EX Throws - 50/50s

[Braindead]

yes

Now we know.

I thought it doesn't make sense, but NRS know what they are doing, so I'll just stop the discussion here.

 

[KingHippo]

(Actually I've touched the game, hence my "outdated and obsolete idea of movement"). Lets take Reptile's MK9 version, then, since thats a tangible idea and the character probably has the same archetype given his moves. What benefit does that reptile have for being far away from a target that he doesn't get being in close? Last I recall, his biggest issue was getting zoned out.

I could be wrong, but I will speculate that MKX Reptile, with the addition of such a strong move like stopping the forceball and having legitimate anti projectile specials, will probably not have the same weaknesses as his MK9 counterpart. I have no idea what his strings are or what they are like so I don't know what he's like up close, but it stands to reason that if what was shown on stream the other day plays out, he now has a tool that is meant to combat his prior weakness, and thus my speculation as to how he would be in MKX based on MK9 is potentially useless. In the meantime, I'll just keep my mouth shut until April.

 

[coolwhip]

As I said in an earlier quote, it was a hypothetical based on the question of "why not mash 100% of the time"? I'm just saying its not entirely wrong to assume you can predict when/if your opponent will tech. Not with 100% accuracy, mind you, but its not impossible to assume a scenario where you know they are incredibly likely to tech.

(actually, if you wanna get technical, if the throw would kill them otherwise I can't see any reason why they wouldn't tech so that can be a 100% situation since you either take the round or get the tech)

That's kind of what I said above actually. Because you know when your opponent might tech (as people grow familiar with each character's BnB's) you can change things up by doing different things, including maybe going for the throw earlier or something. Therefore, you can't know for a fact that your opponent is going to tech 100% of the time because you're preventing him from doing so by changing things up.

Braindead's question was: If I know for a fact with 100% certainty my opponent will tech the throw (not TRY to, but actually succeed in teching it), why would I do it? My point is there would likely be a meta in which you can keep him guessing, as I doubt NRS would make things as simply as "mash mid-combo and you're guaranteed to tech the throw every time." Not to mention, it's still a legit 50/50 as far as doing a forward or back throw (unless you can only forward throw in a combo or something).

 

[SLy]

So a teched EX Grab sets both players at neutral.. No frame advantage.

And not teching a EX Grab grants a 50/50 am I right?

 

[AZ MotherBrain]

I have been thinking alot about this since they slightly demo it yesterday.
As of right now, i feel that it should require two bars, not one.

It also made be think about Ermac.
It seems Ermac B2 could possibly return as an unblockable. Does that mean Ermac could end a BnB in EX throw and then charge a B2 for an unblockable reset?
Also, with the throwable interactables, i'm convinced EX throw will set up guaranteed unbreakable intractable set ups.

Just my early thoughts.

 

[Doombawkz]

So a teched EX Grab sets both players at nuetral.. No frame advantage.

And not teching a EX Grab grants a 50/50 am I right?

The first part is right (I think, in INJ the player who got teched out of was at -5 or something),
the second part is only half of the story, you can probably get more than just a 50/50 out of it but its character specific.

I have been thinking alot about this since they slightly demo it yesterday.
As of right now, i feel that it should require two bars, not one.

It also made be think about Ermac.
It seems Ermac B2 could possibly return as an unblockable. Does that mean Ermac could end a BnB in EX throw and then charge a B2 for an unblockable reset?
Also, with the throwable interactables, i'm convinced EX throw will set up guaranteed unbreakable intractable set ups.

Just my early thoughts.

I doubt you'll have that much advantage. That would be a gimmick I think.

 

[Braindead]

That's kind of what I said above actually. Because you know when your opponent might tech (as people grow familiar with each character's BnB's) you can change things up by doing different things, including maybe going for the throw earlier or something. Therefore, you can't know for a fact that your opponent is going to tech 100% of the time because you're preventing him from doing so by changing things up.

Braindead's question was: If I know for a fact with 100% certainty my opponent will tech the throw (not TRY to, but actually succeed in teching it), why would I do it? My point is there would likely be a meta in which you can keep him guessing, as I doubt NRS would make things as simply as "mash mid-combo and you're guaranteed to tech the throw every time." Not to mention, it's still a legit 50/50 as far as doing a forward or back throw (unless you can only forward throw in a combo or something).

