story of how good Kung Jin is and less how bad Kotal is? Story isn't exactly exactly unique to Kotal. You've got some pretty bitching 40% armor punishes yourself. But hey if you think your character is so-so then so be it. It's your character at the end of the day.
40% for a bar almost never happens unless it's in the corner. Most of the time it ranges from 32% to 38% which is low compared to what other characters get for that amount. F2 as a starter is whatever and doesn't beat all of jump back/nj/jump forward, it just depends on the situation. Kotal's d3 doesn't low profile as well as d4. I'd say d4 is a great tool. The fact that you say footsies for dummies f1 is insulting considering both strings are punishable and if canceled for safety can be armored out of. Sorry we don't actually have a footsies for dummies ADVANTAGE OVERHEAD LAUNCHER. I guarantee once any KJ player plays Kotal for more than 10 games, they will understand and do fine. The matchup sucks. The whole zoning thing is a bill though, that's not why Kotal loses this matchup.
 

NurzBenny

Old Member
40% for a bar almost never happens unless it's in the corner. Most of the time it ranges from 32% to 38% which is low compared to what other characters get for that amount. F2 as a starter is whatever and doesn't beat all of jump back/nj/jump forward, it just depends on the situation. Kotal's d3 doesn't low profile as well as d4. I'd say d4 is a great tool. The fact that you say footsies for dummies f1 is insulting considering both strings are punishable and if canceled for safety can be armored out of. Sorry we don't actually have a footsies for dummies ADVANTAGE OVERHEAD LAUNCHER. I guarantee once any KJ player plays Kotal for more than 10 games, they will understand and do fine. The matchup sucks. The whole zoning thing is a bill though, that's not why Kotal loses this matchup.
I never said Kotal wins, I'm aware of the embarrassment of riches Kung Jin has at his disposal. The idea that Kotal is some hamstrung character who can't compete I think is disingenuous however, not that that's what you were saying, but put it this way, you don't have as bad as some. Perhaps there's some solace that can be taken in that.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
F1 raw sure, F1 canceled into low swing, F12, F1 overhead, F1 into the shoulder rip, you stagger and mix it up, and it becomes a lot less of a cut and dry math problem. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to set up sun pillar, especially if you've got an opponent on tilt in the neutral or full screen. Having good pressure doesn't mean it's fool proof. Even Kabal had gaps, what character's pressure doesn't have gaps? Good players know how to make it work, and bait out potential would be punishes into punishes of their own.

I play a Kotal who got 5th at Resistance last Saturday. His only losses were to reo and junior. He could be mid. I think he's easily top 10 and probably even better than that.
All those things you mentioned have gaps. The biggest thing that helped me in the MU is realizing that his strings into the sword have gaps and can be armored through and back-dashed most of the time. It also doesnt take a rocket scientist to take one step forward or back out of the sun pillar, and force Kotal forward or back to get out of it. You are heavily overestimating that tool. Also Kabal did not have gaps when played optimally.

Believe me I thought the same as you until the kotal players I mentioned sat down and showed me the MU. I Guarantee you those kotals are getting away with a lot of stuff that they wont down the line. He is viable I think but hes got problems you are underestimating.
 

Eijiken

Noob
I never said Kotal wins, I'm aware of the embarrassment of riches Kung Jin has at his disposal. The idea that Kotal is some hamstrung character who can't compete I think is disingenuous however, not that that's what you were saying, but put it this way, you don't have as bad as some. Perhaps there's some solace that can be taken in that.
Notice how I never said he's a shitty character in my post, you're inferring that incorrectly. I just listed the reasons why no one talks about KK, that's all. Pnut's post says it all, even he admits that Kahn takes some serious thought and play
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
"NJP mufuckaz all DAY
NJP mufuckaz all DAY
NJP mufuckaz all DAY

My moves take up half the screen and they take half your life away!"


-Kung Jin's new single from his debut album:

"LearnTheMU"


Coming to a local/major near you!
This deserves to be memetized, i just died laughing
 

NurzBenny

Old Member
I played as Kung Jin vs. my friends Kotal yesterday and DID armor through his strings that ended in sword. I'm aware of what both characters and can't do. I abhor and reject the idea that because something on paper is punishable and/or can be armored through that it becomes worthless and can't be done. No one has unlimited meter. A large part of Mk9 and X was assessing the will you or won't you risk and playing accordingly. You establish patterns, alter them as games progress and so on. The "but it's punishable though!" reduces the game down to far too binary and beta level of micro transactions. We don't play these games with the understanding that x character is better than y character on paper and quit at the character select screen. We play it out and adapt.
And again I'm not even arguing that Kotal wins, I picked up Kung Jin shamelessly for the fact that I think he wins most if not all match ups. I lost to Reo's Kotal in winner's finals of a tournament this past weekend, I know the character's BS, but you've gotta keep playing, or just join the wave.

