Phosferrax's fraud Zatanna MU chart

[M2Dave]

What makes it in DS's favor?

Low gunshots.

 

[Youphemism]

I haven't played the Zatanna matchup as much with either BG or WW but I'm cool with those numbers.

When you take away Bane's oki he has to work so much harder to get his damage than Zatanna, but once she catches her shes got the vortex and usually quite a bit of meter to extend it.

Once she catches her?

 

[kevkopdx]

I honestly think it's 5-5 and maybe even in lobos favor

agreed, this exactly... of course decay is pretty high level... but playing him changed my mind about this mu

 

[IMakeItL00kC00L]

I'm surprised you think she loses to Deathstroke. I've always felt that it was even. Thoughts?

Also, glad you put sinestro as 5-5. Sorry @IMakeItL00kC00L that matchup is even.

I'll need to play more zatannas to further my xp. @Phosferrax are you in xbl?

 

[Eldriken]

I'll need to play more zatannas to further my xp. @Phosferrax are you in xbl?

He is and his GT is the same as his name here.

 

[IMakeItL00kC00L]

He is and his GT is the same as his name here.

Thnx

 

[Drizzle]

Honestly it seems like Wonder Woman would body Zatanna pretty badly. Her zoning is kinda meaningless mid-screen because of parry. After parry WoWo can do iaDG for free, unless there's a way to punish it that I'm not aware of. On block, Zatanna's options are pretty bad as nothing reaches unless WoWo is sloppy. She even has trouble punishing bad ones if I'm not mistaken. Parrying also makes MB rings a waste so there really isn't much to worry about. You can still teleport but you're not really accomplishing much because half your game (rings) isn't that effective. At full-screen you can bait parries by arcing rings upward and whiff punishing the parry with trance. Of course Zat loses in footsies and I don't know that she has a good way to anti-air j3. Zat has good wake-ups with teleport and bf1, but they can still be punished on a read, and it's not a risk to do a jump back or jump forward 3. It just doesn't feel like Zatanna is ever at an advantage in the match-up.

 

[FOREVER EL1TE]

Nightwing vs Zatanna is 5-5 i believe. Why you believe its 6-4?

 

[EMPR_MURK]

Nightwing vs Zatanna is 5-5 i believe. Why you believe its 6-4?

Bruh u think every mu is 5-5 lol

 

[FOREVER EL1TE]

Bruh u think every mu is 5-5 lol

Leave me alone im an uplayer. Lol

 

[dagga]

6-4 lobo? You're saying it's in zatanna's favor?

@Decay Can i get some games in vs your lobo? I've always thought it's in her favor and want to check it out.
My GT is Daggasaurus

 

[kevkopdx]

@Decay Can i get some games in vs your lobo? I've always thought it's in her favor and want to check it out.
My GT is Daggasaurus

i wish i could watch these matches if you do... decay is fun to play and your Z is great

 

[Phosferrax]

I'm surprised you think she loses to Deathstroke. I've always felt that it was even. Thoughts?

DS just has an easier time dictating the match. He punishes trance, and if he spaces himself correctly he can safely check her after he blocks a ring toss. The speed of gun shots gives him and edge due to Zatanna's slow start-up of ring toss. She can block a gun shot at some distances, try to throw a ring and still get hit with a trade.

Then he has much better footsies, a better d2, and better jumping attacks. Therefore, it's not like she can block a gun shot, dash in and then start contesting him, as she gets beaten in this area as well.

DS's post-knockdown mix-ups come from jumping attacks, which negate the use of wake-up kicks, and can reverse the teleport input. The issue is, Zatanna can adapt to the teleport reversals, which gets her out of wake-up pressure which is always fine, but then she puts distance between herself and DS and puts her back to where she loses the neutral anyway. And because DS is jumping in on wake-up, there is no risk of getting blown up by kicks.

The meter game is in DS's favour as well, so he often can beat her clash.

DS really can make Zat come to him which is better for him anyway, he just has an easier time everywhere on the screen.