It was a hypothetical situation. For the billionth time.

Bawkz was saying that there is actually an advantage if you read the tech and still go for the throw. I was trying to understand what it was. That's why I said that "if you know 100% for a fact that he's going to break, then..."

Please, nikkuh, habibi, zalmati, menshan allah read it again. You mis-understood me.

 

[Doombawkz]

It was a hypothetical situation. For the billionth time.

Bawkz was saying that there is actually an advantage if you read the tech and still go for the throw. I was trying to understand what it was. That's why I said that "if you know 100% for a fact that he's going to break, then..."

Please, nikkuh, habibi, zalmati, menshan allah read it again. You mis-understood me.

Did I get my point across, by chance?

 

[haketh]

MK throws aren't like other 2D games. You have to guess between forward and backward throw, and tech accordingly, and NRS doesn't use different animations for different throws. So you won't always tech, though you can have an educated guess as to which direction the throw will be in based on the position on the screen.

Also, the implementations of this can be huge, not just as a combo ender, but a way to set up positioning for yourself.

That still doesn't explain why they're techable to me like at all. Like even if their chances of teching are small due to how MK9/X throw tech works I won't be a fan of it, just personal bias at this point.

 

[Braindead]

Did I get my point across, by chance?

You did. I got you. I think other options would have more advantage, but I understood you completely.

 

[Doombawkz]

That still doesn't explain why they're techable to me like at all. Like even if their chances of teching are small due to how MK9/X throw tech works I won't be a fan of it, just personal bias at this point.

Lets approach it from a different avenue.
Why would people grab at all isn't the question, rather what purpose does grabbing suit that makes it an option in the first place?

 

[SLy]

That still doesn't explain why they're techable to me like at all. Like even if their chances of teching are small due to how MK9/X throw tech works I won't be a fan of it, just personal bias at this point.

they are techable to prevent offensive advantage

 

[coolwhip]

Why are you fixated on that sentence? It was a hypothetical situation I was discussing with Doombawkz. What the hell, man?!
You might want to read my conversation with Doombawkz again.

Reading some of his posts in this thread once was enough of a struggle.

Your point is your opponent will mash out of throws and it's not worth going for them.

My point is we don't know that because there might be ways to play around this.

The parts that I have serious issue with was the mashing two buttons at once to cover both options (because that's flat out false re: MK9) and the hypothetical suggestion above, even if it was hypothetical, since it's just impossible. By very definition, since it's a 50/50, they can't be useless. You still have to guess. I don't know how that point isn't obvious? Everything else, we'll just wait and see. Like I said, if it turns out it's not worth going for throws, I'll apologize. What more do you want? But we have to acknowledge hypotheticals (that are more likely than teching throws 100% of the time) such as the mind games this creates (for instance, I'm comboing you in the corner, you probably predict a forward throw since it makes more sense position wise, I do a back throw, MB it, and cross over punch to reverse position or something, or maybe it won't even have enough advantage to guarantee a jump. That's the point, there's too much we don't know), or another hypothetical such as MB throws giving so many options (again, potentially) that the ability to tech the throw mid-combo is a fair trade off.

 

[haketh]

Lets approach it from a different avenue.
Why would people grab at all isn't the question, rather what purpose does grabbing suit that makes it an option in the first place?

Reliable HKD+Better positioning usually in games that allow you to combo into throws, also a reliable way to end combos if you get a awkward confirm.

they are techable to prevent offensive advantage

I got the hit, I got my combo, why am I worrying about something other than Breaker when I got my reward for landing my hit.

 

[KiD INsAnitY]

@coolwhip Dude is a lost cause ,his name fits him well lol been reading the whole argument. Nothing but headache

 

[SLy]

Reliable HKD+Better positioning usually in games that allow you to combo into throws, also a reliable way to end combos if you get a awkward confirm.


I got the hit, I got my combo, why am I worrying about something other than Breaker when I got my reward for landing my hit.