. . . never said Sun Pillar was going to win a match in and of itself. The notion that Kotal only gets his space controlled and doesn't control any of his own is bullshit however, and that's just one of his many tools to do so.
And what Kabal's were more optimal than Reo and Detroit? Did they never get counter poked? We're humans facing humans at the end of the day.

all that said. Yeah Kung wins.
 

CheapEddie

I HAVE A FACE NOW!
As a day one A-list main who literally (actually using this word correctly) changed to Jax this morning.....Johnny vs KJ is F**king terrible. JC pokes? Eat a dive kick combo, JC uses a special? KJ blocks or crouches and blows you up for 40%. JC gets his nutshot off? Bait the wake up and TRY to poke and continue pressure/eat armoured wake up for 40%. JC uses his "amazing" cancelable pressure? KJ just crouch blocks and blows you the f*ck up, while you try all the while to maintain pressure and annoy him with enough D4 that the F2 connects.
Imao, ur overreacting. The only thing in this MU that annoys so much is KJ`s early jump2 upclose, but its annoying for the whole cast. Other things actually are ok. This MU is all about footsies and baits. U dont need to hold Jin all match upclose, just abuse throws, when u get in. Cage feels very fine against KJ at 2\3-fullscreen distance because JC`s mediocre zoning works very good against Jin and u can actually outzone him very easily.
Still, i dont fully agree with @Eddy Wang, KJ gets more reward for right reads and he doesnt even need meter for this, its not even for sure. But its not horrible either, slightly better at KJ`s favor, imao.
 

Pnut

Mouth of the Illuminati
I played as Kung Jin vs. my friends Kotal yesterday and DID armor through his strings that ended in sword. I'm aware of what both characters and can't do. I abhor and reject the idea that because something on paper is punishable and/or can be armored through that it becomes worthless and can't be done. No one has unlimited meter. A large part of Mk9 and X was assessing the will you or won't you risk and playing accordingly. You establish patterns, alter them as games progress and so on. The "but it's punishable though!" reduces the game down to far too binary and beta level of micro transactions. We don't play these games with the understanding that x character is better than y character on paper and quit at the character select screen. We play it out and adapt.
And again I'm not even arguing that Kotal wins, I picked up Kung Jin shamelessly for the fact that I think he wins most if not all match ups. I lost to Reo's Kotal in winner's finals of a tournament this past weekend, I know the character's BS, but you've gotta keep playing, or just join the wave.

. . . never said Sun Pillar was going to win a match in and of itself. The notion that Kotal only gets his space controlled and doesn't control any of his own is bullshit however, and that's just one of his many tools to do so.
And what Kabal's were more optimal than Reo and Detroit? Did they never get counter poked? We're humans facing humans at the end of the day.

all that said. Yeah Kung wins.
Is there footage of this? I thought he used Kung Jin.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Imao, ur overreacting. The only thing in this MU that annoys so much is KJ`s early jump2 upclose, but its annoying for the whole cast. Other things actually are ok. This MU is all about footsies and baits. U dont need to hold Jin all match upclose, just abuse throws, when u get in. Cage feels very fine against KJ at 2\3-fullscreen distance because JC`s mediocre zoning works very good against Jin and u can actually outzone him very easily.
Still, i dont fully agree with @Eddy Wang, KJ gets more reward for right reads and he doesnt even need meter for this, its not even for sure. But its not horrible either, slightly better at KJ`s favor, imao.
I think i've said "i won't talk out of my ass, i will grind the MU with the 3 characters and see for myself what they have to offer"

Some people in this thread are so stupid they don't played the character for more than 3 days, and hear all scorpion mains saying Hellfire for weeks, so they just follow the chart, I've been playing Scorpion since Day 0, i know excatly what Hellfire and Inferno are capable of same as any other scorpion mains who spend their valuable time discussing techs and their findings with me. I'm taking a different route here and explore a variation a few person uses for my own benefict.

I said before, i don't follow anyone's train here, i get to my own conclusions based on my own judgement and skills and i'm no fucking joke, i know a good character when i see one. My thoughs are my own.

@CheapEddie, thanks for the feedback man, definitely what i was thinking as well, which is why i decided to go for A-list Cage in this MU. The fact that F3 is 10 frames it works as the main punish for any mistakes cage can scout on. Cage has a crappy jump that so far playing him i noticed i can't jump a lot of projectiles on reaction unless the slow ones, which kinda makes me feel that he is meant for solid ground playstyle and entirely designed for foosties, hence why his walkspeed.

I will post my findings with the 3 characters when i go hard on this MU tomorrow, i talked to Smith and he will drop by tomorrow for some extensive play.
 

Zatoichi

Fabulous Goofball
I'd say Commando Kano has a decent chance, never underestimate the Mid/low parries. Sonya Blade as well, probably Special Forces Sonya because that drone pressure with that homing blast and her mix-ups.