 

[Phosferrax]

Honestly it seems like Wonder Woman would body Zatanna pretty badly. Her zoning is kinda meaningless mid-screen because of parry. After parry WoWo can do iaDG for free, unless there's a way to punish it that I'm not aware of. On block, Zatanna's options are pretty bad as nothing reaches unless WoWo is sloppy. She even has trouble punishing bad ones if I'm not mistaken. Parrying also makes MB rings a waste so there really isn't much to worry about. You can still teleport but you're not really accomplishing much because half your game (rings) isn't that effective. At full-screen you can bait parries by arcing rings upward and whiff punishing the parry with trance. Of course Zat loses in footsies and I don't know that she has a good way to anti-air j3. Zat has good wake-ups with teleport and bf1, but they can still be punished on a read, and it's not a risk to do a jump back or jump forward 3. It just doesn't feel like Zatanna is ever at an advantage in the match-up.

If she reads iaDG, she can make it whiff with f3 and punish it at certain ranges. She gets beaten in footsies for sure, but this isn't a mu where Zat has to contest footsies so it only makes a difference in the corner. Wowo has to get in and that's where Zat contests her as well which she has good options. She gets beaten in damage though, and the meter game really hurts Zatanna when it comes to clashing.

Ring zoning isn't relevant though because trait zoning is the primary tool for Zat, as WoWo can't parry low shot (iirc) or pillar. Trait is what keeps Zat in the MU I think, although Wowo still has good counter options. This is where Zat get's most of her meter for pushblock, vortex and mb tele to get out of the corner.

After a block b113, even though she is at minus the guessing game still favours WoWo because of Zat's shit range, and j3 is a problem, but at least it's easier to mb b3 than j2.

Zat never really has it better than WoWo, but her runaway, trait and subsequent meter build are the things that keep Zat competitive in the MU. It isn't a case of being patient for WoWo and bullying them into the corner, because if you're patient against trait you'll lose a lot of life and give Zat a lot of meter to get out of the corner and keep you chasing her.

 

[Phosferrax]

Nightwing vs Zatanna is 5-5 i believe. Why you believe its 6-4?

Her runaway keeps him chasing her and he doesn't have as good of options to avoid the zoning. Although I believe with practice that this MU could be even once NW is more aware of the correct approach and playstyle. For example, when I play most NW's they make the mistake of going into staff stance. He gets destroyed badly by Zat's trait when he is in staff. She doesn't have a hard time getting meter in this MU for mb rings into trait or pushblock.

It's just tricky for NW at the moment because he doesn't have as good an offensive presence in escrima so when he does catch up to her, he is more limited. He doesn't get oki in escrima, so if you try to end a combo into a staff stance knockdown, you have to be so careful not to let her get away or else you're going to get fucked by her trait.

 

[FOREVER EL1TE]

@Phosferrax
Nightwing can counter zone Zatanna enough that he doesent have to rush her as hard as before.
Even when he gets in escrima upclose. He can still play oki into a 50/50 or 33/33. Basically, a FG(Flying grayson) beats back teleport. D1 beats front teleport. And MB staff pound catches teleport sometimes. You might not get hit but I'll be plus 18.
Escrima destroys trait. And staff destroys trait upclose.

 

[Phosferrax]

@Phosferrax
Nightwing can counter zone Zatanna enough that he doesent have to rush her as hard as before.
Even when he gets in escrima upclose. He can still play oki into a 50/50 or 33/33. Basically, a FG(Flying grayson) beats back teleport. D1 beats front teleport. And MB staff pound catches teleport sometimes. You might not get hit but I'll be plus 18.
Escrima destroys trait. And staff destroys trait upclose.

He loses the zoning; between trait, mb rings, trance, and teleport she has enough ways to deal with NW's counter zoning because it's too risky for him. He loses in escrima zoning because the risk/reward is skewed against him, even though his projectile does slightly more chip and 2% more damage on hit.

It's not like all that stuff on knockdown is without risk. Cards beats FG, which lets her get trait which then fucks staff stance. The same comes from just blocking FG and then mb ring. d1 gets blown up by kicks, and mb staff pound gets beat by behind teleport which allows her to whiff punish you. So all that knockdown meta game is even, not in his favour.