Its an easier way to gain offensive advantage uplose just in case you want to reset the situation in your favor. You dont know if youre guaranteed oki that will continue your momemtum. Its very situational

 

[Doombawkz]

Reading some of his posts in this thread once was enough of a struggle.

Reliable HKD+Better positioning usually in games that allow you to combo into throws, also a reliable way to end combos if you get a awkward confirm.

But any move could do that, why grab specifically?
Grab is an option because it gives you that chance to restand, thats what makes it an option for some characters, right?
So if you consider it, the only reason someone would grab is because they want that restand. Thats the only time grab is a more optimal option than other, higher damage/higher advantage moves.

In that sense, its not a question of why because the why is as follows: They want a restand. Teching or not teching, grab achieves that result.
The only difference is how much advantage is gained and how much resource is lost as a result.

So the real question is: Why would someone spend meter?

 

[Braindead]

Reading some of his posts in this thread once was enough of a struggle.

Your point is your opponent will mash out of throws and it's not worth going for them.

My point is we don't know that because there might be ways to play around this.

The parts that I have serious issue with was the mashing two buttons at once to cover both options (because that's flat out false re: MK9) and the hypothetical suggestion above, even if it was hypothetical, since it's just impossible. By very definition, since it's a 50/50, they can't be useless. You still have to guess. I don't know how that point isn't obvious? Everything else, we'll just wait and see. Like I said, if it turns out it's not worth going for throws, I'll apologize. What more do you want? But we have to acknowledge hypotheticals (that are more likely than teching throws 100% of the time) such as the mind games this creates (for instance, I'm comboing you in the corner, you probably predict a forward throw since it makes more sense position wise, I do a back throw, MB it, and cross over punch to reverse position or something, or maybe it won't even have enough advantage to guarantee a jump. That's the point, there's too much we don't know), or another hypotheticals such as MB throws giving so many options (again, potentially) that the ability to tech the throw mid-combo is a fair trade off.

You still misunderstand...

Oh god I'm going to repeat this only one more time, if you can't figure it out again, then I don't know what to say. Usually I don't repeat myself this often, but for you I will:
Doombawkz said there's an advantage for you if you do a throw and your opponent techs it. OK?
I wanted to know what that advantage is. So I created a hypothetical situation, that you know for a fact that your opponent is going to tech the throw, and you still do a throw. What would your advantage be then?

I hope that cleared it up for you. Dear God please let it be clear.

 

[haketh]

Doombawkz plz stop talking till you learn how Fighting games actually work when you play against people.

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

Hmm, so they are techable mid combo...interesting

Also, technically that's another 50/50

Spoiler

That's not true, they said in the Ermac stream that you can tech grabs normally if they are mid-combo

 

[Braindead]

@coolwhip Dude is a lost cause ,his name fits him well lol been reading the whole argument. Nothing but headache

I'm a lost cause? Does this mean that I should drop out of the university? I have no hope?

 

[kabelfritz]

I doubt NRS would make things as simply as "mash mid-combo and you're guaranteed to tech the throw every time."

*cough* MKD breakers *cough* ... but that was long ago.

i gotta say if teching the throw during the juggle is possible AND not guaranteed, im agreeing more on spending just one meter for the MB throw. you take a double risk by trading damage for a possible throw and another meter for a possible mixup. now we only gotta know if a teched throw actually costs you meter.

 

[KiD INsAnitY]

I'm a lost cause?

On the topic at hand yes...

 

[Red Reaper]

I'm curious to see how it pans out once the game is released, whether back dashes have invisibility frames like in IGAU and if that plays into the meta.

Back dash INVISIBILITY?

No, sorry, that's Ares' teleport. I know it's hard to tell because his real backdash looks worse than his walk back.

 

[Doombawkz]

Doombawkz plz stop talking till you learn how Fighting games actually work when you play against people.

How am I even wrong in this situation? Are we not talking about MKX MB throws?
Also I know how fighting games work >:Y Even when playing against people.

now we only gotta know if a teched throw actually costs you meter.

41:30 onwards he talks about MB grab, if there is recent info on it its probably from there on.