Escrima does not destroy trait, a NW's floaty jump makes it quite easy to anti air him if he's jumping full screen to avoid trait shots. All he can do is mb wing dings, which can be anti air'd or avoid with teleport to allow a whiff punish. Hardly destroying trait. Staff stance can blow it up point blank by there is never a situation where Zatanna in trait is going to be playing a 'neutral' game which allows you to waltz up and standing 1 her. You're getting bombarded with trait shots when in staff stance, you don't get a chance to playing a footsie game with her unless the Zatanna used trait at a bad time.

Also Zatanna can jump at NW for days which I feel is a problem for him.

 

[Phosferrax]

A couple things, zatanna's d2, in my experience, anti airs Ravens j2 just fine. Raven's lift as an aa isn't great. Yeah Raven outfootsies zatanna BADLY. Zatanna can't do anything to keep Raven from walking forward and forcing her to play footsies where Raven destroys zatanna. So yeah I agree with that.

Ravens trait is useless against zatanna. Teleport is faster than soul crush so after pillar Raven can either do another special or wait and punish a teleport. There's no reason to play this game when Raven dominates the footsie game as well as she does. If Raven is using trait on you, that's a good thing for you not her.

Honestly I don't even use reflect in this match up. It just causes another pointless mix up game. It's much easier to just block & keep walking in and forcing zatanna to play footsies.

It's injustice. Zatanna will get meter.

I played deg at evo in a short set & beat him. So i think I know the MU fairly well. I highly doubt it's 3-7 but idk. The mu is probably very under explored.

Actually I went to test and trait pillar into soul crush doesn't beat teleport so my bad. But with her d2, if you space the jump 2 to the similar distance as the starting position of the match Zatanna virtually can't d2 it on reaction. She can mb b3 though.

And you can reflect, just don't bother meter burning it. It stops you from taking the chip damage, gives a bit of meter and there are no distances that allow zatanna to teleport and beat a d1 from you. The only mixup is if she mb teleport but that's a constant anyway but I see what you mean. If you reflect her rings you stop her from getting the meter she desperately needs, so she can only get it by getting beaten up.

 

[Blind_Ducky]

Actually I went to test and trait pillar into soul crush doesn't beat teleport so my bad. But with her d2, if you space the jump 2 to the similar distance as the starting position of the match Zatanna virtually can't d2 it on reaction. She can mb b3 though.

And you can reflect, just don't bother meter burning it. It stops you from taking the chip damage, gives a bit of meter and there are no distances that allow zatanna to teleport and beat a d1 from you. The only mixup is if she mb teleport but that's a constant anyway but I see what you mean. If you reflect her rings you stop her from getting the meter she desperately needs, so she can only get it by getting beaten up.

The chip is irrelevant. Id rather just take the chip & continues walking in. I'll reflect stuff if I need meter but that's about it. I'm not scared of zatanna with meter so whatever lol.

 

[HeroesNZ]

Her runaway keeps him chasing her and he doesn't have as good of options to avoid the zoning.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Nightwing can just forward dash after each ring toss. His dash (one of the fastest in the game, hehe) completely escapes Puppet Master too. The only thing he can't do is dash after MB Rings. Zatanna can keep running away if she wants but she'll just be running herself into the corner where her only escape will be teleport behind (which can be blown up unless MB'd, but even then it means that she's in Nightwing's face which isn't where she wants to be). Even in Staff, Nightwing can dash for free, then reversal GP after a blocked Puppet Master, after which he's +9.

He gets destroyed badly by Zat's trait when he is in staff.

Not really. All NW has to do is jump over/duck one of the trait shots and GP which knocks her out of trait. Only problem is that Nightwing still gets hit by the trait shot.

It's just tricky for NW at the moment because he doesn't have as good an offensive presence in escrima so when he does catch up to her, he is more limited. He doesn't get oki in escrima, so if you try to end a combo into a staff stance knockdown, you have to be so careful not to let her get away or else you're going to get fucked by her trait.

Nightwing's B2 far out-ranges Zatanna's S3, her longest-reaching normal. B2 Flipkick crosses up on block from all ranges on Zatanna so while you're focused on blocking that, Nightwing can start throwing out B2 Scatterbombs, just B2 into NJ3 or 112, or even B2 Staff Spin. Zatanna also can't punish wingdings from most ranges so Nightwing can abuse his J3 and when Zatanna starts trying to D2 he can wingding safely without having to MB them.

As for wakeups, Nightwing can just Flying Grayson after a Staff-Spin HKD. If she teleports away, NW stays in her face. If she blocks, NW is around +1 and within S1 range. If she multi-kicks, FG completely avoids it and she's forced to block a GP. If she teleports behind, she's still within S1 range.

 

[FOREVER EL1TE]

@Phosferrax
If you have Xbox I will gladly play you to show you how.

 

[Peckapowa]

1. I think martian beats her worst than 3-7

2. Can she punish aquaman ftd with reversal ex teleport into 5 frame jab??? perhaps i am wrong.

 

[@MylesWright_]

Every character in the game seems to go 5-5 with killer frost 'now' as well as 7-3 Joker

 

[Drizzle]

If she reads iaDG, she can make it whiff with f3 and punish it at certain ranges. She gets beaten in footsies for sure, but this isn't a mu where Zat has to contest footsies so it only makes a difference in the corner. Wowo has to get in and that's where Zat contests her as well which she has good options. She gets beaten in damage though, and the meter game really hurts Zatanna when it comes to clashing.

Ring zoning isn't relevant though because trait zoning is the primary tool for Zat, as WoWo can't parry low shot (iirc) or pillar. Trait is what keeps Zat in the MU I think, although Wowo still has good counter options. This is where Zat get's most of her meter for pushblock, vortex and mb tele to get out of the corner.

After a block b113, even though she is at minus the guessing game still favours WoWo because of Zat's shit range, and j3 is a problem, but at least it's easier to mb b3 than j2.

Zat never really has it better than WoWo, but her runaway, trait and subsequent meter build are the things that keep Zat competitive in the MU. It isn't a case of being patient for WoWo and bullying them into the corner, because if you're patient against trait you'll lose a lot of life and give Zat a lot of meter to get out of the corner and keep you chasing her.

From my testing f3 doesn't work if the demigoddess is instant. Even if it isn't, you have to be holding the f3 for a long time to go under it. In that case it's kind of obvious what you're looking for there and shouldn't work that often.

What good options does Zatanna have if it's just teleport and trait? You can't really win games that way when you're just running, and she can be knocked out of trait with air tiara so that's not as effective either. So basically you can't throw rings, your trait use is limited and teleporting away isn't getting you any damage. How does Zatanna get me in a vortex if she can't zone effectively? Also, if you try to MB f3 a j3, WoWo can cancel into divepunch so that's not foolproof.

 

[Espio]

@Espio

A rarely played MU, but in theory against a competant Hawkgirl I think she can give the magic bitch trouble.

Also I don't see why it's only 4-6 against Raven when Zatanna really can't do much. Care to explain your thoughts on it?

To add to this, outside of theory, I've played this match up with a lot of Zatanna mains (some of whom used to main Hawkgirl so they know the match up reasonably well) and honestly, I feel Zatanna has a huge problem with mobility strong characters that she cannot contain well.

Rings can be evaded and trait nullifies rings, puppet master and a lot of trait zoning if Hawkgirl flies within a sweet spot range. It's hard for Zatanna to regain that space because mace charge while in the air can keep up with teleport away among other things. Hawkgirl can also counterzone/zone her back if done strategically.

Up close, Hawkgirl can bully her super well in footsies since her down 1 and down 2 are faster and have more reach than pretty much every option she has. MB mace toss can be good for catching teleport aways too. Cancels are good for baits too.

This is not to say Zatanna can never zone her because sometimes she can, but Hawkgirl in general has a lot of ways to get around her core game whereas Zatanna doesn't truly limit Hawkgirl's chip, mobility, pressure or even air game in a notable enough way to be a straight up 5-5. I fully believe Hawkgirl dictates the pace of this match up, but it's not a runaway win. Slight edge to me.